Matching loyal and traitor legions

[Gamiel]

At ca. 50.00 of this pod Heresy Grad School - Dark Angels 3 - Hosts of the Legion do they talk about why they think the IW and IF are not the similar, and at ca. 53.30 do they talk about why WS and NL are counterparts.

[Valkyrion]

It's not that much of a leap to compare Blood Angels to World Eaters, even if some of that comparison actually comes from 40k rather than 30k. 

Similar rules, similar colours, similar specialists, similar fighting style, the word blood, the word rage, the angel and the red angel (and the other red angel)

The blood angels have nobility and melancholy against the world eaters demented fury, but the comparisons are valid.

 

The Blood Angels could also draw parallels with the Emperor's Children (artistry, nobility, arrogance) and the Thousand Sons (arrogance, warrior scholars, nobility, artistry, psychic aptitude).

 

Very tenuously you could link them with the Night Lords as a dark simulacrum, but not sure that really flies. 

[Karhedron]

Very tenuously you could link them with the Night Lords as a dark simulacrum, but not sure that really flies.

If you read the HH novels, it is not such a tenuous link. Sanguinius and Kurze both could see the future but whereas Sanguinius focussed on bringing about the best outcome from his visions, Kurze fixated on the darkest version of the future and slowly drove himeself insane by doing so.

 

What the HH novels have done is try to show that the Primarchs and their Legions were not simply paired off into loyalist and traitor counterparts. There was a complex web of personal relationships, rivalries and animosities between various legions.

 

Also some loyalist Primarchs did not get on well. Russ and Khan didn't like each other, despite their superficial similarities. Russ also had issues with the Lion and Magnus. Basically half the rivalries seem to involve Russ.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Not gonna lie part of why I love wolves is that Russ was such a handful.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Jorin Helm-splitter

[Gamiel]

DA / AL – both are full of secrets upon secrets

 

DA / IW – both have done horrible things that go thankless/unmentioned

 

IF / EC – duelling culture, individual honour, BDSM winks

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I really like the idea of the Death Guard and Sallies being the opposite sides of the same coin. Both had reputations for taking horrendous losses in attritional battles.

 

One because they valued the lives of their troops so little, the other because they valued the lives of those they were fighting for so highly.

[War of the Eagle]

Ive always seen it like this

 

Blood Angels v Emperors children - pretty boy artists

Ultramarine v Word bearers - prefer words over action

Iron Warriors v Imperial fists - siege and fortify

Salamanders v Nightlords - get to peoples hearts psychologically good and bad.

Raven guard v Alpha legion - prefer to not be seen

White scars v world Eaters - go fast and bloody

Dark Angels v Sons of horos - highly trained perfectionists

Iron Hands v Deathguard - replaces original flesh with something tougher.

[WARMASTER_]

Ive always seen it like this

 

Blood Angels v Emperors children - pretty boy artists

Ultramarine v Word bearers - prefer words over action

Iron Warriors v Imperial fists - siege and fortify

Salamanders v Nightlords - get to peoples hearts psychologically good and bad.

Raven guard v Alpha legion - prefer to not be seen

White scars v world Eaters - go fast and bloody

Dark Angels v Sons of horos - highly trained perfectionists

Iron Hands v Deathguard - replaces original flesh with something tougher.

This is the best I’ve seen

[phandaal]

Ive always seen it like this

 

Blood Angels v Emperors children - pretty boy artists

Ultramarine v Word bearers - prefer words over action

Iron Warriors v Imperial fists - siege and fortify

Salamanders v Nightlords - get to peoples hearts psychologically good and bad.

Raven guard v Alpha legion - prefer to not be seen

White scars v world Eaters - go fast and bloody

Dark Angels v Sons of horos - highly trained perfectionists

Iron Hands v Deathguard - replaces original flesh with something tougher.

 

Feels like a stretch.

 

Examples:

 

World Eaters are berserkers while White Scars are sci-fi horsemen. "Going fast" applies broadly to both but World Eaters have little association with lightning attacks. They just smash into things. White Scars are defined by their speed.

 

Salamanders are "good guys" but their defining characteristic is being volcanic masters of the forge. Their goodness would be a counterpart to any of the traitor legions, not just Night Lords.

 

Dark Angels are monster hunting monks, not perfectionists. Sons of Horus are not perfectionists - Emperor's Children are. Any Legion is highly trained and wants to be the best at what they do.

 

 

Death Guard do not replace their original flesh - they are proud of how tough they are and challenge their flesh to be even better.

[War of the Eagle]

It is kind of a stretch. I feel like most legions take 2 aspects and combine them rather than have 1 straight mirror. I just pointed out more oposites of the same idea.

 

Deathguard are made resilient while still retaining flesh, Ironhands by replacing it.

 

World eaters are fast without tactics white scars are fast with tactics.

 

I will say the Salies and Nightlords are more opposites as in their main niche in the lore than anything concrete. Sure a few good legions forge stuff but not often are know for being extra nice to people. And sure other evil legions slaughter people but nightlorda is a focal point on how it effects people.

 

 

Tho im pretty sure the books describe the DarkAngels as perfectionists. Theres a scene where they are on parade for the Ultra marines and the Ultra Marines are kinda rolling their eyes at how over the top perfect the DarkAngels are.

 

I would be maybe change to

 

Emperors children v Darkangels - perfectionist swordmasters

 

Sons of Horos v blood angels - charismatic leader

 

Also forgot

 

Spacewolves vs Thousand sons - brain vs brawn

Edited March 29, 2022 by War of the Eagle

[phandaal]

For this I was thinking in terms of the Legions' defining characteristics. As others have said, not all have a direct comparison.

 

Some also have rivalries that are unconnected to their Legion's defining characteristic, like Ultramarines and Word Bearers.

[Medjugorje]

 

 

 

Why do blood angels keep getting lumped with world eaters? Neither legion had any indication of being rivals or anything of the sort. Wolves and world eaters had more rivalry during the heresy.

I think it goes back to the fact that they had almost identical rules in 3rd edition and some fans have looooong memories.

 

I absolutely disagree. Black Templars were much closer to World eaters back then

 

 

Look at the 3rd ed codices. Blood Angels and World Eaters both had to roll a dice for each unit at the start of every turn. If they failed (or succeeeded depending on your point of view), they had to run towards the enemy. I don't think BTs had a similar rule. BAs and WEs also both had the sam rule for +1S on the charge IIRC. Again BTs did not get that.

 

BT had mechanics to run into the enemy too. Both had no access to whirlwinds and devastors.

[Dracos]

Not being rude just curious why BT are being brought up occasionally? Not exactly one of Big Daddy Legionnaires we’re they? Edited March 29, 2022 by Dracos

[Marshal Mittens]

Not being rude just curious why BT are being brought up occasionally? Not exactly one of Big Daddy Legionnaires we’re they?

Templars were Imperial Fists, but they fought very differently than their Imperial Fist brothers, and Sigismund was a very well respected Marine, even among Primarchs and traitors. Probably one of the few Space Marines to fight a Primarch and not die too, though he did lose.

 

While the Black Templars were not a Legion, they were around during the Great Crusade and played a huge role in the defense of Terra, and being in different colors than their parent legion, seem unique enough to mention in the discussion.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I don't particularly think it's useful in this case to distinguish separately from the VIIth legion, but as a component of that Legion. For example, we can lean into their melee aspect and easily start relating to say, Fafnir Rann's elements of the Legion.

 

Templar brethren still keep part of their core legion colors in yellow. There are plenty of other elements of Legions that wear different colors, notably many destroyers wear black armor, Deathwing wear a mixed bone/black armor, etc. So that they don't look part of the Imperial Fists at the time is an incorrect statement.

Edited March 29, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[BrainFireBob]

Used to be there were some 1:1s, then they expanded it.

 

I'd guess it's 2:1 if they have it mapped at all

 

Dark Angels

Vs

Alpha Legion

Vs

Raven Guard

Vs

Night Lords

Vs

Blood Angels

Vs

Emperor's Children

Vs

Iron Hands

Vs

Iron Warriors

Vs

Imperial Fists

Vs

Sons of Horus?

 

 

Etc.

Edited March 30, 2022 by BrainFireBob

[Dracos]

Oh that’s good

[WrathOfTheLion]

I think Dark Angels and Night Lords should still be kept together. There's a constant theme in 30k, continuing through even into 40k.

 

They have their stalwart opposition to the terror tactics, and that continues into 40k with their resistance to the leadership debuffs. So this is a nice foil there that's represented both in the lore with their conflict in the Thramas Crusade, all the way through until now, even in the form of gameplay mechanics.

 

If one thinks of them as some degree of monster especially as Curze degraded, then you even get some of the Calibanite monster hunter aspect coming into play.

 

You might also strongly contrast or foil them with the Sons of Horus. Horus wanted the recognition for his efforts, culminating with the Triumph of Ullanor. The 1st Legion basically never got recognition for a lot of its campaigns, which many times needed to be sealed off from records.

Edited March 30, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[phandaal]

Night Lords are more of a counterpart for White Scars. Similar combat style focusing on lightning-fast attacks, very different approach and goals.

 

In terms of "monsters," one would think Fulgrim or Horus would fit that bill better, considering Horus is Horus and Fulgrim was a daemon before the end of the Heresy.

 

What I am getting from all of this is there really are not that many direct counterparts between loyalist and traitor legions. Aside from obvious ones like Iron Warriors/Imperial Fists, other associations are tenuous and debatable at best.

[Medjugorje]

Not being rude just curious why BT are being brought up occasionally? Not exactly one of Big Daddy Legionnaires we’re they?

we are in a 40k subforum - not 30k. 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

 

 

Not being rude just curious why BT are being brought up occasionally? Not exactly one of Big Daddy Legionnaires we’re they?

we are in a 40k subforum - not 30k.

It was in Amicus when you started...