Why i am looking forward to start playing 30k

[nordsturmking]

I am really looking forward to playing HH 2.0. I never played 30k but i played a lot of 40k 3th-7th Ed and 8th-9th in 8th and 9th mostly with Custodes. I played more than 10 tournaments in 8th/9th and i also played a lot of casual and a bit of crusade.

I miss USR and a few other things from 7th.

And i don't like a few things in 9th for example the multipile layers of buffs you can but on a unit. Like +1 to hit, more armor penetration, +1 shot for every modell. This boost a unit of 20 Admech rangers from 40 shots with BS 3+ S4, AP -1 , 1 dmg to 60 shots with BS 2+ S4, AP -2 , 1 dmg
The first example kill 3,3 primaris marines
The second example kills 8,3 primaris marines thats nuts and you could buff them even more.
This shows that looking at a unit and its data sheet in 9th Ed does not really tell you how much damage it can do or how tough it is.

And another thing is with the stats and power creep in 8th and 9th Ed, Custodes don't play like how they are represeted in the fluff. Most weapons have no speacial rules. And deathwing knights and death guard terminators have a better profile and better rules than a custodes and deal more damage.

Does anybody else sees this like me or has similar reasons?

Edited April 12, 2022 by nordsturmking

[Marshal Rohr]

I don’t think Custodes and SoS are dropping at release

[Lautrec the Embraced]

This shows that looking at a unit and its data sheet in 9th Ed does not really tell you how much damage it can do or how tough it is.

 

Yeah, that would NEVER happen in the Heresy!

 

*cue to World Eaters Tacticals going from S4 A1 base to S6 A5 rerolling to hits and 1s to wound. 

 

Just joking of course, glad you want to give 30k a go, for me the 9th ed is way more hectic and somewhat bland in comparison to often narrative-driven 30k games. Let's hope Heresy 2.0 will be enjoyable

[nordsturmking]

I don’t think Custodes and SoS are dropping at release

Why not? How much later would you guess?

[nordsturmking]

 

This shows that looking at a unit and its data sheet in 9th Ed does not really tell you how much damage it can do or how tough it is.

 

Yeah, that would NEVER happen in the Heresy!

 

*cue to World Eaters Tacticals going from S4 A1 base to S6 A5 rerolling to hits and 1s to wound. 

 

Just joking of course, glad you want to give 30k a go, for me the 9th ed is way more hectic and somewhat bland in comparison to often narrative-driven 30k games. Let's hope Heresy 2.0 will be enjoyable

 

You got me there for a moment XD

Edited April 12, 2022 by nordsturmking

[N1SB]

Does anybody else sees this like me or has similar reasons?

 

I'll briefly share some past experience that is currently relevant again.

 

What you're feeling now, I believe, is what a number of us felt around 7th edition when we switched to 30k.  Do you remember when 7th ed introduced and was dominated by Formations?  My group of Warhammer friends quickly adopted 30k because we weren't playing against an opponent, but against a janky Formation.

 

It got to a point where when 8th was about to come out, instead of getting excited, we held a "wait & see" stance.  If 8th was good, we'd go with it.  If not, we were happy to stick with 30k.  It turned out early 8th was really great, we were happy to switch to that, but we always had 30k as a fallback option.

 

Word to the wise - there were a few weird things in 30k 1st ed.  30k allows you to have an All-Predators army or an All-Dreadnoughts army, which appear to be returning, and can be a little bit All Or Nothing.  Custodes was great, as is expected, but Mechanicum happens to be way deadly with very anti-MEQ weapons.

 

I, too, look forward to returning to 30k, and what I'm saying is, it kinda feels like for the same reason I went to 30k in the 1st place with the current 40k meta.

[Marshal Mittens]

Looking forward to 30k for narrative games and collecting a few large cool looking army that hit me in the feels in terms of nostalgia. 8e brought me back to 40k, and honestly in 9e I have very little desire to play, though I like doing the hobby still.

 

It seems they forgot all the lessons on balance they learned between 7th and 8th. I know so many people who, like me, had been away and came back for 8th, who are just not feeling the hobby at the moment because of the simplely insane bloat.

 

The current core rules are not horrible, but everything added to them is just...not fun. Every weapon was turned up to 10 and you get more rerolls and BS and AP and damage from a ton of different stacking things, the first turn decides 90% of games with who goes first and gets to chuck buckets of high str high ap shots at the other player. Most of both armies are probably off the table in the first turn or two. I dont spend months painting an army, or bring a big one to a game, just to pick half of it up on the first turn before I even get to act. But that's 9e. Super killy, everything bloated. The d6 system is breaking down when everything is BS 2 rerolling 1s, wounding on 2s or 3s, shooting a ton of shots.

 

I dont know, if feels like a game that's built for the 1% who can buy a new flavor of the month army, meta chasers who play big events and just want to win. But GW is sacrificing their core fans because they want to impress a few youtubers who get a lot of views so they think the community must be like them.

 

I'm hoping 30k 2.0 is a return to a more tactical, more balanced game.

 

And I like beakie marines a lot.

[Brofist]

I think the main thing you'll find with the upcoming 30k release is that its both a tighter ruleset and also a community that's dominated by narrative players. Not to say there aren't competitive players, but its way more about the hobby. Slower pace also means you're encouraged to not chase a meta. I expect all of this to evolve with an influx of new players of course, but this is the way its been for years.

[The Scorpion]

Putting hobby before games is the wisest thing you can do.

 

Rules come and go, but minis are forever.

[Noserenda]

Putting hobby before games is the wisest thing you can do.

 

Rules come and go, but minis are forever.

100% this, that and any game can be narrative if you want it to, thats entirely on you, not the rules :D 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Just remember that when heresy was in full swing back in 2016 that you didn't see this mantra of heresy being for mainly narrative. The tactica sections were in full swing, and people loved talking tactics and strategies of their favourite legions.

 

It was only when the game started to stagnate with a combo of range cuts, lack of support, and a newer 40k that narrative first really dominated.

 

Hopefully 2nd edition avoids the churn that modern 40k is emblematic of, so there's no "feels bad" purchases that are then nerfed into the ground.

[dicebod]

Just remember that when heresy was in full swing back in 2016 that you didn't see this mantra of heresy being for mainly narrative. The tactica sections were in full swing, and people loved talking tactics and strategies of their favourite legions.

 

It was only when the game started to stagnate with a combo of range cuts, lack of support, and a newer 40k that narrative first really dominated.

 

Hopefully 2nd edition avoids the churn that modern 40k is emblematic of, so there's no "feels bad" purchases that are then nerfed into the ground.

Hmmm...It's all relative. Like, even back in 2015/2016 with the release of the first plastics, Heresy was the narrative *alternative* to 40k. Remember late 7th edition formations?

 

Bringing a strong list to a "narrative" game is something that makes sense. After all, the Legions were military organizations that didn't necessarily care about "going easy" on their opponents.

 

I think the narrative distinction comes in when we talk about really egregious lists, like the infamous "Warhound sitting on a skyshield landing pad" debacle of Adepticon a few years ago. I'm generalizing here, but the 30k vibe is more about creating a cool force that you are proud to put on the table that will make for great games than it is about "hey, check out this net list that spams an obviously overtuned unit to levels of absurdity that I'm going to drop on eBay as soon as the newest OP thing is released."

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well back then, we didn't see mono-faction and rigid-FOC adherence as narrative lol. Having a fairly rigid FOC and being mostly mono-faction was simply classic 40k, and had been how people built armies for three and a half editions.

 

People definitely wanted to get away from the state of 7th and stuff like void shield generator spam, landing pad+unit of choice, and maugen Ra+giant artillery fortification style of proto-8th edition lists.

 

But there really wasn't this focus on narrative above everything. People had some incredible modelling and converting on the heels of constant model releases; simultaneously people made competent, synergistic lists and discussed their legions tactics. No one judged anyone for building/painting whatever they wanted, but list building advice and tacticas weren't drowned in caveats that 30k is narrative and non-competetive.

 

Like the other day, the admin of the crusade and heresy group had a post about teaching newcomers interested due to the announcement of 2nd on how to list build. The main points were:

 

-make a themed force,

-don't spam units (like take one sicaran venator, not multiples [even though they're trash]),

-don't take alpha strike/trade units because your opponent doesn't get to use their units, and,

-don't take the best units; take less efficient ones.

 

That kind of statment would have been laughed out back then, but it's very much become the norm.

Edited April 13, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk

[Slips]

Yeah; like, theres a reason a fair few of us from back then all basically answer any and all new player questions of "How do I deal with a spartan" in the same way:

• Primaris Lightning with Kraken Penetrators from side/rear armor
• 2x Box Dreads with 2x Graviton Guns in drop pods to near-instantly shave off 4hp on whatever you want
• Grav Rapiers
• Landspeeders with gravgun spam

Its also why the CML + MM + HKM Javelin loadout is as popular as it is; 5 S8 shots at BS5 (strafing run) per Javelin was just too good to pass up compared to, say, the TL Lascannon.

 

Its also why janky stuff was found at all such as the multiple threads/discussions around what "Compulsory Troops" are and how people didn't actually understand what that meant because of the Recon Company RoW (those discussions literally shaved years off my life I swear; I felt like I was going insane).

 

And its why the Dreadnought Drop pod was changed to force disembark the dread since, before, it didn't and between that and some rules interactions could grant whatever dread you put inside it (usually a leviathan when doing this) 3 extra shrouded hull points while still being able to shoot out of it. Then it could disembark, shoot and charge. (Just look up the 1d4chan 30k article and scroll down to the Leviathan's section where my initial thoughts on how a Levi with Cyclonic + drill + dreadpod had a decent chance of killing a knight titan are - very outdated these days though)

 

Its also why a lot of the lists back then either had minimum size and non-upgraded Tac Squads (outside of AA to tank) to fill troops or used a RoW to not have to take them at all.

 

 

+++

 

The real balancing act was making a fluffy, themed legion list that was also optimized to make it as strong as it could be.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Slips

[Brofist]

Man, SkimaskMohawk, I feel like our gaming communities have totally different ideas about what constitutes narrative gaming. Some of the harshest dumpsterings I've received came from fine-tuned dick kicking lists from beautifully painted and converted thematic armies.

[Noserenda]

heh, some of the worst, most awful waac players i ever had the displeasure of gaming against had absolutely beautiful armies, and this before the main FW kits were even available so every single models was extensively converted cogs in their munchkin machine :D 

Its as im typically trying to say, local scenes can be all kinds of focused/idiosyncratic but you absolutely cannot define a game by its players, all kinds of players play every game and its insanely rare for an individual player to fit into any kind of niche cleanly, or even stay in any one niche :P 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Not really my definition; just how the cookie seems to have crumbled over time. I fully agree that narrative lists and strong lists aren't mutually exclusive concepts, but I've seen so many discussion on units and their rules shut down by people saying that analysis doesn't matter because the game is narrative. Or wanting FAQ's is dumb because we can make our own rules because it's a narrative game. Or how new people should build lists like shared above.

[Mogsam]

I found the "don't alpha strike" statement odd. That 7 man suicide squad with meltas improved our meta to no end as it made taking something worthwhile a moot point. Instead, our armies were full of cheap and cheerful less effective units and it was much more enjoyable. Drop pod leviathans have dropped off as well because of the shift.

 

My armies are very much designed around making "poor" units work, so I appreciate the sentiment, but alot of "fluffy" narrative lists are way harder than the things targeted.

[Slips]

Thats the thing, though, isnt it? Nobody wants to have an army that falls flat on its face.

 

When starting out, its normal, due to a gap in knowledge that has yet to been filled, that the armies made will generally be on the weaker side of the power curve because the person in question doesn't know how to leverage the various rules interactions as well as just going "Oh that looks cool!" when taking a unit.

 

As that knowledgebase is built up, the list, naturally, starts becoming optimized as the player cuts what they know doesn't work for their purposes and starts adding in things they know can or want to try out a particular combo.

 

And as the players become more and more comfortable and their own local meta starts to crystalize as people cement the themes of their army and what they take, lists will naturally, as a result, become more and more powerful.

 

Players in a meta where theres 1-2 Iron Warriors playing Iron Fire lists is very different to one where its Maru Skara, Covenant of Fire or Recon Companies, for example.

 

Its basically the difference in taking: 

• 1x 20man tac squad with Bolter, BP & CS, Sarge with AA, Power Sword & Melta bombs + Apothecary
• 2x 10man squad, Sarge with AA and PF in a rhino

The first is: looks damn cool because "Wow, I can fury of the legion for 80 shots!? AND I have a huuuuuuge squad with feel no pain!"

The second is: realizing tac marines are only really good at capping objectives and staying alive and not as a damage dealing workhorse for the army.

 

Then, once you get to that point, you can actively start just taking whatever in your lists because you know what can/can't be done and/or want to experiment/have fun.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Slips

[Chaeron]

 

+++

 

The real balancing act was making a fluffy, themed legion list that was also optimized to make it as strong as it could be.

Long may that continue! I think it is that 'balance' that makes it feel like the ideal way to play (certainly, from a personal perspective).

[nordsturmking]

Thanks for all feedback guys:) how likely is it that custodes are not playable at the release of HH 2.0?

We don't know the release date right? I only saw rumors that the release will be some time in the summer.

 

And so GW nerfed 40k custodes pretty hard yesterday and SM have better armor than custodes i really don't see a point in playing custodes is 40k as almost everything that made them different from SM is pretty much gone now.

Ill start really looking deep into the leaks and the HH rules.

 

[Marshal Mittens]

June or July seem like the likely release dates, with June being most likely in a lot of folks minds as its probably getting shown off in May, and then 2-3 weeks to release.

 

I wonder if plasma guns from the MKiii and MKIV kits will fit the hands of the mk VI?

Edited April 15, 2022 by Marshall Mittens

[OttoVonAwesome]

June or July seem like the likely release dates, with June being most likely in a lot of folks minds as its probably getting shown off in May, and then 2-3 weeks to release.

 

I wonder if plasma guns from the MKiii and MKIV kits will fit the hands of the mk VI?

Both hands are molded the boltgun on the mark 6 same as intercesssors and new chaos so you'll have to source older left arms, 3d print or sculpt new left hands to cradle weapons made for earler kits.

[MARK0SIAN]

Thanks for all feedback guys:) how likely is it that custodes are not playable at the release of HH 2.0?

We don't know the release date right? I only saw rumors that the release will be some time in the summer.

 

And so GW nerfed 40k custodes pretty hard yesterday and SM have better armor than custodes i really don't see a point in playing custodes is 40k as almost everything that made them different from SM is pretty much gone now.

Ill start really looking deep into the leaks and the HH rules.

 

 

From what we’ve seen, even if Custodes aren’t in the initial launch wave, the new rules won’t differ enough to render their old rules completely invalid. It’s not looking like the kind of transition 40K had when it went from 7th to 8th edition.

 

There might be a few weird interactions and they’re unlikely to be well balanced (one way or the other) but I definitely think you’ll still be able to use them with their existing rules and a willing opponent.

 

One thing to bear in mind is that Custodes are one of FWs more popular ranges, they’re unlikely to leave them sitting on the shelf for long.

Edited April 15, 2022 by MARK0SIAN