Running new beakies from HH as intercessors in 40k?

[Orange Knight]

I want to add that the reason why my general stand on proxies is a "No" is because it's much harder to draw the line on what is and isn't acceptable once you open the floodgate.

 

In this topic someone asked about Mk6 Marines as Primaris, that is innocent enough even if I personally find it immersion breaking. Now what if someone asked to use a Rhino as an Impulsor? How about Thousand Sons as Plague Marines? Or how about a Castellan Robot as a Ghostkeel? It's kind of a similar profile after all.

 

It's hard to justify why some are ok and other go too far, especially as the argument on the kits being similar can be made about all examples above. (Seeing Thousand Sons runs as Plague Marines would be outright Heresy in my book lol, but at the end of the day it's a Marine in Power Armor with a Bolter...)

[CrystalSeer]

I want to add that the reason why my general stand on proxies is a "No" is because it's much harder to draw the line on what is and isn't acceptable once you open the floodgate.

 

In this topic someone asked about Mk6 Marines as Primaris, that is innocent enough even if I personally find it immersion breaking. Now what if someone asked to use a Rhino as an Impulsor? How about Thousand Sons as Plague Marines? Or how about a Castellan Robot as a Ghostkeel? It's kind of a similar profile after all.

 

It's hard to justify why some are ok and other go too far, especially as the argument on the kits being similar can be made about all examples above. (Seeing Thousand Sons runs as Plague Marines would be outright Heresy in my book lol, but at the end of the day it's a Marine in Power Armor with a Bolter...)

That makes sense if you expect people to act in bad faith, but most people don't. If they do, then you shouldn't play them on those grounds... They are trying to cheat.

 

But this game also has lots of people trying to build toys and have a good time. Conversion has been a part of this hobby since the beginning. It's been the norm for far longer than the exception. The idea of having a separate warscroll for each model load out really only started in the last 5 years or so. I remember when GW wrote articles on how to make landspeeders out of deodorant containers.

 

This is good for a couple reasons. First, it generates a lot of creativity that really helps the game and the players flourish. Second, it allows Warhammer to be accessible to people who may not be able to afford dropping $100+ on a squad so that the bolters are 1cm longer. It's a game. More people, and more people having fun, should be a good thing.

 

If you truly expect the people you are playing with to act in bad faith, and try and cheat the system to have an unfair advantage, then I would honestly take a look at who you are playing against and why.

 

It's about fun with cool people playing toys and roll playing cool stories.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

If you want to talk about acting in good faith, why not use the non-Primaris Space Marine models with the rules they're meant to be used with? People are allowed to have a no proxy stance if they want to. Nobody owes anyone else a game, nobody's entitled to use their proxies against whomever they please regardless of their opponent's permission or opinions. There are probably things that are completely legal in the official rules that many dislike or would refuse to play against, so why try and defend proxies which are completely outside of the bounds of the rules to begin with? It just smacks of arrogance and entitlement to come into a thread asking for opinions on proxies and then try to argue about why everyone should allow certain proxies.

 

Why are they even being proxied to begin with? Is it because Primaris have better rules? That's a bad look already before you even get into whether or not proxies should be acceptable. It's not as if you were downgrading the rules for the proxied model. It's having the cake and eating it too in this situation.

 

All those arguments aren't even good ones. This isn't converting, it's complete proxying. Converting beakies into Primaris would probably be far more widely accepted, but that isn't what this thread is about. It's not about saving money either, because you'd be going out and buying the brand new, pricier models. And at the end of the day, if you don't want to spend the money, just run them as non-Primaris. They're still playable! "But I want to play with Primaris rules!" Why? Because they're better? I thought the entire argument was whether or not people are acting in good faith. Trying to gain a rules advantage without putting in any sort of effort in regards to purchasing, trading, converting, or scratch-building the proper models seems like it's in pretty bad faith.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Tyberos the Red Wake

[Lord_Ikka]

I've played against people with proxied models all the time, from using plamaguns as meltas across an army (opponent's meltas were in the mail), to an entire army of Knights that were proxied with napkins (opponent grabbed the wrong army box and it was a 2-hour drive). I don't give a crap if someone proxies against me as long as it is consistent across the army and not a permanent thing as far as proxying a whole army- if you are trying out an army before investing in it or something like that, I'm good. Just don't expect me to play you for months with a "proxy" DG army that is actually GKs, that is would be too much for me. Trying to police others' hobby isn't something I want to do or want to have done to me. Aside from going to a tournament, no one should care about your opponent's army and if they do- don't play them. Let them find someone else to play with.

 

In this case, like I said before- I wouldn't care. You bought the models, put in the time to make/paint them, and if all said mk 6 marines are Intercessors across the army (and there are no Primaris Intercessors to confuse the issue) I wouldn't give a crap. 

Edited April 15, 2022 by Lord_Ikka

[phandaal]

It just smacks of arrogance and entitlement to come into a thread asking for opinions on proxies and then try to argue about why everyone should allow certain proxies.

 

 

No one here has said that anyone is obligated to play a game of 40k with them or that everyone should allow proxies.

 

People here all seem to be in agreement that they would not want to play 40k with someone firmly on the opposite side of the question, if that ever became a point of contention prior to the game. To me that seems like the opposite of saying that anyone has an obligation.

Edited April 14, 2022 by phandaal

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

Not trying to start a whole thing, just seeing posts like "power armor is power armor, what's the problem?" and "it's just a 1 cm longer bolter" and "those are only valid reasons if people act in bad faith therefore if I'm acting in good faith you should allow all my proxies" and "if they wouldn't allow it they're not fun anyways" makes it very obvious where the poster's stance on the matter lies and it's extremely dismissive of the very reasonable stance of not allowing shameless and effortless proxies, especially if the proxy is being upgraded in rules strength.

 

"The new beakies are slightly taller so I don't want to use them as Firstborn" feels like a really flimsy reason especially considering several Firstborn models are taller than normal across the large range of existing models. If someone had an actually good reason for the proxy besides "Primaris have better rules" or "beakies tall lol" then people would probably be more accepting of it.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Tyberos the Red Wake

[WrathOfTheLion]

One would reasonably conclude you would have a similar hostility to say flipping chapter tactics for their chapter with what's stronger, which I think is significantly more impactful as far as power moves than the fairly minor at this point distinction between a tactical marine and an intercessor.

 

That said, I'm not personally all that convinced intercessors are all that much 'better', and on top of that, the argument that making them be intercessors is a shameless (upgrade?) in rules strength (even though you pay the points anyways...) is a bit of an odd one to me.
 

I could totally understand the argument for wanting bolt rifles modeled on them or the loadouts being correct, but I really just don't find minutiae on a 2 point different models to be overly compelling.

Edited April 15, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[CrystalSeer]

Not trying to start a whole thing, just seeing posts like "power armor is power armor, what's the problem?" and "it's just a 1 cm longer bolter" and "those are only valid reasons if people act in bad faith therefore if I'm acting in good faith you should allow all my proxies" and "if they wouldn't allow it they're not fun anyways" makes it very obvious where the poster's stance on the matter lies and it's extremely dismissive of the very reasonable stance of not allowing shameless and effortless proxies, especially if the proxy is being upgraded in rules strength.

 

"The new beakies are slightly taller so I don't want to use them as Firstborn" feels like a really flimsy reason especially considering several Firstborn models are taller than normal across the large range of existing models. If someone had an actually good reason for the proxy besides "Primaris have better rules" or "beakies tall lol" then people would probably be more accepting of it.

You are correct. I am being outright dismissive. And here's the reason: the position that proxies = cheating is a false equivalence. What you are discussing is called modelling for advantage. Ie, making stuff shorter to dodge los.

 

What I am talking about is buying a kit because it looks cool and using it in your army, which is what OP was discussing. Then, the question becomes, is the model a reasonable representation of what it's being used for, ie size, load out, general profile, etc. Hence the comment, power armor space marines pretty much look alike.

 

Now, as far as intercessors vs firstborn, what is the size difference, less than a quarter inch? Is anyone really saying a slightly longer bolter and a few cm of height affect the game play significantly?

 

If that is not your argument, then it comes down to the kit being called something else on the box. I suppose for this, there is a personal bias: I don't think GW made primaris for lore reasons or for game mechanics; I think they made them to sell a new generation of space marine models to guys who already had hundreds of space marine models. From that assumption, I do not feel a moral imperative to buy every new kit GW chooses to make in order to have the 'exact' profile.

 

Because, the only reason I bother talking about this at all, is that requiring players to buy every new box to play rules, in a system that changes rules every three months at this point, is making a requirement that people spend hundreds of dollars every couple months as the price of admission to the game. That gentlemen, is gatekeeping. That is enforcing mechanics of pay-to-play, which is frankly bad for the hobby.

 

I take some pleasure in making my forces WYSIWYG at this point, but that's because after playing for decades, I can finally afford to. I couldn't afford to spend 100+ a month for most of the time I've played this game, and learned to love it.

 

So yeah, if you're going to a tournament and someone is trying to play stuff without flight stands so it can hide, I get it. But, please leave some room for guys that just want their infantry to be the cool models they saw come out last month. If the new player shows up at the table, and you turn him away and call him a cheater because he has the wrong style bolter marine, then we have less players, and frankly, I'm not sure that's the game I want to play.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Tyberos never said nor implied proxies constitute cheating but they are in poor form in my opinion and I loathe to have to play against them. I’ll never forget a game versus a WAAC gamer trying to draw line of sight from a raised chainsword on a scout sergeant proxied as a Dev sergeant.

[phandaal]

Tyberos never said nor implied proxies constitute cheating but they are in poor form in my opinion and I loathe to have to play against them. I’ll never forget a game versus a WAAC gamer trying to draw line of sight from a raised chainsword on a scout sergeant proxied as a Dev sergeant.

Have to assume this player would have been obnoxious regardless of the models they used. Had a casual game once with a guy who made a stink about me placing a model on top of some breachable terrain to represent that they were down in the building we said they could enter. Some people are just weird.

 

One sticking point here is that not everyone considers all proxies to be equal. Some people are saying this proxy would be within the bounds they consider acceptable for a variety of reasons, and other people saying any proxy at all is bad for their own reasons.

 

Wanting to play with models you can immediately identify at a glance is fair enough. As mentioned before everyone has the right to play or not play a game for whatever reason they choose.

 

Claims that this proxy is a power gamer move worthy of restriction, however, are silly and feel like they are brought up to "win" an argument rather than as something someone truly believes.

[Closet Skeleton]

One real issue with using bolt guns as bolt rifles is the weapon variants Intercessors have. If you have three squads of Mark VI marines but your army list has a stalker squad and an auto squad then your army isn't wysywyg.

 

A bolt rifle is not just a longer bolt gun, its three different variants of longer bolt gun. You could get some scopes to differentiate the stalker squad or convert drum magazines but straight out of the box the mark VI marines just aren't armed the way Intercessors are armed.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

"Claims that this proxy is a power gamer move worthy of restriction, however, are silly and feel like they are brought up to "win" an argument rather than as something someone truly believes."

 

The example given was general not specific… nor intended to slight the OP. It is a good example because it shows what lengths a WAAC player can go to when it comes to using proxies.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Black Blow Fly

[phandaal]

"Claims that this proxy is a power gamer move worthy of restriction, however, are silly and feel like they are brought up to "win" an argument rather than as something someone truly believes."

 

The example given was general not specific… nor intended to slight the OP. It is a good example because it shows what lengths a WAAC player can go to when it comes to using proxies.

 

Players like that really do ruin things for people acting in good faith.

 

Should have made it clear that my statement was not referring to your example there. It was addressing the argument that someone swapping Beakies for Intercessors is not acting in good faith because they are looking for some kind of power boost. To me, that is going too far.

 

My assumption is people saying that are looking for ways to win an argument here on the forums, not expressing something they truly believe.

[Marshal Mittens]

What is WAAC?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Win at all costs.

[Marshal Mittens]

I'm not that sort of player. I guess people assumed that in this thread? There are no prized in 40k, and being a jerk just wins you the no one will play you prize. I just like beakies, the new ones are bigger than my first born, and have only rifles like intercessors. Just thought they would be neat stand ins, and wanted to see folks opinions, which I guess I have.

[Lord_Ikka]

One real issue with using bolt guns as bolt rifles is the weapon variants Intercessors have. If you have three squads of Mark VI marines but your army list has a stalker squad and an auto squad then your army isn't wysywyg.

 

A bolt rifle is not just a longer bolt gun, its three different variants of longer bolt gun. You could get some scopes to differentiate the stalker squad or convert drum magazines but straight out of the box the mark VI marines just aren't armed the way Intercessors are armed.

That is a good point- if I was playing against this army I would like to have different bolt rifle squads able to be identified as such (even if it is just that each squad's sergeant has an unique weapon), or have all the Intercessor squads be armed identically. 

[Marshal Mittens]

Do most people have large amounts of intercessors with Auto, normal and stalker bolt rifles?

 

Most of the time when I play with folks we go over our army lists with one another so their are no surprises, but I have seen lots of people run bolt rifles that are not what they are modeled with? I have enough intercessors to run WYSIWYG, but never been bothered, personally, if someone says that the guys with the bolt rifles are auto bolt rifles this game. But I guess that's a personal preference on my part.

[Lord_Ikka]

I generally run three squads of Intercessors, two with autos and one with regular (modeled that way). I usually run WYSIWYG, but my regular bolt rifle Intercessors sub in for stalker depending on the game- since the stalker and regular are fairly similar no one has ever cared, and I've never run the autos as anything else. 

[MegaVolt87]

Its a dis-service to firstborn and primaris to proxy them as each other. Both stand apart well enough. Sure there are gaps in rules between the two, they should still be used in their intended roles despite that. 

[Blindhamster]

I always run my bolters as what they look like

[Closet Skeleton]

Do most people have large amounts of intercessors with Auto, normal and stalker bolt rifles?

 

Most of the time when I play with folks we go over our army lists with one another so their are no surprises, but I have seen lots of people run bolt rifles that are not what they are modeled with? I have enough intercessors to run WYSIWYG, but never been bothered, personally, if someone says that the guys with the bolt rifles are auto bolt rifles this game. But I guess that's a personal preference on my part.

 

I have three intercessor squads, two started as 5 man units from Dark Imperium before being bulked up so have regular bolt rifles, one has stalker bolt rifles and is made entirely with the full kit. I've never owned a squad with auto bolt rifles and never used one in game.

 

I have never proxied a bolt rifle as the wrong type. I built a unit of Stalkers 'because they were cool' before they got buffed to actually be worth using in Vigilus Defiant. I've basically used the same core Primaris army of 3 10 man Intercessor squads, a 5-6 strong Bolter Inceptor Squad, a Captain and an Ancient since Vigilus came out, only swapped out the extra characters and support units as the game has progressed. I have ditched one of the regular Intercessor squads for Incursors/Infiltrators on occaison.

 

I don't really care and I don't complain at a tournament if I see the wrong magazines on guns but really don't see why you would proxy them anyway.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Tyberos never said nor implied proxies constitute cheating but they are in poor form in my opinion and I loathe to have to play against them. I’ll never forget a game versus a WAAC gamer trying to draw line of sight from a raised chainsword on a scout sergeant proxied as a Dev sergeant.

 

Yeah, but there really isn't anything stopping that same player from using a devastator model with a raised chainsword. That stubby little scout sergeant isn't going to provide a larger benefit than making something from the current dev kit even with how crazy that old arm angle was. Completely agree that the guy was out of line, but I'd argue that they weren't even good at being a WAAC player because they had better options lol. Bottom line that person was the problem you'd have been miserable playing them without any proxies. 

 

For me personally I'm fine with proxies as long as I can tell what it is, and my opponent is clear and consistent. Kitbashing and conversions have always been a big part of 40k, and honestly if proxies aren't ok, then neither are they. Same for posable minis, if you can change the angle of torso and legs enough to make a model shorter it should be illegal. In my experience the people who put the time into converting & kitbashing are more concerned with people appreciating the work the put in, than being a WAAC player.

 

That said I use the Oroid Thaumaturge (an AOS model) as my daemon prince in my Thousand Sons. It's been accepted at both tournaments I've entered with my sons because I make it clear I'm using the axe and he doesn't have wings. If that model ever gets 40k rules, I'd use them and stop using him as a prince. I bring this up because I think there is a strong chance that tactical marines will gain an option to take those bayonets in 40k, because plastic HH kits get 40k rules. That changes this conversation a bit, because it will be confusing at that point.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

"Yeah, but there really isn't anything stopping that same player from using a devastator model with a raised chainsword. That stubby little scout sergeant isn't going to provide a larger benefit than making something from the current dev kit even with how crazy that old arm angle was. Completely agree that the guy was out of line, but I'd argue that they weren't even good at being a WAAC player because they had better options lol. Bottom line that person was the problem you'd have been miserable playing them without any proxies."

Disagree - when was the last time you saw a chainsword on a Dev sarge ?

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

"Yeah, but there really isn't anything stopping that same player from using a devastator model with a raised chainsword. That stubby little scout sergeant isn't going to provide a larger benefit than making something from the current dev kit even with how crazy that old arm angle was. Completely agree that the guy was out of line, but I'd argue that they weren't even good at being a WAAC player because they had better options lol. Bottom line that person was the problem you'd have been miserable playing them without any proxies."

Disagree - when was the last time you saw a chainsword on a Dev sarge ?

 

First of all, there is a chainsword in the devastator kit and honestly there really isn't a reason not to trade the pistol for it. It's free, and the chances of the sergeant living through to your shooting phase is pretty slim so take the extra attack and ap upfront it's more optimal than the base sergeant. That said my buddy Josh uses a power sword in his ultramarine squads, I play space wolves and long fang pack leaders just come with them (we get a bolter, pistol, and chainsword). So yeah, I've seen close combat weapons in devastator squads pretty often.

 

Honestly though if some rando is using a scout model with chainsword, and using that chainsword to justify LoS even though they don't that wargear. That person is the problem, they weren't even making a good faith effort they were just being a jerk.  Call the TO and get them kicked out or just leave if it's pickup game they aren't worth it. Judging everyone who wants to proxy based on what that idiot did is just wrong in my opinion.