Impulsor & Bladeguard still viable?

[Spyros]

In the face of constantly increasing damage output from A/T weapons, is it still a viable tactic to send a shielded Impulsor to deliver a big squad of Bladeguard to hold the centre of the battlefield?

[Dracos]

In today’s environment. The only reason in my opinion for a transport is if you need to get a unit on your opponents deployment zone … or if your on the short edges. Otherwise I think knits more effective to just buy another unit.

[War of the Eagle]

I agree with Dracos, most transports are over pointed and for the cost you can just take more bodys that can soak wounds or be killy if not the target.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The Falcon is less points than an Impulsor.

[Dracos]

The Falcon is less points than an Impulsor.

 

Wrap that around your Databalance sheet and smoke it GW.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

The Falcon is less points than an Impulsor.

 

Wrap that around your Databalance sheet and smoke it GW.

 

And gw took fly away. :(

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

Unless something changed very recently, Bladeguard were still common sights in winning tournament lists a few months ago.

[CrystalSeer]

Two points on OPs question:

 

- the impulsor's ability to disembark after move is actually better for short range shooting units than assault units, since you still can't charge afterwards. My favorite is assault hell blasters because they can hit almost any spot on the table t1

 

- bladeguard with transhuman for 1cp are likely the most durable unit we have. Moreso if you accompany them with an apothecary

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

The Falcon is less points than an Impulsor.

Sorta Black Templars implusors with the multi-melta are more expensive than the base falcon. Other marine chapters impulsors will be slightly cheaper.

 

That said the falcon is tougher, faster, and has the drop pod ability.... and doesn't show up in alot of competitive lists. Which is pretty humbling when you think about it.

[Karhedron]

That said the falcon is tougher, faster, and has the drop pod ability.... and doesn't show up in alot of competitive lists. Which is pretty humbling when you think about it.

The Eldar codex is only about a month old and competitive players seem to have been drooling over Harlquins mostly so far. The assorted Eldar grav tanks seem well balanced against each other in terms of points and capabilities, a shame the Marine ones are not up to the same standard.

[Orange Knight]

If your enquiry is about the competitive standing of these units, then unfortunately the answer is no.

 

The truth is that none of the Astartes units are viable in the current Meta, but don't let that put you off the models you want to own. Hopefully the balance is addressed in the next codex/edition.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

That said the falcon is tougher, faster, and has the drop pod ability.... and doesn't show up in alot of competitive lists. Which is pretty humbling when you think about it.

The Eldar codex is only about a month old and competitive players seem to have been drooling over Harlquins mostly so far. The assorted Eldar grav tanks seem well balanced against each other in terms of points and capabilities, a shame the Marine ones are not up to the same standard.

That's a fair point, and it's worth pointing out the falcon can only carry a few models which does keep it in check a little (still shouldn't be close to the Impulsor point wise though).

 

Personally I think if your playing competitive marines that vanguard vets, and devs in pod are higher priorities than implusors with bladeguard. That said if you like impulsors & bladeguard run them. Marines aren't a competitive fraction at the moment so have fun with them.

[Medjugorje]

in my opinion BGV were never really good with Impulsor in 9th edtion (with 9th edtion marines codex).

 

BGV are so much better without impulsor... imo its too hurtful when it explodes and on average you will loose one model before they can do anything

[Marshal Mittens]

Maybe not against the best anti tank factions like tau or eldar, but still pretty good otherwise.

 

Nice to include too because they look neat.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Marshall Mittens

[Malakithe]

All transports in the game are overcosted traps unless your T'au...they have the best transport set ups in the game and should be the standard for Space Marine assault style transports. 

 

The Devilfish has a higher transport capacity, better weapons, better sheet abilities, and has the best Strat support in the game.

 

Walk the Bladeguard with the support of a Chief Apothecary

[9x19 Parabellum]

So let's start off with durability.  T, W, and Armor Save mean just about nothing in terms of granting durability.*

 

The things that guarantee durability are the stacking of the following defensive layers:

-penalties to hit

-transhuman like abilities

-4+ or better invuln saves

-5+ or better FnP

-intercept abilities (drones)

-damage reduction abilities (although even this is starting to fall by the wayside)

-the abilitiy to shut down your opponents to hit/wound rerolls.

 

This is why Custodes, Harlies and Tau units are tough right now. It's obviously not their T/W/Save (Custodes notwithingstanding, but that's only because they ALSO have high AS, high Invuln save, some mortal wound protection, and several other abilities to shut down opponent's offense).  BGV are moderately durable because they have good T/W/AS relative to their cost AND good invuln AND the ability to transhuman for (generally) 1 cp.

 

So, that being said, if you can't be durable, and virtually nothing can in the game outside the big 3 or 4 right now, the game comes down to trading pieces, much like chess.  "Can I trade a piece (unit) for one of my opponents more valuable pieces (units)?"  Those units that can do that job will fare well and earn their place.   Part of that decision is cost effectiveness, and built into that is "perceived" durability. I say perceived because the difference in survivability between, for example, SoB Retributors and SM Devastator squad would appear large (T4, +1 wound) but in fact both units will be obliterated once they peek their head out, and because of this, the SoB Retributor squad has the advantage, because it isn't paying sunk costs for defensive values on it's statline which will never actually help it live.   So then what helps the Devastators do their job is drop-podding in, but unless they can clear everything in their zone/area, you can consider those devastators dead come the opponents next shooting phase.  So then the only question is, did those marines kill more than they cost? That is pretty much the only question that qualifies usefulness in this addition that puts so much lethality into the game.   That's why vanguard vets get included (speed and hitting power).

Sadly most Marines pay a premium for the "marquis" defensive statline which gets them virtually no further in their survivability. 

 

 

*except for oddball cases where these stats are all inordinately high relative to their cost, though I actually can't think of any actual examples right now.

All transports in the game are overcosted traps unless your T'au...they have the best transport set ups in the game and should be the standard for Space Marine assault style transports. 

 

The Devilfish has a higher transport capacity, better weapons, better sheet abilities, and has the best Strat support in the game.

 

Walk the Bladeguard with the support of a Chief Apothecary

 

Amen, Malakithe.  Glad to see you come around and agree with me (referring to the Tau thread) :-D

[CrystalSeer]

@parabellum, not sure I agree with all your points but I think that was the most succinctly I've heard that viewpoint expressed.

[Malakithe]

 

 

Amen, Malakithe.  Glad to see you come around and agree with me (referring to the Tau thread) :-D

Haha well this one is kinda obvious or at least should be. Ive also never liked transports in any faction except T'au...for now. Its actually hard to justify not taking Devilfish at this point

[9x19 Parabellum]

@parabellum, not sure I agree with all your points but I think that was the most succinctly I've heard that viewpoint expressed.

 

Haha. I can appreciate that.

 

Bonus, follow up question to help illustrate my point.

 

5 Devastators with multimeltas start the game in a rhino (~250 points) and in another game, 7 SoB retributors with Multi-meltas also start the game in a Sororitas rhino (~250) points.  In each game, their opponent is Tau, Custodes, Harlies or Aeldari.

In each game, the Astartes player and the Sororitas player lose the roll off and end up going second.

Now here's the trick question: Which unit, Devastators or Retributors lives to see turn 2 and actually shoot their multimeltas?

And of course the answer is neither; they both get obliterated in turn 1 of the enemy's shooting phase.

[CrystalSeer]

My answer would be the ones smart enough to hide behind los blocking terrain and minimize angles of fire.

 

But I do get your point; the t4 and 2 wounds isn't doing too much.

Edited April 11, 2022 by CrystalSeer

[Khornestar]

Smart missile systems make even that not matter, as I experienced in my last game.

[CrystalSeer]

Smart missiles good against armor?

[Dracos]

Smart missiles good against armor?

Either it was a poorly worded joke oh that AP1 must be killing him him ?

 

Personally I think the AP system Has created a plethora problems. Armor saves are so bad that everybody needs a 4++ just to have a chance to survive a round of shooting.

 

But I also miss the days when initiative was in a stat also

[Khornestar]

Unclear but it was more in response to T4 2W, didn’t realize the blocking LoS comment was meant to apply only to the impulsor.

[Medjugorje]

 

@parabellum, not sure I agree with all your points but I think that was the most succinctly I've heard that viewpoint expressed.

 

Haha. I can appreciate that.

 

Bonus, follow up question to help illustrate my point.

 

5 Devastators with multimeltas start the game in a rhino (~250 points) and in another game, 7 SoB retributors with Multi-meltas also start the game in a Sororitas rhino (~250) points.  In each game, their opponent is Tau, Custodes, Harlies or Aeldari.

In each game, the Astartes player and the Sororitas player lose the roll off and end up going second.

Now here's the trick question: Which unit, Devastators or Retributors lives to see turn 2 and actually shoot their multimeltas?

And of course the answer is neither; they both get obliterated in turn 1 of the enemy's shooting phase.

 

with the exception that SoB can premove and have stratagems for their units to perform better (or rerolls hit AND wound rerolls ) becaue they have extremly cheap character support.

Smart missiles good against armor?

you can push it to ap-3.