Running new beakies from HH as intercessors in 40k?

[phandaal]

Expecting someone who is willingly giving up hours of their time to be happy about a discrepancy such as proxies is wrong.

 

Think they are expecting to not play the game together at all.

 

If it is important, it should be covered before the game. Then both parties can decide whether they do in fact want to spend hours of their time together.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

Yet again, more and more posts full of strawmen. "If he doesn't like proxies he wouldn't be fun to play against anways" "If you choose and pick your successor rules you're a hypocrite" "Bad faith etc etc" "Show me where it's written in the rulebook I can't use proxies". So much stupidity and dancing around the crux of the argument.

 

Why are you proxying to begin with? Why not use the assigned rules the models have? No, you don't have to do that, but if people are going to be this obtuse and intellectually dishonest, the other side deserves to hear your reasoning, of which I'm starting to suspect they're mostly going to be inane and stupid judging by the entitlement and crap opinions I'm seeing being spewed constantly.

 

Are you offended by this post? Do you feel I'm being insulting? Then good, because that's exactly how you people are acting.

 

t. someone who has used extremely disadvantageous and crippling rules since day 1 instead of proxying or picking another chapter's rules, including RAW and RAI legal ones.

Edited April 29, 2022 by Brother Tyler
Profanity removed

[Brother Kraskor]

Yet again, more and more posts full of strawmen. "If he doesn't like proxies he wouldn't be fun to play against anways" "If you choose and pick your successor rules you're a hypocrite" "Bad faith etc etc" "Show me where it's written in the rulebook I can't use proxies". So much stupidity and dancing around the crux of the argument.

 

Why are you proxying to begin with? Why not use the assigned rules the models have? No, you don't have to do that, but if people are going to be this obtuse and intellectually dishonest, the other side deserves to hear your reasoning, of which I'm starting to suspect they're mostly going to be inane and stupid judging by the entitlement and crap opinions I'm seeing being spewed constantly.

 

Are you offended by this post? Do you feel I'm being insulting? Then good, because that's exactly how you people are acting.

 

t. someone who has used extremely disadvantageous and crippling rules since day 1 instead of proxying or picking another chapter's rules, including RAW and RAI legal ones.

 

I don't think calling other hobbyists stupid helps anything!

 

Surely the response to the proxy question is "it depends". I can imagine fun games against proxyists and against purists, and unfun games against proxyists and purists. We're not going to find the 'correct' answer on the internet!

Edited April 29, 2022 by Brother Tyler
Quoted profanity removed

[Nuriel-666]

Well, there are two sides of the same coin. Or perhaps even more... Let's just assume that proverbial coin tossing is made in some Daemon World, shall we? 

Hypothetical sutuations, when my opponent bring shiny new squad of MK VI marines and says:

 

1) "I run my beakies as Intercessors because they are representing Dornian Heresy Ultramarines and Primaris rules help me better differentiate them from Firstborn marines",

 

2) "I run my beakies as Intercessors because I've bought them but don't really like current Firstborn playstyle and I want to test Primaris before buying proper models",

 

3) "I run my beakies as Intercessors because Primaris have better rules".

 

What are the differences between those scenarios? The intent of the player. 

 

 

Ad 1 - YES -  that guy put some effort into conceptualization of their army. Why does it important? Because the visuals are only a means to fuel our imagination. We push plastic and resin minis but we "see" real soldiers fighting on. In that case I could assume that opponent would probably use beakies as Primaris even if the former have superior rules. If playing tactical squad as Primaris help someone to better visualize their toy soldiers them who I am to judge?

 

Ad 2 - YES - fair enough. This is expensive hobby. I'm cool with that especially I won't be confused wthat is what. I would certainly play with you again couple of times until you made your mind or buy another army. Or if you and / or I want to spare before tournament or test other subfaction rules

 

ad 3 -  YES, BUT.... - If you are cool player and have no other potential rivals that day? Sure. If you are not cool player and you change your faction or subfaction too much, especially when the new, hot stuff come up from GW printers? Well, I probably go home. 

[Slave to Darkness]

One thing that I would suggest is to make sure to keep reinforcing what they are to your opponent. I think alot of the frustration with proxies is losing track of what things are in your opponents army.

Yeah back in 5th ed me and a friend were trying out drop pod lists, as we were reluctant to purchase so many pods just to try it out we proxied Carlsberg cans, normally that would have been fine but when we had cans as scenery, drop pods, ash trays and open ones for drinking it got confusing, its all fun and games until you take a swig from the ash can. :lol: Neither of us decided drop pod spam lists were for us, especially when it was £18 for something you need multiples of and will place on the table once and never move. 

 

 

As for the Mk6 as Primaris, to echo what others have said as long as you dont use the same minis for two different squads then go for it, or if you do at least give the 'Primaris' Mk6 different unit markings, helmet colour or the weird aprons marines use, after all its not like Devastators and Tacticals are different when they are using bolters. 

[Slave to Darkness]

 

 

Some people are fine with them, others are not. 

It depends, I dont mind proxying to try out a new unit a few times before you buy it, GW products are too expensive to go dropping £30+ on a squad that you may not gel with, but I do object when said person turns up every week with a few squads of Dark Angels, painted as Lamenters, whilst using the Wolf dex. the rest of his army was grey plastic with no guns or heads glued on, 'this is a tactical guy with plasma, who a few turns later has a melta gun, then becomes a devastator when two of his squads get closer to each other so you cant tell them apart.

I was a good sportsman and continued the game, I lost because I had no idea what in the Warp was going on and pretty much gave up (I owe it to the opponent to finish the game, only pulled out early twice in 30 years of gaming, its not a habit Im gonna start now).

The most frustrating thing is every time I saw him after that he was doing the same thing, he never painted anything, didnt even glue the guns/heads onto his marines, no effort whatsoever. That kind of behaviour leaves a sour taste in my mouth, I cant paint very well, and tbh I hate doing it because Im crap (I refuse to get stuff painted by others, I see that as cheating as its not MY army), BUT I paint regardless because I believe not only should I be a good sportsman (play to win but play fair and have a laugh doing so) but I also should put the effort into painting.

I dont like staring at unpainted armies week after week and I dont want my opponents doing the same thing, I try to make it enjoyable and painted armies fighting it out is much better for the players and anyone watching than looking at unpainted and partially built minis. 

 

I think I need a lay down after all that typing. :lol: 

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Yet again, more and more posts full of strawmen. "If he doesn't like proxies he wouldn't be fun to play against anways" "If you choose and pick your successor rules you're a hypocrite" "Bad faith etc etc" "Show me where it's written in the rulebook I can't use proxies". So much stupidity and dancing around the crux of the argument.

 

Why are you proxying to begin with? Why not use the assigned rules the models have? No, you don't have to do that, but if people are going to be this obtuse and intellectually dishonest, the other side deserves to hear your reasoning, of which I'm starting to suspect they're mostly going to be inane and stupid judging by the entitlement and crap opinions I'm seeing being spewed constantly.

 

Are you offended by this post? Do you feel I'm being insulting? Then good, because that's exactly how you people are acting.

 

t. someone who has used extremely disadvantageous and crippling rules since day 1 instead of proxying or picking another chapter's rules, including RAW and RAI legal ones.

 

I think the hypocrite post had more to do with Orange Knight running his fists as count as X, while having an issue with proxies. In fairness to Orange Knight, they don't use unique models, but it's a very nuanced stance because they were upfront about the rules being a factor when they started using them as BT. Personally. I'm fine with it, Imperial fists have a horrible supplement, and 40k is too big of an investment to be miserable. That said from the bottom of your post you might not be ok with it.

 

As far as why to proxy, the OP is thinking about doing it because he thinks the models look cool and mentions scale creep. Marshall Mittens already has the intercessors so it's not to gain some edge. My proxy is using an Ogriod Thaumaturge instead of a foot daemon prince for my thousand sons. If the Ogriod gets 40k rules which is pretty likely because GW keeps moving AoS units into the Thousand Son book, I'll use him as that (regardless of how good or bad they are). In the meantime, though my motivation is similar to Marshall Mittens, it just flat out looks better to me, and the size is really close. I also kit bashed my BGV they look too much like knights for space wolves, so I use assault intercessors with the shields from the Grey Slayer upgrade kit from FW. I did use the axes for one squad, but I have enough with power swords that if my opponent has an issue with that, I can just replace them. Typically, though most people like that they can tell the squads apart very quickly.

 

Beyond that most people proxy because they can't afford the GW stuff or can but need to test things first. You do see this a lot in leagues where some people just can't afford to add 250 points every other week 

 

I'm not offended by this post. That said I'm not making blanket statements either. I really feel that 40k should be more of "case by case" game. Talk to your opponent first go over rules, expectations, and fun. But it feels like everyone wants to skip this step and just play their version of it.

Edited April 29, 2022 by Brother Tyler
Quoted profanity removed

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Counts As and proxies are two totally different things.

[Slave to Darkness]

Counts As and proxies are two totally different things.

Whats the difference? 

[Brother Kraskor]

Counts As and proxies are two totally different things.

 

Think you might have to expand that one! 

[phandaal]

 

 

Counts As and proxies are two totally different things.

Think you might have to expand that one!

Thirded. Inquiring minds want to know!

[Blindhamster]

Colour me intrigued too!

[DesuVult]

I feel like I am on crazy pills reading some of this because of how much the 40k community used to even encourage proxying.

[Slave to Darkness]

I feel like I am on crazy pills reading some of this because of how much the 40k community used to even encourage proxying.

Im smelling like a lady of negotiable affections handbag at the moment trying to use up a deodorant stick to make one of these bad boys for my 1st ed games.

May even build three and run them as a Land Speeders in HH/40k. 

Edited April 23, 2022 by Slave to Darkness

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’ll explain tomorrow… I just made it to the state finals and am bushed.

[Grand_Master_Alpharius]

Prolly +1A.

I would prefer it be standard attacks at -1AP, instead of an additional attack, that makes more sense to me. 

 

As to the OP though, I'm pretty much the same as everyone else, as long as it was easy to keep track of, like they were only being used as primaris and nothing else, then I wouldn't have much of an issue with it. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

When I played 13th Company you could take Wulfen but there was no appropriated model so you had to kitbash your own… that’s something I consider counts as.

[Brother Kraskor]

When I played 13th Company you could take Wulfen but there was no appropriated model so you had to kitbash your own… that’s something I consider counts as.

 

Ok so it is a purely semantic thing you're getting at then. I think it is fairly widely-agreed that kitbashing/converting is different to proxying. Personally the natural meaning of 'counts as' is proxying, not converting, but that is getting pedantic. 

[Iron Lord]

When I played 13th Company you could take Wulfen but there was no appropriated model so you had to kitbash your own… that’s something I consider counts as.

 

 

What about the classic Wulfen metal models?

 

 

 

Were they not available for a while, forcing 13th Company players to kitbash?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I believe I built mine before those atrocities were available… either way they were definitely counts as, not proxies.

[Blindhamster]

been thinking on it, I suppose the difference between counts as and proxies would be:
- Counts as: model is a conversion that accurately depicts the unit in question, correct wargear on it etc. An example would be making eldar aspect warriors using corsairs as a base, but ensuring they have correct wargear (so howling banshee ones would have power sword, shuriken pistol and something to the helms to represent the banshee mask)?
- Proxy: model doesn't accurately represent the unit in question and could really be anything, even potentially not a model at all. An example being using a squad of imperial guard as tau firewarriors.

Is that the idea you're outlining Black Blow Fly?

 

The beakies as intercessors might be proxies if used stock, they have boltguns instead of boltrifles and aren't necessarily easy to distinguish from other non primaris marines. If they've been converted with some effort taken to represent the actual unit they're meant to be, they could be counts as? I guess the question is then, where is the line between the two? and is one more acceptable than the other? I know of the two above, I'd rarely have an issue with counts as as described but might be more likely to with proxy as described (though how much of an issue depends on the player, propensity for it throughout the army and what exactly is being used to proxy.... If someone ran a pure primaris list from a rules perspective and used firstborn models of any kind, I'd probably be fine with it for example, its not creating more mental load for me to manage so long as they're equipped consistently and appropriately throughout the army (so all intercessors use one gun type if they're all using stock bolt guns, hellblasters all have plasma guns, maybe heavy intercessors are mk3 marines or something))

I think thats the thing for me, the game has enough to remember as is, without my opponent making things /more/ confusing by using models that are clearly a different unit option as a totally different unit. I want to have fun, and it's not fun to have even more to track (for me at least).

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

"been thinking on it, I suppose the difference between counts as and proxies would be:

- Counts as: model is a conversion that accurately depicts the unit in question, correct wargear on it etc. An example would be making eldar aspect warriors using corsairs as a base, but ensuring they have correct wargear (so howling banshee ones would have power sword, shuriken pistol and something to the helms to represent the banshee mask)?
- Proxy: model doesn't accurately represent the unit in question and could really be anything, even potentially not a model at all. An example being using a squad of imperial guard as tau firewarriors.

"Is that the idea you're outlining Black Blow Fly?"

 

Absolutely.

Edited April 24, 2022 by Black Blow Fly

[WrathOfTheLion]

So in that definition, if one took the MK VI and combined with real bolt rifle (or auto, or stalker) wargear converted on, we'd be at Mk VI 'counts as' intercessors, yes?

 

In the end, I think that's how most reasonable folks would be concerned.

[Cactus]

As always when this topic comes up it seems clear that there is only one answer to the broad question "is this variation from the standard model ok?" That is, speak to your prospective opponent. Some will be fine with it, some won't. The reasons for that will be varied, subjective and unique to each person. Remember that whether they say yes or no they aren't wrong to do so.

[MegaVolt87]

been thinking on it, I suppose the difference between counts as and proxies would be:

- Counts as: model is a conversion that accurately depicts the unit in question, correct wargear on it etc. An example would be making eldar aspect warriors using corsairs as a base, but ensuring they have correct wargear (so howling banshee ones would have power sword, shuriken pistol and something to the helms to represent the banshee mask)?

- Proxy: model doesn't accurately represent the unit in question and could really be anything, even potentially not a model at all. An example being using a squad of imperial guard as tau firewarriors.

 

Is that the idea you're outlining Black Blow Fly?

 

The beakies as intercessors might be proxies if used stock, they have boltguns instead of boltrifles and aren't necessarily easy to distinguish from other non primaris marines. If they've been converted with some effort taken to represent the actual unit they're meant to be, they could be counts as? I guess the question is then, where is the line between the two? and is one more acceptable than the other? I know of the two above, I'd rarely have an issue with counts as as described but might be more likely to with proxy as described (though how much of an issue depends on the player, propensity for it throughout the army and what exactly is being used to proxy.... If someone ran a pure primaris list from a rules perspective and used firstborn models of any kind, I'd probably be fine with it for example, its not creating more mental load for me to manage so long as they're equipped consistently and appropriately throughout the army (so all intercessors use one gun type if they're all using stock bolt guns, hellblasters all have plasma guns, maybe heavy intercessors are mk3 marines or something))

 

I think thats the thing for me, the game has enough to remember as is, without my opponent making things /more/ confusing by using models that are clearly a different unit option as a totally different unit. I want to have fun, and it's not fun to have even more to track (for me at least).

 

Thats a fair assessment and I agree. Proxy is the negative, counts as is the positive. The difference is also the counts as may be an abomination to your taste, but its obvious the other guy executed it with effort and intent so you can respect it. Proxy is the lazy end, often the purview of the band wagoner looking for todays advantage ready to drop it the moment something comes thats "better". The only time proxies are really acceptable is if you know the other guy has a light wallet situation or trying something temporarily before they buy in later, and if they are buying in you see some of those proxies swapped out for the real deal.