Leagues of Votann Initial 1st April 2022 reveal, new lore & articles discussion

[Iron Father Ferrum]

They're not clones.  They're like the Clans from BattleTech if you're familiar with them -- genetic material is taken from living Kin and combined artificially to make new Kin, with each new person engineered to meet a specific need or role.

 

I'm not a geneticist so while i assume it's possible to combine two samples of male genetics to make a new Kin, it's probably easier to do so with one male sample and one female sample.

[Marshal Reinhard]

3 hours ago, Handsome Fred said:

Assuming is the same base as the marine (32mm) could be something like this.

Why would we assume this though? Seems to me he's on a 28 mm base. 

Edited June 30, 2022 by Reinhard

[Spagunk]

1 hour ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

They're not clones.  They're like the Clans from BattleTech if you're familiar with them -- genetic material is taken from living Kin and combined artificially to make new Kin, with each new person engineered to meet a specific need or role.

 

I'm not a geneticist so while i assume it's possible to combine two samples of male genetics to make a new Kin, it's probably easier to do so with one male sample and one female sample.

To piggy back on this one: There is some nugget of truth to the idea of only modifying the specific traits you want genetically.  Which is why the advent of CRISPR-Cas9 is so important in the news right now. I would imagine GW's head lore is more looking at this as "We don't need to get too in depth here but we should definitely keep to understood concepts". The clan thing from Battletech is a good example as that's even further simplified through the limits of 1980's sci-fi tropes. It just so happens to coincide with more modern advancements kind of like how certain concepts of Star Trek made its way into real life, even if it's not 100% the same.

I guess what I am saying is that the Clan thing is probably the closest comparable idea but with a more modern spin. So not clones or full gene editing but a mix of the two so that they're not like Space Marines but they aren't like standard imperial armies either.

[Irate Khornate]

2 hours ago, Spagunk said:

To piggy back on this one: There is some nugget of truth to the idea of only modifying the specific traits you want genetically.  Which is why the advent of CRISPR-Cas9 is so important in the news right now. I would imagine GW's head lore is more looking at this as "We don't need to get too in depth here but we should definitely keep to understood concepts". The clan thing from Battletech is a good example as that's even further simplified through the limits of 1980's sci-fi tropes. It just so happens to coincide with more modern advancements kind of like how certain concepts of Star Trek made its way into real life, even if it's not 100% the same.

I guess what I am saying is that the Clan thing is probably the closest comparable idea but with a more modern spin. So not clones or full gene editing but a mix of the two so that they're not like Space Marines but they aren't like standard imperial armies either.

Going off my favorite professor's words "CRISPR is an excellent tool, however in practical usage it's much better at making a biological weapon than use in genetic modification of humans. In fact it would be quite easy to modify a lethal viral strain using CRISPR to remain dormant for years until the introduction of the programmed catalyst into the water supply" This is also the professor that used Kung Fu techniques in cancer biology to describe certain strains. Dude was awesome.

[SpaceDwalin]

7 hours ago, Felix Antipodes said:

I want to see a Kin model alongside a Necromunda Squat, and possibly an OG Squat from 1st edition.  It will be interesting to see the comparison.

Not quite what you asked for. But allows a bit of size comparison with old school squats.

[Spagunk]

1 hour ago, Irate Khornate said:

Going off my favorite professor's words "CRISPR is an excellent tool, however in practical usage it's much better at making a biological weapon than use in genetic modification of humans. In fact it would be quite easy to modify a lethal viral strain using CRISPR to remain dormant for years until the introduction of the programmed catalyst into the water supply" This is also the professor that used Kung Fu techniques in cancer biology to describe certain strains. Dude was awesome.

Add about 28,000 years of human engineering and...

[OttoVonAwesome]

6 hours ago, SpaceDwalin said:

Isn't Necromunda scale a bit bigger than regular 40k? I wouldn't be surprised if the NecroSquats were a bit bigger than Kin. 

There's a photo on another forum (The Grand Alliance - AoS) which shows NecroSquats slightly bigger than Kharadrons.

Necromunda isn't scaled different there's just an huge differences in the houses genetics and breeding making alot of them almost abhuman, Cawdor for example are as close to baseline normal humans as you get so they are quite short compared to say Delaque who are tall lanky molemen and while close in height to Orlock who are close to normal are all built burly and thick. Necromunda be cool that way.

[MithrilForge]

7 hours ago, Mjasghar said:

So if they are all cloned why is there a need for females? 

Unless it’s like the geneoclan from the alpha legion book - the eggs are harvested and fertilised with genetic augmentation 

You Could say why is there even a need for males... why not have all females instead... 

it's from a model perspective too, GW see's that equal footing of male & female models is a thing that people want (and why not, Girls/women are playing this game more and more) it's not really about Fluff/Lore it's about cool looking models that people want. 

I can't wait for this Faction to drop 

Mithril

 

   

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, mithrilforge said:

(and why not, Girls/women are playing this game more and more)

 

   

True. Going from 0.0001% of the customer base to 0.0002% is technically more.

And agreed, the faction is looking cool! Not every model has been a hit for me so far, but enough have been that there is almost certainly a Squat army in my future.

[TheVoidDragon]

Quote

Culture in general is incredibly important to the Leagues,

This line in the latest article is really what my issue with the models so far are. People keep saying absurd things like "You just want them to be fantasy dwarfs! boring!" when people say they aren't Dwarfy enough but that's a strawman that completely misses the problem. Whether you like it or think it's boring, these guys are undeniably Space Dwarfs with the usual Dwarf aesthetics and theming included; runes, geometric patterns, Norse elements, gold decoration, beards etc with lore mentions of beer, ancestors, dislike of Elves, proud of their culture etc and all the stuff you'd expect from the Dwarf archetype.

So to me saying the Hearthkin, Ironkin and Hernkin "aren't Dwarfy enough" comes down to an issue of not JUST preferring them to look a certain way (I do very much like the typical Dwarf theming, but I'd still have this issue even if they'd gone for say Nautical-themed space dwarfs or whatever), but rather those elements not being there then affecting in a different way; the way their lore is realized via the models and the cohesive nature of their overall theming is lessened.

You've got master craftsmen stoic martial space dwarfs who are meant to place a big importance on their culture, heritage, the ancestors, their family and their individuality, yet almost none of that is actually depicted on the models. They have no ancestor markings, no runes, no decorative patterns, nothing to link to the heritage and culture side of their lore outside of the single element of the Theyn Dwarf-themed animal banner....but because that's the only thing there is, it looks out of place with the rest of the squad. The other units for the Leagues like the Leader guy and the Exo-suits will absolutely get more of the Dwarf theming as we've seen some of it, but the issue is with the models revealed - other miniatures being different doesn't solve the issue, and as these guys are some of the core units, they are arugably some of the most important. The Dwarf theming needs to be evident throughout their army to at least some extent otherwise it'll feel arbitrarily stuck in when it does show up, like the Theyn Banner feeling like they went "oh no, we forgot to add any to the Hearthkin, quick shove something on them" rather than implementing in in a way that feels natural.

They absolutely do not need to be covered all over in runes and all that to the point it becomes their overall aesthetic, they just need something basic like nearly every other army has for their style. The Skiitari have the Cog on their chest, Necrons the Ankh, Genestealer Cults get their symbol on chains, Orks get their Glyphs, Imperial Guard get the Aquilla on their lasguns/helmets/chest, Space Marines get it on their bolter and Chest, Tau have the Empire logo on their shoulderpad etc. Even the Ironhead Prospector Squats have their Bearded Skull belt symbol, and Grendle Grendlesen has a (presumably) Votann sigil on his backpack, belt and weapon. The Leagues, an army where that heritage side of things is actually said to be very important to them, have basically nothing present on their infantry.

This has nothing to do with the DAoT look of them either, they aren't mutually exclusive - especially not when the Dwarf aesthetic IS a part of the leagues regardless.  It's just the lack of Dwarf aesthetic ontop of that on the basic infantry really takes away from the miniatures both by making them seem a little bland and by making that part of the side told rather than shown. All they'd have needed was something basic like a Votann icon and a bit of a pattern on their weapons (which, for some reason, is on Autoch bolter but nothing else).

Outside of that though...it's a smaller thing but I don't get why they went for a style that is so very similar to Imperial weapons to the point they wouldn't look out of place on them. The Necromunda Van Saar weapons are also more complete DAoT designs and they feel wildly different and more artisan than the Leagues weapons do, they stand out in comparison to the typical Imperial tech.

Edited July 2, 2022 by TheVoidDragon

[Guest Triszin]

im super excited for this army. Not a fan of the grav bikes, but love everything else so far.

 

I hope they get a titanfall esq mech. KIN and KIN working together as one.

[Felix Antipodes]

While I don’t disagree wrt the lack of cultural Sigils, it may be that their weapons are designed to look similar to Imperial designs to keep the Mechanicum from prying too closely into their forges?

[Lord Marshal]

The lore definitely feels like Space Dwarfs. The art we've seen of League architecture looks like Space Dwarfs.

The models so far don't feel that way imo. They're just sort of generic sci-fi equipment being worn by a Dwarf. There's the odd tidbit like the sergeants having the Fyreslayer-esq animal crests, but I think if you gave the Kin human proportions they'd not look out of place at all in any other, deliberately generic, sci-fi wargame. With that being said, Squats weren't too different in that respect either ("Dwarf Imperial Guard"), except for the Hearthguard, but the assumed Kin version of them look more like Starcraft 2 Marines from the artwork.

I don't dislike the models we've seen - I do like them - I'm not in love with them either. They're not the homerun that the Kharadron were for "they're clearly Dwarfs but a different take on them" in my opinion, at least ignoring the proportions. Hopefully further reveals endear me more to the aesthetics. I'm a lover of all things Dwarf though, so I'll still be main'ing them.

Edited July 3, 2022 by Lord Marshal

[TheVoidDragon]

3 hours ago, Lord Marshal said:

The models so far don't feel that way imo. They're just sort of generic sci-fi equipment being worn by a Dwarf. There's the odd tidbit like the sergeants having the Fyreslayer-esq animal crests, but I think if you gave the Kin human proportions they'd not look out of place at all in any other, deliberately generic, sci-fi wargame. With that being said, Squats weren't too different in that respect either ("Dwarf Imperial Guard"), except for the Hearthguard, but the assumed Kin version of them look more like Starcraft 2 Marines from the artwork.

 

I agree with pretty much all you've said. What we've seen so far from the models has in pretty much no way felt like a new cool take for Space Dwarfs, while their lore, architecture, leaders etc do. It's such a shame as its not like they needed to entirely different get that idea across, Grendl Grendlesen felt much more like a proper Space Dwarf and all he has is the beard and a few Dwarfy embellishments on is weapon, backpack and belt. He's even wearing a League-associated void suit. They had a template for them that was already a great update on the originals in a new direction.

I've seen plenty of people argue against these complaints with absurd counters of "Typical Dwarfs are boring, it's good they're unique!" or "You just want them to be Fantasy Dwarfs!" both of which completely miss that whether they like it or not, the Leagues are Space Dwarfs and including the Dwarf archetype aesthetic doesn't mean they can't be unique. The Eldar are basically a  sci-fi take on the Elf archetype. The Lumineth Realmlords are a refresh of the High Elf archetype. The Kharadron Overlords are a new steampunk sky pirate take on the Dwarf archetype. They don't loose the core of their expected aesthetics...but the Leagues do, at least to the extent it isn't present throughout their model range in a cohesive natural way.

Such a shame as I very, very much like the Dwarf Archetype but my thoughts on the Leagues miniatures are....not great enough to go "Awesome Space Dwarfs, I need them" (Grendl did that though) but also not "Terrible, I have no interest". They're just middling, and even if others are revealed that are better, that won't solve the issue as these are some of the core units.

As for the "Squats weren't like it" thing, from what I've seen that's just how things were back then in general. Space Marines and Imperial Guard for example didn't seem to much in the way of iconography outside of their champions/leaders either, it doesn't seem like it was a deliberate design choice for Squats as such.

7 hours ago, Felix Antipodes said:

While I don’t disagree wrt the lack of cultural Sigils, it may be that their weapons are designed to look similar to Imperial designs to keep the Mechanicum from prying too closely into their forges?

I don't think that's likely considering their other stuff like the Trikes, and Imperial designs very vastly anyway. I just don't get why they'd make it look so similar when there could have gone in all sorts of more interesting styles than just "typical Imperial but slightly better looking". Like, Delaque, Van Saar, Palatine, Skiitari etc all feel more unique with their weapon designs.

[phandaal]

5 hours ago, Lord Marshal said:

I don't dislike the models we've seen - I do like them - I'm not in love with them either. They're not the homerun that the Kharadron were for "they're clearly Dwarfs but a different take on them" in my opinion, at least ignoring the proportions. Hopefully further reveals endear me more to the aesthetics. I'm a lover of all things Dwarf though, so I'll still be main'ing them.

One thing that really has not done it for me is that god awful gremlin riding an electric shaver.

The infantry should look much better without that shiny clean Tau aesthetic GW chose to paint them with.

Really want to see what their elites look like.

[TheVoidDragon]

1 hour ago, phandaal said:

One thing that really has not done it for me is that god awful gremlin riding an electric shaver.

 

I really feel like they missed a chance to make something more unique and interesting than just more anti-grav, seriously hope that they aren't limited to anti-grav vehicles in general. It could have been a half-track like old Ork Wartrakk was, or a combination of anti-grav back and a wheel/ball at the front, or even a monowheel. Didn't need to be an anti-grav trike.

[AenarIT]

I like what I've seen so far. 
What will make it or break it for me will be the keyword treatment they'll receive. 
A standalone xenos faction? Hard pass, I can't justify yet another full army project. 
An imperium-aligned faction? Maybe, adding stuff to the imperium pile could justify getting a small force. 
A tau-aligned faction (demiurgs)? I'd probably get more than a few kits in this case.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Quote

I like what I've seen so far. 
What will make it or break it for me will be the keyword treatment they'll receive. 
A standalone xenos faction? Hard pass, I can't justify yet another full army project. 
An imperium-aligned faction? Maybe, adding stuff to the imperium pile could justify getting a small force. 
A tau-aligned faction (demiurgs)? I'd probably get more than a few kits in this case.

We've seen enough lore etc of the League that we can surmise they're a stand alone "abhuman" faction (calling them xenos would just be incorrect). They're not an Imperium aligned faction, because if they were they wouldn't be sport heretechial gear and such. See the necromundan miners to see what Imperium aligned squats are like.. They're neither Tau aligned as that would also mean tau tech, and not be following their ancestor head cpu-things.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Reinhard

[Lord Marshal]

1 minute ago, Reinhard said:

We've seen enough lore etc of the League that we can surmise they're a stand alone "abhuman" faction (calling them xenos would just be incorrect). They're not an Imperium aligned faction, because if they were they wouldn't be sport heretechial gear and such. See the necromundan miners to see what Imperium aligned squats are like.. They're neither Tau aligned as that would also mean tau tech, and not be following their ancestor head cpu-things.

My guess is they're still going to throw them under the 'Imperium' banner for when GW categorises them as an army, both for the webstore and game mechanics.

[-DonCorleone-]

5 minutes ago, Reinhard said:

We've seen enough lore etc of the League that we can surmise they're a stand alone "abhuman" faction (calling them xenos would just be incorrect). They're not an Imperium aligned faction, because if they were they wouldn't be sport heretechial gear and such. See the necromundan miners to see what Imperium aligned squats are like.. They're neither Tau aligned as that would also mean tau tech, and not be following their ancestor head cpu-things.

If I was GW, I would have made the Leagues of Votann a slave race of humans engineered by the degraded remnants of the Men of Iron to collect artifacts to return the Men of Iron to what they were before losing the war against humanity.

[SpaceDwalin]

14 minutes ago, -DonCorleone- said:

If I was GW, I would have made the Leagues of Votann a slave race of humans engineered by the degraded remnants of the Men of Iron to collect artifacts to return the Men of Iron to what they were before losing the war against humanity.

Who says this isn't the case? Just not revealed yet, they do seem to serve and worship the Vottan who are AIs. I also read some theories that the Kin might be Men of Stone.

36 minutes ago, AenarIT said:

I like what I've seen so far. 
What will make it or break it for me will be the keyword treatment they'll receive. 
A standalone xenos faction? Hard pass, I can't justify yet another full army project. 
An imperium-aligned faction? Maybe, adding stuff to the imperium pile could justify getting a small force. 
A tau-aligned faction (demiurgs)? I'd probably get more than a few kits in this case.

A recent lore article mentioned that they at times work as mercenaries for Xenos.

And there's also been mention of them passing on technology to the Tau.

Edited July 4, 2022 by SpaceDwalin

[Marshal Reinhard]

I seem to be in the clear minority that is glad they're toning down dwarf tropes.

Wether this means they're just generic sci-fi though... eh I guess I can see where that criticism is coming from... isn't that sort of the point with their lore? They've lost a less, so they're less adorned, more baseline, thus 'generic' looking? Maybe they need to develop the votann's iconography more and lean more heavily into that?

[phandaal]

7 minutes ago, SpaceDwalin said:

Who says this isn't the case? Just not revealed yet, they do seem to serve and worship the Vottan who are AIs.

100% Guarantee Squats are not a slave race for the Men of Iron.

The articles have been clear that the relationship between Squats and the remaining Men of Iron is one of mutual respect. They view each other as equal members of the same society.

Squats are mining colonists sent out during the Dark Age of Technology, and Votann are the AIs the Squats' ancestors brought along with them.

[Ekim_Trub]

Can't say I am a big fan of the Leagues so far, but will reserve judgement until I see how they look with non-studio paintjobs.

Tbh, imo they almost come across as they have been created to draw in generic sci-fi fans.

[TheVoidDragon]

4 hours ago, phandaal said:

Squats are mining colonists sent out during the Dark Age of Technology, and Votann are the AIs the Squats' ancestors brought along with them.

They are not, though. The article on the Votann a while back told us that isn't the case.
 

Quote

 

The eventual fate of the First Ancestors is uncertain, for Kin myth solidifies into intelligible history only after the long-march fleets began to arrive at their destinations near the galactic core. The records of this period boast the last references to the First Ancestors – and the earliest mentions of the Ancestor Cores.

Likewise, it is a First Truth that the Kin have been a cloned people from the very start.

 

The "First Ancestors" set off from Terra (or wherever it was). The Kin records have lost the information, but imply something happened to them on the way to their destination, as the records only resume after they get to the Galactic core....and it's at that point that the "First Ancestors" vanish from the records, and the Votann are first mentioned. It's after that point that the Kin exist as by Implication the "First Ancestors" were not Kin clones.

Edited July 4, 2022 by TheVoidDragon