GW is talking balance, and fixing old Nerfs to factions ...

[Leonaides]

Oh yes, don't get me wrong it's still nice, but it frees up captains from needing to grab a shield, and gives a bit more variability on units like assault terms

[Dont-Be-Haten]

When we look at MEQ vs MEQ the doctrines are basically null and void.

 

However I think overall it is a net positive. It just doesn't do much against some of the more consistent armies in my personal meta.

[Paladin777]

Yeah. It makes our beefcake characters (termie captains, bike chaplains, etc) just that much tougher too. I'd like to make a special shout out to the gravis captain with either the armor indomitus or Angel Artifice. They now functionally have a 1+/4++ with just the one relic. Yowza!

 

Unfortunately, it does make storm shields a 100% waste of points on captains. Glad I haven't remodeled mine yet (the one with the TH and Plasma Pistol).

Edited April 16, 2022 by Paladin777

[Jolemai]

Whilst I won't post the link due to the language used, BA Commander on YouTube has done a decent 12 minute tl;dr of the changes and what they mean for us.

[Paladin777]

I'm going to have to look into that. I found him a couple months ago.

[Helias_Tancred]

Whilst I won't post the link due to the language used, BA Commander on YouTube has done a decent 12 minute tl;dr of the changes and what they mean for us.

 

Yeah I really liked that video!

 

FYI on an entirely different BA Commander topic, I figured out the selection path to get Blood Angels for that Horus Heresy Which Legion Are You page. lol BA Commander pinned my post up top :)

[Grand_Master_Alpharius]

So while this is a hot topic after Adepticon results and OP codex after OP codex release capping with the immeasurable Harlequins .... I started thinking about our beloved.

 

We obviously would benefit from some Space Marine nerfs being reversed, but I thought about a couple Blood Angel specific ones that always felt like a burr in my saddle .... I'm not a greedy guy and I'm definitely not a fan of OP codex hypocrisy that can sometimes raise its head among the 40k fanbase. So I will keep it straightforward and simple.

 

1. 5+ FNP given back to Death Company as a unit trait.

 

2. Death Company units can now be up to 15 in model count. 

 

3. Commander Dante, Lord Regent of Imperium Nihilus gives 3 command points as your warlord. 

 

4. The following stratagem's 9th edition nerfs removed and brought back in line with their 8th edition versions; Red Rampage, Descent of Angels (2 cp cost), and Upon Wings of Fire.

 

And thats it. Things that have bugged me, and that under the new vibe of GW bringing some balance back post-Adepticon, I'd like to see retroactively applied to our glorious chapter.

 

Thank you.d this

I could totally get behind this stance. Though as the regent of imperium nihilus, Dante should also get some form of "imperial commander" rule as well similar, though maybe not as good as Guilliman's. And for Emperor's sake, make the Axe Mortalis decent again!!!

[Khorneeq]

Axe Mortalis would become viable if it would get additional point of damage

[BloodyB]

I am loving AoC right now, Necron guns are a whole lot less terrifying, and my big red bois can get to grips so much more easily than before. In the 2 games I have had, it just makes so much sense for marines to have this rule.

 

Gushing aside, does anyone feel that shields on characters matter less than before? Libbies still benefit from the 4++ at least, but they can only take them in termie armour anyway... My Captain is getting an MC bolter instead for the time being, unless anyone has ba better idea?

[Paladin777]

I think SS on terminator characters is pretty pointless. They need to get hit by -4 AP before the 4++ kicks in, and they already have a 5++.

 

The SS on a captain only effects incoming AP0, and you'd be so much better off taking a relic armor for a native 2+ anyway.

 

So yes, I do think that SS aren't as good on characters as they were before.

[Karhedron]

My Captain is getting an MC bolter instead for the time being, unless anyone has ba better idea?

 

I agree with your reasoning but I rather like packing an Inferno Pistol. A couple of slightly better bolter shots tend to be lacklustre but I have had that Inferno pistol slip in a big chunk of damage from time to time. A bargain for 5 points and the Captain is likely to be near the foe in any case.

[Karhedron]

This is a sort of indirect nerf to Shield of Sanguinius since a 5++ will only kick in when facing melta and similar now. It won't offerany protection against spammable weapons like plasma.

[BloodyB]

 

My Captain is getting an MC bolter instead for the time being, unless anyone has ba better idea?

 

 

I agree with your reasoning but I rather like packing an Inferno Pistol. A couple of slightly better bolter shots tend to be lacklustre but I have had that Inferno pistol slip in a big chunk of damage from time to time. A bargain for 5 points and the Captain is likely to be near the foe in any case.

That's a good point, paying 5pts for what is effectively an immensely powerful melee attack is rather handy. I might have to dig out the bits box again.

 

This is a sort of indirect nerf to Shield of Sanguinius since a 5++ will only kick in when facing melta and similar now. It won't offerany protection against spammable weapons like plasma.

I hadn't even considered this. It might be a good thing, letting us use different powers, especially those from the Librarius discipline. Null Zone can be amazing, but too often am I trying to protect my Sanguinary Guard. Letting them be more survivable and more killy is going to be great. I know not as many people take the Libby right now, but it is worth remembering just how flexible the spellslingers are.

 

Has anyone used Scouts recently? I just used 3 squads in a 750 point game and did well. With camo they are actually pretty tanky at range, and the sniper/missile combo is great at character deletion. Being functionally 1+ save T4 while in cover for 14pts a pop and deploying wherever they please is a real threat. I think that snipers might actually need to have a price increase... Not much, but with the change to bodyguards, those Scouts seem to have found their niche again. At least so far.

 

I rather wonder if the bodyguard rules change is indicative of future rule changes? By this I mean that GW have gathered a number of very similar rules, and collectively called them 'bodyguard rules'; will other rules be grouped into subsets, not too disimilar to the Universal Special Rules of yesteryear? Will GW say that all 'shrug saves' are ignored by some future weapon, and thus past rules need to be collected together in an update?

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

 

My Captain is getting an MC bolter instead for the time being, unless anyone has ba better idea?

 

I agree with your reasoning but I rather like packing an Inferno Pistol. A couple of slightly better bolter shots tend to be lacklustre but I have had that Inferno pistol slip in a big chunk of damage from time to time. A bargain for 5 points and the Captain is likely to be near the foe in any case.

That's a good point, paying 5pts for what is effectively an immensely powerful melee attack is rather handy. I might have to dig out the bits box again.

 

This is a sort of indirect nerf to Shield of Sanguinius since a 5++ will only kick in when facing melta and similar now. It won't offerany protection against spammable weapons like plasma.

I hadn't even considered this. It might be a good thing, letting us use different powers, especially those from the Librarius discipline. Null Zone can be amazing, but too often am I trying to protect my Sanguinary Guard. Letting them be more survivable and more killy is going to be great. I know not as many people take the Libby right now, but it is worth remembering just how flexible the spellslingers are.

 

Has anyone used Scouts recently? I just used 3 squads in a 750 point game and did well. With camo they are actually pretty tanky at range, and the sniper/missile combo is great at character deletion. Being functionally 1+ save T4 while in cover for 14pts a pop and deploying wherever they please is a real threat. I think that snipers might actually need to have a price increase... Not much, but with the change to bodyguards, those Scouts seem to have found their niche again. At least so far.

 

I rather wonder if the bodyguard rules change is indicative of future rule changes? By this I mean that GW have gathered a number of very similar rules, and collectively called them 'bodyguard rules'; will other rules be grouped into subsets, not too disimilar to the Universal Special Rules of yesteryear? Will GW say that all 'shrug saves' are ignored by some future weapon, and thus past rules need to be collected together in an update?

The problem with scouts is they have aged out. Nothing they do is better than anything primaris offer.

 

I have 15 scouts that I swore by for nearly 3 editions.

 

I'd rather have incursors/infiltrators to fill the melee option/obSec, or eliminators for ranged which are just over all better with built in cloaks rather than having to pay for them.

 

Our elites slot is already saturated, and wasting an elite slot for that was the final nail in the coffin for me on ever taking scouts again.

[Morticon]

I think SS on terminator characters is pretty pointless. They need to get hit by -4 AP before the 4++ kicks in, and they already have a 5++.

 

The SS on a captain only effects incoming AP0, and you'd be so much better off taking a relic armor for a native 2+ anyway.

 

So yes, I do think that SS aren't as good on characters as they were before.

 

AP3, no? Since they dont get to benefit from AOC

[Paladin777]

 

 

I think SS on terminator characters is pretty pointless. They need to get hit by -4 AP before the 4++ kicks in, and they already have a 5++.

 

The SS on a captain only effects incoming AP0, and you'd be so much better off taking a relic armor for a native 2+ anyway.

 

So yes, I do think that SS aren't as good on characters as they were before.

AP3, no? Since they dont get to benefit from AOC

Depends on how you look at it. I was referring to an invulnerable wave 'kicking in' when an armor save is reduced past an invulnerable, not when it matches the invulnerable.

 

-3 to match a 4++ on a terminator character (with either SS or AoC), or -4 for the 4++ to actually kick in and be necessary.

 

That's just the way I think about it.

[Diagramdude]

Beyond characters, AoC seems perfect for Sanguinary Guard jumping from cover to cover. Also lightning claw assault terminators, but they are much slower and can’t exploit terrain as much unless there’s a key objective to camp. Does anyone have recent gameplay feedback with these units from the tabletop?

[Karhedron]

Yes, I have been running SG throughout 9th, usually led by a Sanguinary Priest with Jump Pack and they have been working great for me. AoC makes them even better.

[Bonzi]

I just played a 2K game vs TSons to test out the new AoC on Blood Angels. I will say that BA finally feel durable enough to make it to the assault doctrine and still have enough punch to matter.

 

Units that can hug cover and still do their job are the biggest winners of the change. Plasma Inceptors and Sanguinary Guard are two biggest winners in this category, being able to completely shrug infernus bolters if they were in cover. I was also impressed with how durable Eliminators were in cover, but the sniper rifles are still a disappointment. I think next time I'll run las fusils on them.

 

I will say that AoC means bolters are worth a lot less verses other AoC armies so I think stock in most of the shooty Primaris troops has gone down. I think assault bolters are now a better choice on Intercessors because if your AP is gonna get ignored, you might as well deal in volume. Assault Intercessors more than paid for themselves in my game through sheer utility, capping and holding points and wrecking non-melee dedicated units. Getting -2ap and +1 attack once I hit assault doctrine let them burn through damage just by sheer volume.

[Karhedron]

I was also impressed with how durable Eliminators were in cover, but the sniper rifles are still a disappointment. I think next time I'll run las fusils on them.

Facing other Marines, bolt snipe eliminators are going to face a tough challenge because their targets also have AoC. I like to give my Sergeant Quake Bolts via the Angel Ascendent stratagem. Eliminators are great for these as they have BS2+ and it can really help your melee damage stick.

 

I think assault bolters are now a better choice on Intercessors because if your AP is gonna get ignored, you might as well deal in volume.

Agreed, quantity hasa quality all of its own.

[Jolemai]

Three games since AoC dropped now, using a variety of units - but all against a GK opponent. None of these musings will be particularly surprising tbh.

 

Once you get your head it, it's fine. Defense-wise it's obviously great - especially with Scouts - but things like Land Raiders just seem "ok". I mean, it's nice getting a 4+ Vs a lascannon but power armour and Scout armour getting 5s and 6s is :wub: maybe it's just that you expect a Land Raider to be attracting these shots and doing ok-ish with it, but infantry shrugging them off...

 

Offensive against AoC Factions is annoying given many of the bonuses we've received this edition have been nullified somewhat. Tactical Doctrine bolters, chainswords outside of Assault Doctrine, etc. I've been finding it very difficult to shift GK Ven Dreads in Tide of Shadows (in Light Cover > 12" away) with Armoured Resilience active (+1 armour save) - does make me wonder about similarly buffed things in cover that we can do.

 

As for Terminators, I left the shields on as I planned to park them in the centre of the board. It's still a 1+/4++ after all - bear in mind mixed loadout units will slow the game down a little bit as they have different saves (something I forgot with the sole LC chap).

[Paladin777]

What do you mean? The terminators only have different saving throws against -4 AP and greater. Otherwise the number needed on the die is the same for AP 0-3.

[The Unseen]

I took part in a local 10 man tourney this Saturday, and while AoC only really mattered in the last game, the meta difference was huge

Previously my area was full of DG, Custodes, and DE.

The reason it didn't come up much in the first 2 games was against Tsons, so the extra save vs the bolters was nice, I was really dying to mortal wounds. And the 2nd was a guy running 30 hellblasters in DA around azrael, apothecary, and banner.

I won both of them, but mostly because I sat on the midfield and scored points while I died without a save, but lived long enough that the opponent couldn't get close to the middle early enough to not get bodied on primary.

 

The 3rd game was vs CWE, and AoC and light cover meant my brick of 10 auto intercessors with a Priest with them just refused to die to the pointy-ears guns.

AP-3 on 6s with Hail of Doom, still getting a 4+ save.

[Brother Cruoris]

What do you mean? The terminators only have different saving throws against -4 AP and greater. Otherwise the number needed on the die is the same for AP 0-3.

AoC doesn't work with a storm shield.

AP -3 vs terminator in light cover would be a 3+ save thanks to AoC.

AP -3 vs a storm shield terminator in light cover would be the same. Since he won't get AoC.

[Paladin777]

That was my whole point! I just didn't factor cover.