Warpmeld Pact

[Brother Kraskor]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/04/11/command-a-near-endless-horde-of-teleporting-tzaangor-in-the-new-warpmeld-pact-army-of-renown/

 

What do we think! 

 

No Temporal Surge, Twist of Fate, or Presage isn't good. No +1 to cast either.

 

5+++ against mortals is nice and something we don't otherwise get. Pregame move is nice but Temporal Surge is better. Not sure why I'd want to put three Tzaangor units into reserve as they just don't hit hard enough. 

 

Braychange would be fantastic if i) it worked on witchfire or ii) it could heal Rubrics/Scarabs, but sadly neither is the case. (Imagine Magnus casting Devolution with three dice, potential result of 23 on the test, and then healing D3 Scarabs! Alas.)

 

Ephemeral existence is meh. Could charge some Tzaangors through a screen but canny opponents will just make sure you can't fit ten models around a character.

 

Overall I'm not sure it's worth losing +1 to cast and a whole psychic discipline (and vehicles), thoughts?

Edited April 11, 2022 by Brother Kraskor

[WarriorFish]

Without vehicles you're making an army already short on AT that much shorter so this feels like a notable limitation. Maybe I'm missing something but this seems lacklustre, short of having plenty of Tzaangor you want on the table I'm not sure on what it offers?

[Brother Kraskor]

Without vehicles you're making an army already short on AT that much shorter so this feels like a notable limitation. Maybe I'm missing something but this seems lacklustre, short of having plenty of Tzaangor you want on the table I'm not sure on what it offers?

 

Yeah agreed. And it's not as if the Tzaangor limitation has ever been a problem for listbuilding as they rarely see play, and if they do there's always enough Rubrics/Scarabs to cover them. Not at all like the Poxwalker situation for DG.

 

Losing +1 to cast and a whole discipline for 5+++ against MW - I just don't think it's worth it.

[Relentless]

I'm struggling to see what this even offers besides the FNP for mortals.  Yay, we can spam the worst unit in the codex now...

[Ahzek451]

It's getting to be a meme at this point "stop making Tzaangors happen...its not going to happen". A pure Tzaangor army is something no-one asked for, and not to say everyone hates them, but Tzaangors are meant to help supplement the stars of the show. The marines. And they don't do a good job at that currently. This is clearly a move to clear the warehouse full of tzaangors. 

In essence, its an AoR made up of some of the worst units in the book and to further add insult to injury: so far it seemingly doesn't even elevate them to a desirable status. It's clear this is GW trying to make Tzaangors a thing in 40k. They certainly can be, I want them to be, but they are going about in such a dumbfounding manner. 

Sorry to sound salty, just a touch passionate about it. Who knows, maybe there is more to the rules. 

[Brother Kraskor]

It's getting to be a meme at this point "stop making Tzaangors happen...its not going to happen". A pure Tzaangor army is something no-one asked for, and not to say everyone hates them, but Tzaangors are meant to help supplement the stars of the show. The marines. And they don't do a good job at that currently. This is clearly a move to clear the warehouse full of tzaangors. 

 

In essence, its an AoR made up of some of the worst units in the book and to further add insult to injury: so far it seemingly doesn't even elevate them to a desirable status. It's clear this is GW trying to make Tzaangors a thing in 40k. They certainly can be, I want them to be, but they are going about in such a dumbfounding manner. 

 

Sorry to sound salty, just a touch passionate about it. Who knows, maybe there is more to the rules. 

 

Agreed. I think they should replace our Cultists at 5pts but with their current rules. 

[sitnam]

It's getting to be a meme at this point "stop making Tzaangors happen...its not going to happen". A pure Tzaangor army is something no-one asked for, and not to say everyone hates them, but Tzaangors are meant to help supplement the stars of the show. The marines. And they don't do a good job at that currently. This is clearly a move to clear the warehouse full of tzaangors.

 

In essence, its an AoR made up of some of the worst units in the book and to further add insult to injury: so far it seemingly doesn't even elevate them to a desirable status. It's clear this is GW trying to make Tzaangors a thing in 40k. They certainly can be, I want them to be, but they are going about in such a dumbfounding manner.

 

Sorry to sound salty, just a touch passionate about it. Who knows, maybe there is more to the rules.

Now correct me if I’m wrong, as I’m a hobby guy (dabbling in KT where Tzaangors are actually good, but no 40k for me), but weren’t Tzaangors actually good in 8th? I thought people disliked how they overshadowed Rubrics, so alongside Rubrics getting better with stuff like Cabal points they made Tzaangors worse and limited their unit numbers in detachments.

 

I actually like the idea behind this AOR, but even if I got into 40k it’d be for narrative stuff and I’m also very pro-Tzaangor, so grains of salt apply

 

@Brother Kraskor: I don’t think they should replace cultists. I wished we got more expanded cultist rules for every legion, but I also like the cult legions having the own special auxiliaries

Edited April 13, 2022 by sitnam

[Lucky_Lee]

I don't know of a single TSons player I've ever met that was like "I play Thousand Sons for the goats."

Tzaangor on foot are barely playable. Cheap Flakk units with a 5++ aren't terrible but the shaman and enlightened are near useless.

There's an easy answer for this bois... don't buy the book. If they can't put good rules in it don't buy it. Money is the only language they understand apparently because they keep cramming it in box sets we keep buying. uhg

They've been shoveling us Tzaangors in every box set. I feel like they do it because they can't sell them in AoS.

TSons Combat Patrol should literally be 1 Exalted Sorcerer, 1x10 Rubric Marines and 1x5 Scarab Occult Terminators.

BAM! EZPZ! SELLS LIKE ITS GOT THE CURE FOR WHAT AILS YA! 

The best part is it would be as advertised on the tin. Thousand Sons. A Thousand Sons box actually being made up of thousand sons would just knock me off my rocking chair. Boy howdy we'd be living in the 41st Millenium then huh?

[Xenith]

 

Now correct me if I’m wrong, as I’m a hobby guy (dabbling in KT where Tzaangors are actually good, but no 40k for me), but weren’t Tzaangors actually good in 8th? I thought people disliked how they overshadowed Rubrics, so alongside Rubrics getting better with stuff like Cabal points they made Tzaangors worse and limited their unit numbers in detachments.

 

 

Yea, Tzaangors were the effetive build in 8th, as they had good WS and attacks, and could fight again cheap - then they got triple nerfed - worse WS, no fight again, and limited numbers (+point increase??) so nerfed into uselessness. Seems the Combat Patrol box builders and the rules team weren't aligned so much, and they built a combat patrol that would have been great for 8th, but useless with the 9th ed codex. 

 

When 6/9 cults are objectively bad and one is mediocre, this would be the place I'd start to reinvigorate the community - however I guess they've seen how TS armies have gone to mass rubrics, which are effective. Some weak rules wont spark life into dead units - look at crusher stampede. That needed absolutely bonkers/borderline broken rules to make the army popular again. 

[Ahzek451]

Its fair to say "hold on to your hats we haven't seen ALL the rules yet", but I won't be willing to bet there are any un-shown gems to the Tzaangor AoR that will make it suddenly appealing. I can see someone using the rules MAYBE to get more mileage out of spawn at the most. But the salt in the wound is that from what we can glean, this AoR doesn't appear to do anything to make these already bland units better. 

However, glancing at the facebook response to the article its worth noting that these responses from the community were pretty universal with a lot likes to a few particular posts. GW knows that we want more models, but it's nice to see the fan base drop heavy hints once in awhile.  GW has shown to be listening to a lot of fan requests(just takes awhile, as normal) and I think there is another wave coming at some point that will more than likely feature a psychic dreadnought among other things. 

[Ahzek451]

 

 

Now correct me if I’m wrong, as I’m a hobby guy (dabbling in KT where Tzaangors are actually good, but no 40k for me), but weren’t Tzaangors actually good in 8th? I thought people disliked how they overshadowed Rubrics, so alongside Rubrics getting better with stuff like Cabal points they made Tzaangors worse and limited their unit numbers in detachments.

 

 

Yea, Tzaangors were the effetive build in 8th, as they had good WS and attacks, and could fight again cheap - then they got triple nerfed - worse WS, no fight again, and limited numbers (+point increase??) so nerfed into uselessness. 

 

This is a good example of GW's "pendulum swing" practice. They heard the fans rage about rubrics not getting enough love, and instead of finding a nice middle ground, they overcompensate like what Xenith said. In addition to all the things they took, they also took the funky special rule that allows easier hits to characters. Nothing fancy but why so many things? 

 

I love tzaangors. They are a fluffy edition to our legion and as mortal followers they make total sense. They have existed in the lore well before there models and rules hit reality. GW just needs to work on fine-tuning our bird men/cannon fodder. 

 

i'm just hoping GW can eventually work in a way to include Tzeentch daemon allies without breaking our "pure bonus". 

[GreenPlasma]

I think showing Tzaangors some love is fine. The faction has essentially 3 aspects in my understanding : the final remnants of the legion, the effects of unchecked mutation, and daemonic influence. There's also a tactical sensibility to this. Disposable units like Tzaangors should be gumming up the frontline while Rubrics lay down firepower.

 

Ideally, Tzaangors would be as good as Spawn. Not exactly iconic, but certainly useful in their own way.

[Malakithe]

I love Tzaangors as models but losing all that extra stuff? Na man...need those mind bullets and bonuses

[Relentless]

The new dataslate makes this almost useless now since the only thing going for tzaangors offensively (ap1) just got nerfed

[Ulfast]

Lol, that's true. It got from bad to worse. I don't see any play this now except some AoS player that got plenty of goats and want to try 40k.

[Mushkilla]

I'm still holding out and hoping the second half of the rules will let you sacrifice goats to do fun things. A new psychic discipline, more rituals, some complex pentagram you have to make with your models to unlock the 9th level of hell. Not a huge fan of goats, but I could get behind running characters and duplicitous rituals that involve our maligned bird goats... 

Edited April 21, 2022 by Mushkilla

[Prot]

You know I don’t want to sound negative but I’ve always disliked GW cramming fantasy leftovers into TS when there were so many other places that effort should have went to. I know this is the hill I like to die on, but it still irks me. 
 

What I mean by this is I would love to see the effort used on…. Let’s say a psychic cabal ala Wrath of Magnus that includes minor psykers in a utility role (no force org spot) that works much like the Warlock squad for Eldar …. And heck maybe finally the Dreads have a psychic power as a side effect?  
 

nope… marketing says get all those start collecting boxes full of Tzaangors out the door. (I’m sure there’s a collecting dust joke in there somewhere!). 
 

To me the best use of it is hopping around the board in the early game, resurrecting more Terminators…even for 6 Cabal points. The rules cost is quite high though. I mean I’m as big a fan of Spawn as anyone, but it feels like another missed opportunity to move some low selling kits.  

[sitnam]

You know I don’t want to sound negative but I’ve always disliked GW cramming fantasy leftovers into TS when there were so many other places that effort should have went to. I know this is the hill I like to die on, but it still irks me.

I get where you are coming front but only the Mutalith Vortex Beast is a “fantasy leftover”. Sure, Tzaangors first came out in Silver Tower, but Wrath of Magnus released just a few months later and actually precedes Disciples of Tzeentch. This isn’t a case of “well we have the fantasy thing, let’s just throw it into 40k”. The Tzaangors were always meant to be dual release. Even prior to that, the idea of god marked beastmen went WAY back into the old Chaos lore

 

Edit: This is also a weird hill I'll die on. If I was an AdMech guy I'd be on that subforum defending Electropriests, so I having something for misbegotten models

Edited May 2, 2022 by sitnam

[Prot]

 

You know I don’t want to sound negative but I’ve always disliked GW cramming fantasy leftovers into TS when there were so many other places that effort should have went to. I know this is the hill I like to die on, but it still irks me.

I get where you are coming front but only the Mutalith Vortex Beast is a “fantasy leftover”. Sure, Tzaangors first came out in Silver Tower, but Wrath of Magnus released just a few months later and actually precedes Disciples of Tzeentch. This isn’t a case of “well we have the fantasy thing, let’s just throw it into 40k”. The Tzaangors were always meant to be dual release. Even prior to that, the idea of god marked beastmen went WAY back into the old Chaos lore

 

Edit: This is also a weird hill I'll die on. If I was an AdMech guy I'd be on that subforum defending Electropriests, so I having something for misbegotten models

 

as a big Thousand sons fan the idea of porting over goats from fantasy ( I don’t care it it was intended…it is exceptionally uninteresting to me) just meant too many other things got skipped. I didn’t want this to go too far off topic though so let’s just say… if you love those goats, this is your detachment then. 

Edited May 3, 2022 by Prot

[Closet Skeleton]

You know I don’t want to sound negative but I’ve always disliked GW cramming fantasy leftovers into TS when there were so many other places that effort should have went to. I know this is the hill I like to die on, but it still irks me. 

 

What I mean by this is I would love to see the effort used on…. Let’s say a psychic cabal ala Wrath of Magnus that includes minor psykers in a utility role (no force org spot) that works much like the Warlock squad for Eldar …. And heck maybe finally the Dreads have a psychic power as a side effect? 

Porting units from fantasy literally takes no modeling resources, that's why they did it with the Vortex beast. Getting no new models with the 8th book sucked but the majority of codexes releases were in that boat, there's no missing opportunity for a psychic dreadnought sprue you were cheated out of. TS got the short end of the stick compared to DG because one was the prototype and came at the end of 7th and the other was the big Starter box release for the start of 8th, dual purpose Age of Sigmar units have nothing to do with it. I like Beastmen much more than I like Zombies but its clear that I wasn't cheated out of anything by GW 'waisting' resources on those power walkers. Unless another legion comes in the 9th ed starter box I doubt a future WE or EC release will be as substantial as the DG range.

 

If anything was a waste of resources it was the Infernal Master who's just another foot Sorcerer, not the Tzaangor upgrade sprue from years earlier.

 

The point of armies of renown is that they're specialised formations for campaign supplements. Wishlisting stuff you want to see in regular armies is completely off topic. A TS army of renown was completely unnecessary but it was never going to be based around Rubrics as that's just the core army, same reason the DG army of renown is zombie based not plague marine based and the Orks got Kult of Speed rather than Green tide. Only exceptions are the Deathwatch one which does just buff a lackluster designed codex supplement and the Skitari veterans which was a mistake caused by poor internal balance in the admech book rather than being intended as just the main codex+.

 

My opinion on Terminus Est is pretty much identical to the negative opinion on Tzaangor hordes from this thread but I've never been motivated to moan about it and don't begrudge anyone who does like it.

Edited May 3, 2022 by Closet Skeleton

[Ahzek451]

It's bittersweet, on one hand keep in mind that as we have seen thus far, AoR are not everlasting. Some of them that came out a couple years ago are already axed as "official" from GW. So this one may only last for a couple years.

I am happy with the idea of tzaangors. One of the things that sets chaos marines apart from space marines is the inclusion of mortal followers and chaf. Established in the lore for a long time but without models or rules for years. I sit more in the middle however, agreeing that the marines are the stars of the show and preferring that the rules keep them at the forefront but also maintaining the usefulness of the beastmen. A difficult thing to balance, but unfortunately seems like an unhinged pendulum swing as currently the balance of power is incredibly too far in the marine direction. I would sure love to get more use out of enlightened, shaman, and the bray's themselves (particularly the enlightened). 

As Closet Skeleton mentioned, I do recall talk in the design studio on the order of things. As we know, decisions and model design is a slow moving ship and this stuff is done over the course of months to years. The sons were an experiment to dip the toes in to the highly demanded God-legion waters, and unfortunately or fortunately(depends how you look at it), we were first pick and then at some point GW decided to go FULL IN with DG. GW knows where have a short list. We are our own faction and I don't think there is a chance that we will be folded back into the chaos marine codex like the harlequins with eldar. I'm sure they have a bunch of new non-tzaangor toys in the works to help expand us in a new wave. GW likes to drop these sort of hints in the lore. Just look at everything that's been happening in that regard. GW has been making moves. The sons now have 2 planets and a mini-kingdom carved out that is NOT in the Eye. And the lore has described that Ash'd Prospero has been turned into a military base and production base. Not to mention all the the things Magnus has been up to calling psykers to him. 

I imagine GW is building up to a sweet second wave release at some point. And since 8th, if you notice, if there is a repeat demand in the facebook comment section for something there is a good chance of GW making the model. So...psychic dread fans, they have heard you . 

 

That all being said, this faction needs some new life but I don't think the warpmeld pack will do it for me. But as always, I'll wait until the full rules is out. 

Edited May 3, 2022 by Ahzek451

[byrd9999]

 

It's getting to be a meme at this point "stop making Tzaangors happen...its not going to happen". A pure Tzaangor army is something no-one asked for, and not to say everyone hates them, but Tzaangors are meant to help supplement the stars of the show. The marines. And they don't do a good job at that currently. This is clearly a move to clear the warehouse full of tzaangors. 

 

In essence, its an AoR made up of some of the worst units in the book and to further add insult to injury: so far it seemingly doesn't even elevate them to a desirable status. It's clear this is GW trying to make Tzaangors a thing in 40k. They certainly can be, I want them to be, but they are going about in such a dumbfounding manner. 

 

Sorry to sound salty, just a touch passionate about it. Who knows, maybe there is more to the rules. 

 

Agreed. I think they should replace our Cultists at 5pts but with their current rules. 

 

 

I second this. Keep the stats the same but make them cheaper. Simple.