Current BA Meta?

[Rhavien]

2 units of jump assault marines in a tournament winning list? Which dimension I've slipped into? Are we ruled by lizards? 

Nice to see we still can pull our weight and obviously without much adoption. Lots of sang guard... 

Curious to see where the meta goes. 

[Karhedron]

Assault squads are cheap, mobile and can be loaded to the gunwales with free (or heavily discounted) wargear. They can support our Elites, grab Objectives, occupy table quarters and even finish off wounded units by themselves. What's not to love?

[Jolemai]

Aye, they also remain decent choices for RBD and Engage secondaries and in this type of list, they are the units which handle the primaries when needed.

[Rhavien]

10 hours ago, Jolemai said:

Aye, they also remain decent choices for RBD and Engage secondaries and in this type of list, they are the units which handle the primaries when needed.

I just kept reading they handle the Primaris and was very confused :-D

Don't forget the meta bombs, guys! I've never used that strat till today, but looking forward to it to blow something up. 

[Jolemai]

I always forget about it 

 

Apparently the last game for that tournament was streamed if anyone is interested. In short, the Aggressors advanced to and held the centre, Whirlwind and Infiltrators secured the baseline, and the jump stuff took the primaries before working on the secondaries.

[The Unseen]

Big Oof, but unsurprising. 

With how GW surely massages its data, I'd be wary of even calling us inside the "healthy" range they want.

 

Is it ok if Im just a touch angry that the 2 factions Ive been playing throughout 9th are BA and Sisters? 

[Karhedron]

As expected, the loss of Armour of Contempt has hit us pretty hard since our main competitive build revolved around spamming Sanguinary Guard. We have also lost some of our good secondaries which were helping to boost our VP scores.

 

With the loss of AoC, I have been giving some thought to what a competitive build might look like. Oath of Moment is back to being a solid choice for Marines so I feel that a biggish block of Bladeguard Vets (possibly with Sanguinary Priest in support) to take the centre might be a solid choice. They don't have the manoeuvrability of SG but they are tougher and hit pretty hard. Then we can load up on a couple of cheap but fully loaded Assault Squads. These provide the mobility and backup hitting power. They are to take Objectives and can also do well in several secondaries such as Retrieve Data, Engage on All Fronts and Behind Enemy Lines. Tooled up Death Company also look promising.

 

The Arks or Omen detachment is good for us as we lean on our Elites and HQs even more than other Chapters so this gives us the ability to trim some of the fat from our lists and max out on our strengths.

[The Unseen]

Hammer and Shield Terminators are just better than Bladeguard now. Only a little bit more expensive, to get +1 save and a much harder hitting weapon. And can go above 6 members, if that matters for you. I never liked having yet another D2 power sword equipped squad.

 

I personally think the secondary loss is worse than AoC, since it basically killed the archetype. If you bring a bunch of shooting units and some backup melee, what makes the list not just a worse IH successor chapter with whirlwind of rage is my problem currently.

[Karhedron]

13 minutes ago, The Unseen said:

Hammer and Shield Terminators are just better than Bladeguard now. Only a little bit more expensive, to get +1 save and a much harder hitting weapon. And can go above 6 members, if that matters for you. I never liked having yet another D2 power sword equipped squad.

 

The improved save matters against AP-1/2 only. Against other attacks they are the same. Also, I think Swords work better with Red Thirst since Hammers have a -1 to-Hit penalty. For someone like Wolves, I would probably go Hammernators but for us, I think BGVs are better, especially as they get more attacks than Hammernators.

 

A 5-man Hammernator squad will score on average 8 hits in the first round of combat. 5 BGVs will score 14 hits on average in the first round. With Red Thirst and an extra point of AP, they are actually very effective against most targets. The only place where Hammers really have an edge is against T6/7 targets or those with damage reduction abilities. For example, against a Knight, the Hammers will average 10-11 Wounds while the BGVs will actually average 11-12 wounds.

 

Against a Dreadnought, the Hammers will score 8-9 wounds while the BGVs will only manage 5-6 wounds because of the Damage reduction. 3 wound targets with Invulns also favour the Hammers but against most targets, the BGVs actually come out ahead, even when you would not expect it. The extra attacks, AP and lack of hit modifier are more than enough to offset the higher strength and damage of hammers against the majority of targets. Also the BGVs have some shooting so they can contribute some chip damage even outside melee.

[Karhedron]

43 minutes ago, The Unseen said:

I personally think the secondary loss is worse than AoC, since it basically killed the archetype. If you bring a bunch of shooting units and some backup melee, what makes the list not just a worse IH successor chapter with whirlwind of rage is my problem currently.

 

There is some truth there. While it is fluffy to use Assault squads and the like BEL and EOAF, any chapter can do the same thing. I think that wildly varying secondaries have actually made it harder for GW to balance lists properly. The less said about Stratagems, the better.

[Cleon]

I'd disagree that the Assault terminators are outright better. I personally will always love Terminators, but I can see advantages for both:

 

Bladeguard - an extra inch of movement, an extra attack per model and doesn't have the -1 to hit from the hammer, smaller minimum squad and to be complete, a few pistol shots and a grenade

Terminators - extra pip of save, extra point to damage, extra strength larger maximum squad and a bit of flexibility with the LC option

 

Both units can attempt to mitigate some of their drawbacks (I don't claim this list to be complete or equal):

Bladeguard get access to Transhuman if they need to momentarily up their surviveability and with str 5 and red thirst they are often wounding on 2s, which against any model with fewer than 3 wounds and no damage resistance is effectively as hard as a thunder hammer. 

Terminators know they are at -1 to hit (with the hammers) so should be trying to leverage a re-roll aura or save CP for fury of the first, but they can also take some models with Lightening laws in the squad to help mitiate the fewer attacks that are more difficult to land if you are worried about being overwhelmed.

 

Personally I'm enough of a narrative player that I'll probably take Bladeguard if my force is mostly Primaris and Assault Terminators if I'm mostly firstborn, but I don't feel like I'm hamstringing myself with either.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I personally think there's still some movement left in that chart. I'd think BA will go up a little bit more as lists adapt to the changes, whereas I think some of the other PA factions (CSM, TS, etc.) haven't hit bottom yet.

[The Unseen]

The only reason I think the terminators are better is that if you want a durable threat, being more resistant to AP -1 and -2 is huge. And the bladeguards offensive profile is the same as SG, so I already have plenty of Str5 -3 2 damage. 3 flat damage is much harder to come by, and the Str8 can matter a lot vs stuff like daemons, DG, etc. And the termies do have Fury of the First to mitigate the to hit penalty, and a larger squad is well worth the Chapter master Rerolls, since SG just need to be within 6" of the warlord to effectively get full rerolls to hit. If you give both squads rerolls to hit, the hammers noticeably improve.

 

And I ran the numbers, claws are actually really gross, they get 6 attacks each and with shred+Red Thirst they do almost as much damage as the hammers vs T7 or less. I think it was they cause 3.6 saves and the hammers 1.6 for each guy. The hammers pull ahead vs -1 to wound (like belakor) or T8 a fair bit more.

 

I'm taking this to a small tournament tomorrow, plan is to focus on Oaths, Relentless/BeL, and a flex 3rd pick. 

Also an excuse to run the 2 baal predators that have been freshly painted. The TO is fine with my SG not being WYSIWYG as long as they're all identical. I've been thing to fit a judiciar rather than the whirlwind but can't make it work while also bringing soulwarden, since the judiciar really wants the 6" heroic. So I'm packing the Champion instead, who gets it natively, and let's me do shenanigans with Angels Sacrifice with the termie brick, and mortal wound defence.

 

Spoiler

Dante

SP, ToT, Rites of War, jump pack

 

5x infiltrators, helix gauntlet

 

Company Champion, soulwarden, blade of triumph 

 

2x 6 SG, Inferno pistols, Axes or fists, haven't decided

 

10 assault terminators, 7 hammers, 3 claws

 

5 DC, hammers jump packs

 

5 DC, Inferno pistols, Power swords

 

5 assault, Inferno pistol hammer sarge, 2 pp chainsword

 

3 attack bikes, mm

 

2x Baal predators, Twin AC, Heavy Bolters, Storm bolter, HK missile

 

Whirlwind, castellan missiles

 

If I had more time I'd swap the attack bikes for 2 land Speeder Tornadoes with mm and assault cannon, but they aren't ready yet, the bikes are

Edited February 17, 2023 by The Unseen

[The Unseen]

So, rough recap

20 man RTT, went 2-1, all tables were roughly GW open terrain layouts

 

Spoiler

First game was vs Mechanicus running Mars with a melee heavy list, 6 laschickens, 3 taser chickens, 2 neutron tanks, 25 of the melee units both rust and infiltrators, 3 squads of 5 1 of 10, and 1 20 man each of Vanguard and Ranger, with several support characters.

 

Went Oath, Bring it Down, and Relentless Assault, on mission Tear Down Icons

 

It didn't go well for him because his melee elements were just incredibly outmatched by mine, but his shooting was horrific. Whatever the ranger brick shot basically died, as with buffs they were AP-2.  Laschickens with core and awakened neutron lasers easily killed the vehicles of course. The Vanguard brick was unimpressive vecause they showed up from reserves and tried to shoot SG and I only failed 4 saves out of 30. He nearly tabled me by turn 4, but I had massive point lead by then as I'd already maxed relentless assault and killed all his vehicles, and he only scored grind once and didn't max primary, 90 to 63.

 

 

 

2nd game was vs Biel Eldar, my only loss, death and zeal, took Oath relentless and Retrieve

 

Avatar, Jain Zar, and 2 farseers, falcon with fire dragon bomb, 15 dire avengers in squads of 5, 2x5 banshee in a wave serpent, 6 Shroud runners, a vyper, 5 Scorpions, and 3 shining spears

 

I made a critical error of getting too aggressive turn 2 and didn't actually get to kill much thanks to transports and a failed Terminator charge into the Avatar, and the counterpunch was horrific, which was compounded by me overestimating the Avatars damage into SS Termies and the shining Spear exarch who hits harder than anything in our book caught me by suprise, (did between 5 and 6 wounds at AP-3 2 damage and 5-6 mortals in addition 3 straight fight phases) which meant he freely got to kill my SP who had been sent to kill him, I should've hit the exarch first and let the termies tank the avatar instead. The game was sealed when turn 3 I sent 6 SG Inferno pistols and 2 attack bikes shooting into Jain Zar and between bad rolls and 2 auto pass saves from strands she took 0 damage, meaning I couldn't kill her. Final score was I think 98 to 74, the 3 eldar secondaries are really easy to score if the opposing army is dead.

 

 

 

3rd game was vs DG, recover the relics, took Bring it Down, relentless, and banners

 

bunch of plague marines, 2 PBC, the Vats character, along with tallyman, psyker, 2 rhinos, and 6 drones, 3 mowers and 3 shooty all separate units

 

The crawlers entropy cannons got sneaky shots onto the predators behind terrain and died instantly, should've been playing by intnet but I got sloppy on ~4 hours of sleep and 3 hour drive. But other than the 1 sacrificial unit I sent in each turn to score relentless and to slow him down, I stayed back and racked up a tied primary and banners. With some legendarily bad rolls I'm locally famous for I was tabled other than the ww turn 5 (Dante fighting twice and the company champion once collectively couldn't kill a plague mower on 1 wound) but final score was 87 to 84 my favor, as he had only gotten grind 2 turns and between deployment and turn 1 DC killing the 2 drones of one flank he didn't break double digits on engage. Turn 5 he tabled me but still couldn't score grind that round because I didn't have enough units left lol.

Grind despite being low scoring is ABSURD for DG now, since if a plague marine unit kills something it gives him 1 CP, and between normal generation and the Tallyman he gained something like 8 additional CP over the game.

 

Tl:DR Baal Predators arent good enough for competitive play, but are cheap enough that them dying to a stiff breeze doesn't hurt as bad as it used too, If you have killy troops Grind is insane, space elves, and Whirlwind MVP. It over 3 games slapped many poor saps with fight last, ran over and killed the last Shroud runner game 2 in melee, and game 3 killed a 1 wound rhino turn 4 for 2 vp, and then the fleshmower drone that had mulched 2 of my characters for an additional 1 vp and a moral reclamation. 

 

Ohh, and with free Strategic Reserves, a squad of infiltrators to hold an entire deployment zone flank is really good, heartily recommend. All 3 of my opponents were annoyed by them.

Edited February 21, 2023 by The Unseen

[Karhedron]

On 2/21/2023 at 10:31 AM, The Unseen said:

Ohh, and with free Strategic Reserves, a squad of infiltrators to hold an entire deployment zone flank is really good, heartily recommend. All 3 of my opponents were annoyed by them.

 

Can you elaborate on this please? I tend to deploy my Infiltrators in the midfield to snag Objectives on T1 so I am interested in other uses for them.

[Jolemai]

Reinforcements can't set up within 12" due to their Omni-scrambler, so deploy in a line or whatever to extend that bubble, meaning the opponent needs to commit to dealing with them.

[The Unseen]

15 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

Can you elaborate on this please? I tend to deploy my Infiltrators in the midfield to snag Objectives on T1 so I am interested in other uses for them.

Sure. It depends on the board, but a lot of them have objectives that are off-centre and aren't quite the midfield but also aren't in your deployment zone. Infiltrators can stick on the them and if you spread them out they can keep an entire table quarter safe from reserves, which is huge when anyone can throw units and have them walk onto the table later from the sides. Putting them forward is just wasting their potential unless your opponent has turn 1 reserves. This is especially noticeable on quarter deployment maps, so a single squad of infiltrators can block huge chunks of the board even though most of your army isn't there, they can be placed in such a way that they block everything behind your flank on that side.

 

BA struggle to deal with reserves like that as we tend to want to bunch up around support characters and it leaves our backs exposed, but in all 3 of my games the whirlwind took one back flank, the main bulk of my army was strung out along one flank and the center, and the infiltrators guarded the opposite flank, and meant that anyone dropping in would have to do so in the midfield, not behind me, making it super easy to score relentless, since my opponent couldn't just walk a 5 man squad behind my back corner or whatever.

Edited February 23, 2023 by The Unseen

[Jolemai]

Couple of placings this weekend, one came first and one came third.

• 1st: CM, Priest, 3 Infiltrators, DC, SGA, 3 SG, Scouts in LSS, VV, 2 RAS + 2 Helverins
• 3rd: Dante, Priest, 2 Infiltrators, Aggressors, DC, SGA, 3 SG, Scouts in LSS, Eliminators, Whirlwind

Enough to cover sticky primaries and work on RBD, DC and LSS for RA early on, second list aims for Oath and potentially has a better charge ability, first has decent fire support, both have Abhor available if needed.

 

(Data: BoK website linked above)

[Karhedron]

Looks like triple SG is still viable. Interesting to compare where the lists are similar and where they differ. Rather sad that it highlights that we only have a relatively small list of really competitive units, despite all the options in the Codex.

[Jolemai]

Yep. Staple selections that push for combat, RA/BEL, RBD, and/or Abhor, then either pushing an extra secondary choice or supplementing the ABC (Always Be Charging) side of things.

[Rhavien]

I feel we need an index for all those clipped words. Or do we already have that? 

[Jolemai]

9 minutes ago, Rhavien said:

I feel we need an index for all those clipped words. Or do we already have that? 

 

 

Sorry I didn't break them down or link that thread before as I assumed they were common shorthand for secondaries in Matched Play these days.

[Jolemai]

On 3/6/2023 at 3:13 PM, Jolemai said:

 

• 1st: CM, Priest, 3 Infiltrators, DC, SGA, 3 SG, Scouts in LSS, VV, 2 RAS + 2 Helverins

 

Same bloke, same list. Took a tournament win last week. Otherwise, not much else of note but it will be interesting to see if the pendulum swings back towards Dante from the Chapter Master following his boost (even if he's ten points more now and the Chapter Master was the budget option).

[Jolemai]

Nothing of note this week, but it will be interesting to see if the latest Balance Dataslate and AoO FAQ bump us up a bit following a few nerfs elsewhere...

[Jolemai]

This went 5-0 and finished second with 486 points at a tournament over the weekend.

 

Jeffrey-Keister-2nd-Place-Sunken-City-April-Massacre-2023-–-Blood-Angels.pdf (bloodofkittens.com)

 

Very forward ABC list that pushes RA/BEL, Ass/BiT, (Abhor), maybe even ST/NP/Grind(!) from how aggressive it is... To be honest, this feels like it would have been better in the previous season so it's interesting to see it carrying over so well.

Edited April 26, 2023 by Jolemai