Traitor Ultramarines Allegedly

[Guest]

With that leak of the new Ultramarines Warlord traits..

 

We have the option of doing traitors, which with the new Beakies coming its very tempting to do a Traitor Ultramarine force.

 

Question is how would you alter the Ultra symbol...

 

Thinking Khorne blessed...

 

 

Obviously its a primaris but imagine him in all his beaky glory.

 

 

[ToyShip]

This is what I came up with.

[Pearson73]

@ToyShip That's awesome!

[Cruor Vault]

Where are these Ultramarines Leaks located?

[N1SB]

I really like the red helmet to go with the XIIIth Legion's mark of censure, but the Eye of Horus, I didn't even think of that.  That's brilliant because it'd so be something Horus would do, to find some humiliated group of Ultramarines and appeal to their sense of martial pride, awarding them his own symbol, and gradually luring them to his side against their Primarch and Emperor.

 

Now you got me thinking about doing a traitor Ultramarines.

[Spagunk]

Where are these Ultramarines Leaks located?

There is not one single source. Bits and pieces are scattered on various 4chan and Reddit posts. That said, there is some hesitation to just blindly post everything all at once because GW is hunting for the leakers really bad.

[ToyShip]

So, how do we make a fluffy army out of this idea? Ultramarines are known for their interlocking tactics, emphasis on rigid command, and theoreticals vs practicals. How do you view this through a darker lense? Instead of enlightening worlds and building their infrastructure up to be model Imperial worlds, do you mirror this and just have them do the same for Horus? Or do you go down a darker path where they are so convinced of their superiority and ways of thinking that they enslave populations and destroy civilization? Lots to think about there, I really feel like there is something here.

 

How many Ultramarines do you think would be swayed? Perhaps they start down the path after Calth, viewing the Primarch as weak for failing Ultramar so thoroughly? Or maybe they’re part of the group that wasn’t at Calth and was viewed in a less favorable light because they weren’t there. That could sow the seeds.

 

Let’s talk about it!

[Brofist]

Gulliman is a tyrant building his own empire instead of helping mankind. He only has is own interests in mind, because he knew the Emperor lied to us about everything. For the warmaster!

[Guest]

So, how do we make a fluffy army out of this idea? Ultramarines are known for their interlocking tactics, emphasis on rigid command, and theoreticals vs practicals. How do you view this through a darker lense? Instead of enlightening worlds and building their infrastructure up to be model Imperial worlds, do you mirror this and just have them do the same for Horus? Or do you go down a darker path where they are so convinced of their superiority and ways of thinking that they enslave populations and destroy civilization? Lots to think about there, I really feel like there is something here.

 

How many Ultramarines do you think would be swayed? Perhaps they start down the path after Calth, viewing the Primarch as weak for failing Ultramar so thoroughly? Or maybe they’re part of the group that wasn’t at Calth and was viewed in a less favorable light because they weren’t there. That could sow the seeds.

 

Let’s talk about it!

Maybe a few companies or even a Chapter would be good?

 

Ideas why?

 

Could have been with the Sons of Horus or even the Word Bearers for a long time.

A censured Captain or Chapter Master.

Maybe a Captain who stood against Gulliman for Imperium Secundus.

Or something like the Raven Guards Nomad-predation fleets.

[Gamiel]

So, how do we make a fluffy army out of this idea? Ultramarines are known for their interlocking tactics, emphasis on rigid command, and theoreticals vs practicals. How do you view this through a darker lense? Instead of enlightening worlds and building their infrastructure up to be model Imperial worlds, do you mirror this and just have them do the same for Horus? Or do you go down a darker path where they are so convinced of their superiority and ways of thinking that they enslave populations and destroy civilization? Lots to think about there, I really feel like there is something here.

The Ultramarines are empire builders, of the better sourt (comparably speaking), dark version of that would be that they do their eampire building by stuff like killing all the males of a conquered world and enslaving all the women and children (Athen did this to a fellow state that wanted to stay neutral in the brewing conflict against... Sparta and it's allies, I think it was) - in a Wh40k setting that could be killing all combatants, and their families, and turning the rest of the population into slaves.

 

Or they empire they build is one that just drain the conquered worlds of resources to indulge their own hedonism.

[1ncarnadine]

So, how do we make a fluffy army out of this idea? Ultramarines are known for their interlocking tactics, emphasis on rigid command, and theoreticals vs practicals. How do you view this through a darker lense? Instead of enlightening worlds and building their infrastructure up to be model Imperial worlds, do you mirror this and just have them do the same for Horus? Or do you go down a darker path where they are so convinced of their superiority and ways of thinking that they enslave populations and destroy civilization? Lots to think about there, I really feel like there is something here.

 

How many Ultramarines do you think would be swayed? Perhaps they start down the path after Calth, viewing the Primarch as weak for failing Ultramar so thoroughly? Or maybe they’re part of the group that wasn’t at Calth and was viewed in a less favorable light because they weren’t there. That could sow the seeds.

 

Let’s talk about it!

Definitely some great ideas here. I think Calth is a great fulcrum point, one way or another. Another one would be the declaration of Imperium Secundus and the uplifting of Sanguinius, a false Emperor. And if these sons of the Emperor can act so flawed... wait, was the Emperor so righteous after all?

 

One more obvious source of unrest is going to be the Nemesis Chapter and their Destroyers. And further, I think another faction in the XIIIth Legion that may seem an unexpected mine for treachery is the Vigil Opertii. Maybe there are some elements that are tired of doing the wetwork for the glory of Ultramar, and based on their own actions and observations have decided it's fairly bunk and that at least the forces of the Warmaster are honest in what they're doing.

 

Another fun option: perhaps a more remote Ultramarines recruitment & implantation facility has been fundamentally compromised by Alpha Legion operatives. It's still churning out Ultramarines with their gene seed, but their indoctrination process has been undermined with insidious messaging. Think the Bequin series of Inquisitor novels, but with Space Marines. Heck, the Alpha Legion managed to get a kill team all the way to Guilliman's own offices. After that, the Primarch would likely root it out quickly, but not before there's a force of delusional Astartes carrying his gene seed and the Warmaster's banner running amok in the stars. Perhaps the Alpha Legion aren't involved at all, and it's just that disillusioned, embittered Vigil Opertii operative going rogue for his own purposes. Or an operative willingly contacted Alpha Legion operatives and facilitated the treachery.

 

With any given option with rogue Ultramarines, there's also always the chance they do see where the majority of Traitors are going re: Chaos and decide to bounce, going fully piratical or carving out independent fiefdoms as warlords, in the Blackshields vein. Or perhaps they are caught in the web of the dark gods but won't explicitly align with the Warmaster, pursuing their own twisted goals? A dark empire, an Imperium Tertius meant to rise above all others (and of course things go horribly wrong).

 

And if one did want to go FULL EVIL with traitor Ultras, how would that look? Which dark god would they fall under the sway of, if any single one specifically?

 

Of course, there's already a model for a Legion going off the rails. One that had both a rigid chain of command and overweening pride. Let's say your Ultramarines fall to Slaanesh anyway. How would it look different from how the Emperor's Children fell? Would some Ultramarines get hooked on warp drugs? Ultradderall? Theoretical: this compound allows us to analyze more theoreticals at a higher rate than ever before and pursue more appropriate practical solutions. Practical: JUICE UPPPP. Why didn't Guilliman let us employ this? It's just chemicals like everything else. And it brings us closer to the great cognition of our mighty Primarch. What could be wrong with that? But we need more. And more. And more... We should build a shadow empire that makes this stuff. OH wait, it gets better when you mix in some blood? OK, well, we'll just use criminals and it will... oh, we're already out of criminals. But we need it now. Need it bad. OK, just use some of the less desirables... we definitely won't go aaany further

 

Tzeentch could provide an interesting route to a fall, as well. A group of Ultramarines pursue a Word Bearers flotilla from Calth, but end up lost and far from Ultramar. They find themselves in a relatively peaceful region of space and all seems right, until they finally contact a local system and find that the region has declared for the Warmaster. They set themselves on a campaign of vengeance, and assured of their own self-righteousness and still traumatized in the wake of the events of Calth, begin to eliminate the treasonous enemy with reckless abandon. Of course, they're setting in to civilian populations who have little realistic care who rules them as long as they get to go about their lives. Before they know it, they've attacked an actual Imperial installation and have been declared Excommunicate Traitoris by an agent of the Sigillite himself. Seeking answers and allies, they encounter a band of fellow outcasts: the exiles of dead Prospero, a band of the Thousand Sons, who tell them of the barbarity of Leman Russ and the wrath of the Emperor. Surrounded by lies, past the point of sanity, and with nowhere else to turn to, these Ultramarines take their first true step down a long and dark path.

 

Another Tzeentchy idea is that same ship above has carried with it a sinister strain of the scrap code from the Calth orbital yards. Their techmarine cadre are, one by one, subtly manipulated by fluctuations in the noosphere, and unfortunately, the force's captain is long time friends with a Forge Lord, master of ship's engineering. The captain suffers an unfortunate accident, and the Forge Lord has to take command... and now proclaims he has received revelations from the Nine-fold Omnissiah, Lord of the Theoretical/Practical Interface and Divine Being of Fortune and Light. The warp and the Emperor are one and the same. The Word Bearers saw part of this lie but their reaction was unfortunate. They couldn't get over the events of Monarchia. And of course, the Emperor set them on that path so how could it not be what he truly desired in the first place? They didn't really understand. The Ultramarines shall carry the real truth forward in a more practical manner befitting their mien. They're not insane now at all. It's fine. It's totally fine.

 

Most of these ideas can be cut apart and recombined in different ways and spliced with other ideas, to taste. And some of these ideas could be modified to work with, say, traitor Salamanders or Blood Angels or what have you. I've always thought traitors among the loyalists are among of the more interesting and unexplored areas of the Heresy as far as projects go. On a certain level, you have to enjoy putting your own characters on challenging paths and watching them suffer for it, though.

[ToyShip]

Quick reply, I will respond more later, there is some really good ideas here. But check this out:

I guess it's happening...

Edited March 31, 2022 by ToyShip

[Guest]

Quick reply, I will respond more later, there is some really good ideas here. But check this out:

I guess it's happening...

Oh that works... Guess an army of Traitor Ultra Beakies is happening :)

[ToyShip]

Quick reply, I will respond more later, there is some really good ideas here. But check this out:

I guess it's happening...

Oh that works... Guess an army of Traitor Ultra Beakies is happening

I used the Eye of Horus from the AT Knights Transfer Sheet in case you were curious!

[Guest]

I used the Eye of Horus from the AT Knights Transfer Sheet in case you were curious!

 

Excellent Toyship.

 

Whats your reasoning for yours being on the side of Horus?

[Claws and Effect]

 

 

 

I used the Eye of Horus from the AT Knights Transfer Sheet in case you were curious!

 

Excellent Toyship.

 

Whats your reasoning for yours being on the side of Horus?

There doesn't really need to be a spelled out reason, to be honest.

 

It could be as simple as a Captain agreed with Horus' viewpoint and defected, taking his company with him.

 

I'm planning on doing some traitor Raven Guard as Terran Legionaires that stuck with Horus after Corax banished them (a splinter of the Ashen Claws that never left with the rest).

[Noserenda]

Honestly i think its better when changing allegiance to just lean into the existing tropes rather than inverting them. So for Ultramarines have a Praetor doing a Guiliman in miniature on another front, whether that is being super efficient/organised to the extent of inhumanity or loyal to the wrong superior or forming their own Imperium tertius in miniature because logical both main factions are going to destroy each other, or hell, taking the stance that Ultramarines should fight for Horus as a continuation of the Legion if they lose.

Loads of ideas :) 

[Guest]

 

 

 

I used the Eye of Horus from the AT Knights Transfer Sheet in case you were curious!

Excellent Toyship.

 

Whats your reasoning for yours being on the side of Horus?

There doesn't really need to be a spelled out reason, to be honest.

 

It could be as simple as a Captain agreed with Horus' viewpoint and defected, taking his company with him.

 

I'm planning on doing some traitor Raven Guard as Terran Legionaires that stuck with Horus after Corax banished them (a splinter of the Ashen Claws that never left with the rest).

 

You are right ofc I suppose its just I always try to justify a fluffy reason.

 

I am thinking of going with Censured Company on garrison duty.

[N1SB]

Brothers, I read all your posts here, then re-read Know No Fear (I can't believe it's been a decade already), slept on it a few nights (best thing to do with ideas, see if it still sounds like a good idea in the morning), and my thoughts are really just a fusion of all your points.  I've dramatically had a shift in my thinking to the point of Traitor Ultramarines is now the most obvious in hindsight thing like "it'll stop itching when you stop scratching it."

 

 

+++ Minimum assumptions for what is a big turn (but not really) +++

 

Ultramarines have become the poster child of the orthodox, orderly Imperial Marine (it was actually the case even in 1st ed), so I also felt I needed to come up with a really good justification to explain how their Legionnaires, of all the Astartes, turned Traitor.  My personal answer is, they never really did, but their downfall was exactly their orthodox, orderly ways simply lead them to the wrong side, because Warhammer runs on irony.  Only 3 pretty indisputable points are needed:

• The Emperor named Horus the Warmaster
• Most of the Ultramarines and their Primarch were isolated in Ultramar through the Heresy
• Ultramarines would follow the chain of command, procedures, protocols

With just those 3 obvious pieces of lore, it forges an obvious narrative, but I also acknowledge some limitations.

 

 

+++ Just playing out those 3 pieces of lore +++

 

I just played out in various ways how those 3 pieces of lore would play out.  They're very general, so the same trends occur.

 

Even Guilliman accepted Horus as Warmaster.  In Know No Fear, he actually theoretical/practical'd the shortlist down to Dorn, someone else, himself and Horus.  The betrayal at Calth happened almost precisely because he tried to politically support Horus, to show his Legion's loyalty to the new hierarchy as well as to build relations with the Word Bearers and Lorgar they humiliated.  Guilliman actually went out of his way to tell his Marines to acknowledge Horus as Warmaster at first.

 

There were 200,000 of 250,000 Ultramarines at Calth, and they were really stuck there for a long time due to the Ruinstorm the Word Bearers were summoning, to the point they founded their own Unremembered Empire later.  The 50,000 remaining were kinda on their own.  Undoubtedly some were in other parts of Ultramar, and others were deployed elsewhere and would've haded back, but many would've continued their missions, held their posts, awaited further orders.  Despite/Because there was no word for Ultramar, they would have especially done this.

 

(When reading Know No Fear, Ultramarines ships were being blown to bits, but they still followed the chain of command awaiting permission to fire while Guilliman looked out the window and watched them getting blowed up, because they were trained not to escalate the situation for fear it was some misunderstanding.  Of course, there was some misunderstanding, it's called betrayal.)

 

These isolated Ultramarines would do what they were trained to do: follow the chain of command.  That would lead them straight to Horus, the Warmaster chosen by the Emperor himself.  Even communication was difficult across the vast expanse of space, so they'd use psychic Astropaths, but messages from back home would have been difficult with the Ruinstorm the Word Bearers were summoning (partly for that express purpose).  So until they had reason to believe otherwise...they'd honestly would listen to Horus.

 

The tragedy of this isn't that these Ultramarines broke any rules, but they ended up on the wrong side precisely because they tried to follow the rules.

 

 

+++ I'm now acknowledging limitations +++

 

In the above scenario, the Warmaster could pretty much tell these Ultramarines anything short of:

• Attacking fellow Ultramarines - these Ultramarines don't think of themselves as Traitor, they're just isolated
• Attacking Terra (I think) - by that time the Traitors were openly summoning Daemons all over the place

The closest equivalent is 2nd World War Japanese soldiers who they discovered decades after the war was over, still hiding in some Southeast Asian island, precisely because the obedience instilled in them made them follow their last standing orders until relieved.  And the Heresy really only lasted 1 decade.

 

 

+++ What (mis)information would the Warmaster communicate? +++

 

This point forward, I'm starting to really insert my own ideas, because it is here I find this project really fun.

 

What kinda Regimental Standard level of propaganda would the Warmaster communicate?  I think this will be the fun part, the running gag.  The best lies are served between slices of truth, like a sandwich, wherein the lies are like the bacon and more bacon, some secret sauce, and the truth being the boring white bread.

 

It'll be the most twisted account of the Horus Heresy.  Like there was a Drop Site Massacre at Istvaan V, but the betrayal was committed by...say...Corvus Corax because he was an expert at those lightning alpha strikes, supported by Salamanders and the Iron Hands.  Ferrus even fought Fulgrim despite famously being best friends with him, which forced the Phoenician to decapitate the Gorgon out of sheer loyalty to the Warmaster, chosen by the Emperor.

 

It appears even Ultramar has been attacked!  Reports are conflicting...are they Orks from the Veridian system, or some unknown Xenos?  Rumours are Daemons, but that's clearly propaganda by these Traitors.  The Word Bearers, to prove their new dedication to the Imperial Truth, has been dispatched to help, show there's no hard feelings after the humiliation at Monarchia.  But it looks like...are you getting reports of the Dark Angels and Blood Angels making their way to Ultramar?  The Angels of Death must be Traitors, too, they're trying to Unremember your Empire by wiping it out!  Don't worry...we hear Luther and the Knights of Caliban have remained loyal.

 

(There's actually a huge part of me that's thinking the version these "Traitor" Ultramarines would believe in is basically the Dornian Heresy, for a really meta joke.)

 

 

+++ How would the Warmaster communicate this propaganda?  +++

 

I'm creating like NPCs (like roleplaying game side non-player characters) involved.  It would be some sort of emissary from the Sons of Horus, someone that Maloghurst the Twisted sent.  He would be a liaison with the Ultramarines, not sure how to represent him...maybe he'd be play the role of a Sergeant embedded with a squad of Ultramarines.  Maybe even a Word Bearer with one knee painted grey, like as a reminder of his humiliation at Monarchia, but he presents himself as genuinely humbled, "No, you didn't humiliate me at Monarchia, you educated me on the error of my ways.  I now support you as best I can to repay you for that lesson."

 

Guilliman wanted his Legionnaires to be statesmen, and would have extended every courtesy to these political emissaries from the Warmaster himself or an embedded officer there for observation from the Word Bearers whom they wish to rebuild relations with.  Rather than these Ultramarines going against the system, it's these Traitor elements that inserted themselves into the Ultramarines system.  I think this is their central theme, these Ultramarines so trust the system, the chain of command, the diplomacy between Legions, that they believed in the Warmaster when they really shouldn't have.

 

 

+++ Red Beakies +++

 

Finally, in case you're interested like me to do a group of censored red-helmed Mark VI Ultramarines, I don't even know if the follow's a good idea, but I'm thinking of calling it Imperium Potemkin.

 

A group of Ultramarines is sent to bring some backwater world into Imperial Compliance after Monarchia and before the betrayal at Istvaan V.  However, the planet was so badly mismanaged that this company of XIIIth Legion has to stay just to make sure it has enough of a government to sustain it after they leave.  They get stuck in this quagmire for years after they should have left, every time they try to leave society falls apart and they got to come back.  The delay was a problem, but trying to govern this planet...that would've been what Guilliman trained them to do.

 

Guilliman, who sometimes spontaneously micromanages and cares about things like political optics, tries to be fair, or at least appear to be fair.  For not moving on in the Crusade, he censures them for being slow in their progress, just as he had humiliated the Word Bearers.  Everyone...including this group of Ultramarines, know this is kabuki theatre to show their Primarch isn't a hypocrite, but precisely because they know it they accept the censure, knowing it'll be lifted.  It's like those public firings in government office, then you find the guy that got fired failed upwards and got a promotion to something else.  As part of this display, Guilliman is going to distance himself for the time being, again for appearances.

 

Shortly after, the Warmaster himself sends a delegation of Sons of Horus (maybe that aforementioned Word Bearer) to connect with this group of Ultramarines, a high honour.  It validates them, clearly this was the gesture of failing upwards they were looking for, that what they're doing is in-line with the Warmaster's wishes.  This delegation brings with them Mark VI Corvus armour as a sign of good faith and tangible support, adorned with the Warmaster's mark, the Eye of Horus.  It's a bit of a white elephant gift as these Ultramarines probably would've had Mark IV Maximus or even the Praetor variant armour, but accept it, but painting the helmets red in remembrance of their censure.

 

 

+++ Final Thoughts +++

 

I was typing the above and I was like...misinformation, censureship...I'm treading dangerously close to real-life issues, so I'm STOPPING myself (before the mods do).  I take Warhammer seriously, I just don't take myself or my projects that seriously, because I find my opponents love those armies they can laugh at, and find more meaning through that.  But I think this twist...these Ultramarines following their training to obey the Warmaster as appointed by the Emperor, is so like the "they did nothing wrong" meme, I think it's actually hilarious.

 

My main point here - these aren't "bad" Ultramarines at all, they're neither corrupted by Chaos nor so incompetent they couldn't tell the difference, it was the system that was bad and mislead them.  Their tragedy is they're trying to be reasonable in an irrational world.  But it still remains funny to me.

Edited April 6, 2022 by N1SB

[N1SB]

 

I am thinking of going with Censured Company on garrison duty.

 

 

We had the same thought, but to my disgrace you summed it up eloquently in 1 sentence.  I would just emphasise the Censured Company wasn't sent to garrison something out of shame, they were censured precisely because they were trying to be dutiful and fixing a planet that took too long.

 

That subtle difference is that the Censured Company wasn't such for breaking the rules.  They were censured by trying to follow the example set by Guilliman, to be statesmen after the fighting was done...and that is their tragedy.

[Mogsam]

There's always a logical reason for a loyalist to turn.

 

Marines might be stereotyped, but all the legions had their divergent members. For an Ultramarine, it might:

 

- be disgust at what happened at Monarchia, destroying a city to prove a point? What sort of Emperor commits genocide for dramatic effect? Wouldn't Horus, the best of the Primarch be better?

 

- A garrison left to rule over a world that is isolated from their primarch for a long time. They make pragmatic choices to rule over their adopted people and are censured for daring to not conform to Roboutes "best" rules.

 

- praetor diverged from the codex. Was told off despite his success.

[Guest]

 *snip*

Between your ideas and Mogsam I think I can come up with a "good" reason.

 

After Monarchia, Chapter Master "To be decided" of the 15th Chapter (and 5 of his Captains), questioned the logic and barbarity of the razing of Monarchia as well as the Emperors actions, for this his Chapter where forced to garrison systems around Khur, embittered by Guillimans apparent lack of concern or even questioning of the Emperors reasons for the sacking.

 

It was not until the Heresy that the 15th Chapter (Companies 151 to 155, total of 600 marines) would throw off their allegiance to Guilliman and side with the Warmaster.

 

No HH models in Impcat yet so have to use a Primaris model. Will be stealing Toyships idea of the Eye of Horus over the Ultramarine symbol.

 

Any pointers of where I should change let me know.

[N1SB]

Between your ideas and Mogsam I think I can come up with a "good" reason.

 

After Monarchia, Chapter Master "To be decided" of the 15th Chapter (and 5 of his Captains), questioned the logic and barbarity of the razing of Monarchia as well as the Emperors actions, for this his Chapter where forced to garrison systems around Khur, embittered by Guillimans apparent lack of concern or even questioning of the Emperors reasons for the sacking.

 

It was not until the Heresy that the 15th Chapter (Companies 151 to 155, total of 600 marines) would throw off their allegiance to Guilliman and side with the Warmaster.

 

 

No HH models in Impcat yet so have to use a Primaris model. Will be stealing Toyships idea of the Eye of Horus over the Ultramarine symbol.

 

Any pointers of where I should change let me know.

 

 

Outstanding.  I like this idea so much I might join you in it...in fact, there's 1 detail I gotta tell you about, regarding the number of Marines.  The following is just Lore Support, like official period-accurate Bitz of information rather than model parts, AND you probably know most of this, but I'm just covering it to hit all the marks.

 

 

+++ The Theoretical X/Practical Y +++

 

Roboute Guilliman had a weird way of talking, thus so did his Legion XIIIth.  He'd go "Theoretical, this thing.  Practical, that thing."  It's like in their free time, Ultramarines are expected to write papers and do presentations about theoreticals they're studying.

 

The character that made the red helmet of censure famous, Aeonid Thiel...in fact he's the reason why Marine Sergeants even now wear red helmets...was censured simply for studying theoreticals about how to fight the best military force at the time, which happened to be other Marines.  When an Ultramarine Captain heard that's why he was censured, his reaction was, "Wait, that's all!?"  The point was, this little bit of political incorrectness was enough for censure, because it suggested theoretical treason.  Even other Ultramarines thought censure was unwarranted for so trivial a matter.

 

So I can imagine your main character merely having a theoretical about the Razing of Monarchia...you don't even have to go into detail.  The questions are obvious, did you have to burn down a capital city to make a point, what were the long-term consequences of doing something just to shame a proud Legion, etc.  But if anyone asks why your Chapter was censured, "They had a theoretical about Monarchia," and it's like aw...no, no, no, it was just politically incorrect enough to suggest the possible questioning of the Emperor's wisdom.

 

Fun Fact - you probably know this, but even Guilliman didn't like the razing of Monarchia.  He didn't like the idea, he didn't like being the one to carry it out, because he knew the Word Bearers would resent him forever for it.  So even though he might've been the one to censure your character, it'd have been a political gesture (which probably makes it even worse, that this was all for show.)  I really like the idea of a Traitor Ultramarines force all having red helmets, though, someone who knows the lore passing by your gaming table would immediately twig your idea.

 

 

+++ Horus Heresy Company Sizes Were Different +++

 

It happens in Know No Fear they had a paragraph explaining this.  The Great Crusade/Horus Heresy scale was different.  In short, during that era:

• 1 Company = 1,000 Marines (different than in 40k) lead by a Captain
• 1 Chapter = 10 Companies (same as in 40k) = 10,000 Marines

So for the scale you're thinking of, 1 Company is enough, your character could just be a Captain asking a very reasonable question about Monarchia.

 

I think that's it, just supporting your main point and changing 1 number.

Edited April 7, 2022 by N1SB

[Slinky]

I'm loving the example model above, this could end up a really interesting force!

[Claws and Effect]

I really like the idea of a force of Ultramarines that weren't traitors at all. They were just fed false information by Horus, who they still had standing orders to obey because he was (as far as they knew) still the Warmaster and second only to the Emperor.

 

Kind of the same thing as changing the message to the Wolves from "Bring Magnus to me" to "Kill him and destroy his entire Legion"