GW is talking balance, and fixing old Nerfs to factions ...

[Helias_Tancred]

So while this is a hot topic after Adepticon results and OP codex after OP codex release capping with the immeasurable Harlequins .... I started thinking about our beloved.

 

We obviously would benefit from some Space Marine nerfs being reversed, but I thought about a couple Blood Angel specific ones that always felt like a burr in my saddle .... I'm not a greedy guy and I'm definitely not a fan of OP codex hypocrisy that can sometimes raise its head among the 40k fanbase. So I will keep it straightforward and simple.

 

1. 5+ FNP given back to Death Company as a unit trait.

 

2. Death Company units can now be up to 15 in model count. 

 

3. Commander Dante, Lord Regent of Imperium Nihilus gives 3 command points as your warlord. 

 

4. The following stratagem's 9th edition nerfs removed and brought back in line with their 8th edition versions; Red Rampage, Descent of Angels (2 cp cost), and Upon Wings of Fire.

 

And thats it. Things that have bugged me, and that under the new vibe of GW bringing some balance back post-Adepticon, I'd like to see retroactively applied to our glorious chapter.

 

Thank you.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Helias Tancred

[MadGreek]

I'd like to see Assault Squads for BA made a "Troop" choice again, with Objective Secured. If Primaris Assault Intercessors can have it, why not?

[Helias_Tancred]

Thats very thematic and makes sense. Sure.

[Majkhel]

Marines in general require SERIOUS revisit of the points values for their vehicles. I'd also consider giving some of them the -1D. Currently we're effectively locked into the Infantry lists with occasional Dread support.

I'd consider a 6+ FnP for marines in general

For BA:
Mephiston needs an invuln and +1 to cast
A D3 weapon for Dante or a fighting-style-like ability similar to what Helbrecht has.

I would go as far as to change the wording of Red Thirst so that our +1 to wound mechanic would not get outright nullified by various Transhuman Physiology-equivalents. Something like: "result counts as an unmodified roll". It would not be OP by any means as still quantity is better than quality and Red Thirst falls under 'quality'.

[Cleon]

I'd like to see Assault Squads for BA made a "Troop" choice again, with Objective Secured. If Primaris Assault Intercessors can have it, why not?

 

If not this then at least some form of Deathwing like special rule on a Blood Angels Outrider detachment to give Assault squads (and if they come primaris jump troops) Objective secured in that detachment (It feels more likely than across the board objective secured for assault marines)

[Halandaar]

I'd like to see Assault Squads for BA made a "Troop" choice again, with Objective Secured. If Primaris Assault Intercessors can have it, why not?

 

Well Assault Intercessors are significantly less mobile (which means not being Fast Attack make sense) and their having ObSec is less powerful than it would be on Assault Squads because of that lower mobility.

 

Anyway, GW has pretty much completely turned away from having units conditionally move into different battlefield role slots (i.e. Bike Squads becoming Troops if you have a Captain on Bike) now we have various detachment charts that allow you to play without Troops if you want to anyway, I can't see Assault Squads as Troops making a comeback.

 

They could introduce ways to selectively give them ObSec though, either with Warlord Traits (like T'au), special detachment rules (like Deathwing) or special character rules (like the Phoenix Lords), any of which would be cool.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Halandaar

[Dont-Be-Haten]

So while this is a hot topic after Adepticon results and OP codex after OP codex release capping with the immeasurable Harlequins .... I started thinking about our beloved.

 

We obviously would benefit from some Space Marine nerfs being reversed, but I thought about a couple Blood Angel specific ones that always felt like a burr in my saddle .... I'm not a greedy guy and I'm definitely not a fan of OP codex hypocrisy that can sometimes raise its head among the 40k fanbase. So I will keep it straightforward and simple.

 

1. 5+ FNP given back to Death Company as a unit trait.

 

2. Death Company units can now be up to 15 in model count.

 

3. Commander Dante, Lord Regent of Imperium Nihilus gives 3 command points as your warlord.

 

4. The following stratagem's 9th edition nerfs removed and brought back in line with their 8th edition versions; Red Rampage, Descent of Angels (2 cp cost), and Upon Wings of Fire.

 

And thats it. Things that have bugged me, and that under the new vibe of GW bringing some balance back post-Adepticon, I'd like to see retroactively applied to our glorious chapter.

 

Thank you.

I thunk the command point changes would be a good start for BA specifically. Changing Death Company to be 15 strong wouldn't do much imo.

 

I'm with Majkhel and that Space marine vehicles are too expensive points wise. There's not really any rhyme or reason to it.

 

A repulsor clocking in at 300 points that can't survive a single turn of shooting needs to be looked at. The, impulsor, rhino and razorback are all drastically over costed as well. And let's all be honest the impuslor should be able to carry 10 primaris.

 

There are a few other tweaks that I think would help marines, and that ranges from Stratagems and secondaries to reinforcing vehicles and making them more survuorable.

[Helias_Tancred]

This thread was specifically for nerfs to our chapter codex.

[Helias_Tancred]

But for overall space marines your points are valid.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

That's fair. With regards to Harlequins they are getting a lot of little changes, increases.

 

When looking at BA specifically, fixing the strategems is probably the biggest boon.

 

However you did state that you want to see Dante offer 3cp. Which he's never had. And was not a pre 9th nerf.

 

Even the points reductions for death company weren't quite enough in my book. And there in lies the biggest issues for primaris focused individuals.

 

Wanting to take primaris DC, but no way to get them safely to where they need to be is difficult.

 

That being said, I've been an advocate for reworking red thirst and savage echoes for a while now. We should be scarier than white scars in melee and we aren't.

[Helias_Tancred]

Currently Dante offers one bonus CP if he is your warlord. Azrael of the Dark Angels, for example, offers two. I think given that Dante is Lord Regent of Imperium Nihilus and compared to some other HQs that give bonus CP, his current amount of one is not fitting. I still say three, but not less than two.

 

Yeah you're right about the point costs. Lowering the Death Company point cost is also a good move in terms of removing previous nerfs. 

 

We should be scarier than White Scars in melee. You're 100% right.

[The Unseen]

That's fair. With regards to Harlequins they are getting a lot of little changes, increases.

 

When looking at BA specifically, fixing the strategems is probably the biggest boon.

 

However you did state that you want to see Dante offer 3cp. Which he's never had. And was not a pre 9th nerf.

 

Even the points reductions for death company weren't quite enough in my book. And there in lies the biggest issues for primaris focused individuals.

 

Wanting to take primaris DC, but no way to get them safely to where they need to be is difficult.

 

That being said, I've been an advocate for reworking red thirst and savage echoes for a while now. We should be scarier than white scars in melee and we aren't.

I think Red Thirst should just always be on like it is in 30k.

Having it tied to first round of combat isn't great even before all the things that take away charge bonuses come into play.

Why do my combat buffs only work for 1 round when shooting buffs last the whole game?

 

And we really feel the lack of good stratagems.

We have no substantial buffs, no debuffs, no rule breaking strats, no advance and charge, no charge out of deepstrike etc. Give my BA half the strats that harlies get and I'd probably stop complaining.

When are best strats are generic marine ones, its pretty rough. Like the whirlwind suppression fire. You get an effect you need, but then you have to spend the CP, after spending 120 pts on an artillery tank that functionally kills nothing and dies to a stiff breeze.

 

Savage Echoes is definitely on the weak side for a super doctrine, for most of our units it's like a 25% boost, but only in melee, on the charge, on turn 3. When most of the big combats are on turn 2. With no way, other than a short ranged command phase buff on an otherwise overpriced support unit, to push stuff into assault doctrine early.

White scars get somewhere between a 50% to 100% damage increase against multi wound models.

 

Something like a big bonus to consolidates and pile-ins would be a ton more useful, representing the red and black armored tide overrunning the enemy or something.

[Djangomatic82]

Man, I really feel that longing for the old Upon Wings of Fire. It just did so much work.

I'm not so much hurt by the loss of the old version of Red Rampage, it was kinda meh but still decent. Its transformation into its current form though feels like a total kick to the jibblies, like we insulted someone mother and this is the price we pay for it.

I dont think a return to the old Honour the Chapter is the best option, it can be pretty mono dimensional, but maybe a change to letting Named Characters do it for 3CP and "Sergeant" models do it for 1cp would be hella cool and make some epic moments on the tabletop.

 

My personal feeling on the thematic direction we BA should be going has kinda got me thinking about changing our Doctrine to include a new rider, letting BA shoot pistol weapons twice. We have access to Hand Flamers and Inferno pistols on more models than any other SM chapter and getting into assault means more than just fighting. Being able to use our regular old bolt pistols as well as everyone else uses bolt guns would be pretty damn thematic and having pseudo melta guns for 5 points, but only 6" and forced to shoot the nearest, would be a hell of a cost/benefit decision to try and make.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Djangomatic82

[WrathOfTheLion]

 

I'd like to see Assault Squads for BA made a "Troop" choice again, with Objective Secured. If Primaris Assault Intercessors can have it, why not?

 

Well Assault Intercessors are significantly less mobile (which means not being Fast Attack make sense) and their having ObSec is less powerful than it would be on Assault Squads because of that lower mobility.

 

Anyway, GW has pretty much completely turned away from having units conditionally move into different battlefield role slots (i.e. Bike Squads becoming Troops if you have a Captain on Bike) now we have various detachment charts that allow you to play without Troops if you want to anyway, I can't see Assault Squads as Troops making a comeback.

 

They could introduce ways to selectively give them ObSec though, either with Warlord Traits (like T'au), special detachment rules (like Deathwing) or special character rules (like the Phoenix Lords), any of which would be cool.

 

I could see that returning, just not this edition. Age of Sigmar quite frequently has mechanics for moving units to battleline (depending of subfaction, etc.), so it's not too farfetched that it will circle back around to 40k again at some point.

[Halandaar]

Age of Sigmar quite frequently has mechanics for moving units to battleline (depending of subfaction, etc.), so it's not too farfetched that it will circle back around to 40k again at some point.

 

Right, but AoS only has those mechanics because Battleline units are required in every army at every game size, whereas in 40K you can simply ignore Troops by building your army using detachments that don't require them (like Vanguard or Outrider). If anything I think it's more likely that AoS adopts the detachment system in a future edition - it's way more flexible. 

[Majkhel]

Man, I really feel that longing for the old Upon Wings of Fire. It just did so much work.

I'm not so much hurt by the loss of the old version of Red Rampage, it was kinda meh but still decent. Its transformation into its current form though feels like a total kick to the jibblies, like we insulted someone mother and this is the price we pay for it.

I dont think a return to the old Honour the Chapter is the best option, it can be pretty mono dimensional, but maybe a change to letting Named Characters do it for 3CP and "Sergeant" models do it for 1cp would be hella cool and make some epic moments on the tabletop.

 

My personal feeling on the thematic direction we BA should be going has kinda got me thinking about changing our Doctrine to include a new rider, letting BA shoot pistol weapons twice. We have access to Hand Flamers and Inferno pistols on more models than any other SM chapter and getting into assault means more than just fighting. Being able to use our regular old bolt pistols as well as everyone else uses bolt guns would be pretty damn thematic and having pseudo melta guns for 5 points, but only 6" and forced to shoot the nearest, would be a hell of a cost/benefit decision to try and make.

I totally dig those ideas!

[Karhedron]

Well, The Armour of Contempt has arrived and will definitely help us out a bit. Sanguinary Guard in particular will be a bit less glass and a bit more cannon!

 

Also makes Storm Shields a lot less appealing on Captains I think so Inferno Pistols may be the go-to option now.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Karhedron

[Majkhel]

The mentioned Balance Dataslate also reduces the usability of the poor Whirlwind :(

[Khorneeq]

I don't think that it affect Whirlwind in any meaningfull way. Main reason to include it was stratagem not it's damage potential and stratagem needs just a single hit so I can live with this

[Leonaides]

Yup, in absence of a whole revamp of our unit rules and stratagems this will help for now. Our infantry shouldn't dissolve like a cube of sugar in the rain quite so easily and might even be around a bit more to reach turn 3

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Personally I like the changes. I think it gives us some much needed survivability. Our already stoic dreadnoughts, get even better.

 

Our vehicles are a little more viable, and marines will feel tankier.

[Jolemai]

My Firstborn are very happy right now :)

[Paladin777]

The AoC makes Assault termies seem even better! I'm gonna have to get on those for one of this years 12 months of Hobby projects!

 

1+ save TLC and 0+ save TH/SS: yes please!

 

Edit: I have since been corrected on the SS not stacking...

Edited April 15, 2022 by Paladin777

[Leonaides]

Note, it doesn't apply to units with storm shields.

[Paladin777]

~~I was under the impression that storm shields improved your armor save by one, and AoC reduced the incoming AP by one, meaning they stack.~~ It stacks with All is Dust from Thousand Sons...

 

Edit: actually looked at the data slate and I stand corrected. Still, my TLC and Relic terminators are still gonna love the extra durability!

Edited April 15, 2022 by Paladin777