New dataslate.

[KnightofSigismund]

So with the armor of contempt rule, is uphold still the auto take in everybody’s opinion? I think it gives us a shot experiment more and not feel like we are handicapping ourselves for not taking uphold. I’d like to hear what everybody’s opinion is after the dataslate.

[Marshal Arthur]

The mini-transhuman will still be worth it against some armies, and if you run crusader squads then the 5+ is still useful on the neophytes. I do think against some armies it might not be an auto-take anymore but for the most part I still see it being the standard vow.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I never thought Uphold was auto take, and won 5 out of 6 of my last games without it. It certainly isn't now, as they need to be rocking -4 ap to get benefit from the 5++. And especially since you can now claim cover and sit at effective 1+ saves for objective units.

[Medjugorje]

I never thought Uphold was auto take, and won 5 out of 6 of my last games without it. It certainly isn't now, as they need to be rocking -4 ap to get benefit from the 5++. And especially since you can now claim cover and sit at effective 1+ saves for objective units.

sorry if I am a but rude but how can anybody not see this vow not as autoinclude???

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

I never thought Uphold was auto take, and won 5 out of 6 of my last games without it. It certainly isn't now, as they need to be rocking -4 ap to get benefit from the 5++. And especially since you can now claim cover and sit at effective 1+ saves for objective units.

sorry if I am a but rude but how can anybody not see this vow not as autoinclude???

Because you do a cost-benefit analysis and compare it to the other options?

 

-Does my opponent have weapons that will trigger the 5++ very often?

-Does my opponent have many weapons that will often wound on 2+?

-To what ratio are those going to both apply to main units (crusader blobs, redemptors, assault termies, bgv, inceptors, eradicated, or whatever else)?

-Do I gain enough bonuses to offset no benefit from cover?

-Could I benefit more from another vow in this situation?

 

It's very context driven; what units you included, what army your opponent has, what their main damage profile looks like, and even how the terrain is laid out.

 

Again, I haven't played since tau, so I might be a couple of months out of touch, but saying auto-take just sounds very shallow to me.

[Medjugorje]

 

 

I never thought Uphold was auto take, and won 5 out of 6 of my last games without it. It certainly isn't now, as they need to be rocking -4 ap to get benefit from the 5++. And especially since you can now claim cover and sit at effective 1+ saves for objective units.

sorry if I am a but rude but how can anybody not see this vow not as autoinclude???

Because you do a cost-benefit analysis and compare it to the other options?

 

-Does my opponent have weapons that will trigger the 5++ very often? as usual -->always and most times on the most important weapons

( Custodes just have weapons with ap, GK in close combat are pure ap -3, Drukhari lances ar soo strong, ... i played so many games in 9th until start of this year and a 5++ is superiour to every other chapter tactic or doctrine)

-Does my opponent have many weapons that will often wound on 2+? --> minitranshuman is not that important as the 5++ BUT its so often viable against +1 to wound and because of ramshakkle and other rules there are sooo many S8 weapons out there

-To what ratio are those going to both apply to main units (crusader blobs, redemptors, assault termies, bgv, inceptors, eradicated, or whatever else)?-->except VV and BGV + most characters the 5++ is so important for all out main troops and vehicles like dreads, impulsors etc

-Do I gain enough bonuses to offset no benefit from cover? thats the only real reason I am on your side but consider that there are so many armies which ignore it. Especially Admech, Tau, ...

-Could I benefit more from another vow in this situation? NO. Thats the problem (not just because UTHOTE is so good but all others are REALLY BAD too

 

It's very context driven; what units you included, what army your opponent has, what their main damage profile looks like, and even how the terrain is laid out.

 

Again, I haven't played since tau, so I might be a couple of months out of touch, but saying auto-take just sounds very shallow to me.

 

[Medjugorje]

But as a whole - I think that the new rules make our army really good again. Especially because we take Crusadersquads and an additional AP ingore makes our VOW even better.

 

 

 

EDIT: I calculated a few things... I would say that the new rule makes our VOW not better. heck... now its just as bad as all other VOWS now.^^

Edited April 14, 2022 by Medjugorje

[Brother Kraskor]

I think this is the end of the Age of Uphold as an almost auto-take for sure!

 

Provided you can get our marines in cover, you'll only taking a worse save than the Uphold 5++ against AP-5! And in open ground you'll only take a worse save against AP-4. 

 

On the flipside, against anything weaker, you will be able to use cover to have a better save than if you took Uphold.

 

On top of this, against marines we desperately need Assault Doctrine always on if we want to fight before Turn 3. 

 

Personally I'm looking at adding some Eliminators - 2x Las Fusils for the regular guys, and the Sniper for the Sgt with Witchseeker bolts for maximum purge. 

[Palmu]

Don't mind Medju, Skimask. He sometimes forgets that some people can like different things than him. 

 

But this is that classic GW design/marketing strategy shining through - Release broken codex after broken codex, then when the older books get too weak, release a bandaid that rockets them back up for more sales. I might not like it, but I can appreciate the sheer economic artistry of it. 

 

But hey, I'll take it. I do like how, now Uphold is much more of a Vehicle-based Vow so it'll still have its place in lists without being the generally best choice. I wish that tournaments allowed you to pick the Vow at the start of a match though, instead of having to write it in ones armylist though, as that would make the selection actually shine. 

 

I'm quite happy about being able to pick up two units of Eliminators again, though. My Witch-hunting boys have been languishing for a while now. 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Palmu

[Medjugorje]

Don't mind Medju, Skimask. He sometimes forgets that some people can like different things than him. 

 

But this is that classic GW design/marketing strategy shining through - Release broken codex after broken codex, then when the older books get too weak, release a bandaid that rockets them back up for more sales. I might not like it, but I can appreciate the sheer economic artistry of it. 

 

But hey, I'll take it. I do like how, now Uphold is much more of a Vehicle-based Vow so it'll still have its place in lists without being the generally best choice. I wish that tournaments allowed you to pick the Vow at the start of a match though, instead of having to write it in ones armylist though, as that would make the selection actually shine. 

 

I'm quite happy about being able to pick up two units of Eliminators again, though. My Witch-hunting boys have been languishing for a while now. 

Its not about LIKING. Its just calculating things. And before the update ---> upside from fluff or fun reasons UPHOLD was clearly better then every other VOW by FAAAR.

 

AND Vows in tournaments work like you want them to be. Never heard of any tournament who handled it differently. Its just clear that all competitve players NEVER used another Vow because they are all TRASH.

 

I Think AAC can be good because of 3 rounds having assault + tactical doctrine for more AP against another astartes and because our survivability and stratagem to prevent other units from falling back and still gain the bonus attack. With Aurelian shroud we have still a good invul. My only Problem  is that the negative passion could have still too much impact.

 

What I like the most is that Sword brethren are way better then before.

[Medjugorje]

I think "my problem" is more my gaming club which have a lot of very very skillful players and my environment is very competitive. So without Uphold is very hard to play BT.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

 

I never thought Uphold was auto take, and won 5 out of 6 of my last games without it. It certainly isn't now, as they need to be rocking -4 ap to get benefit from the 5++. And especially since you can now claim cover and sit at effective 1+ saves for objective units.

sorry if I am a but rude but how can anybody not see this vow not as autoinclude???

Because you do a cost-benefit analysis and compare it to the other options?

 

-Does my opponent have weapons that will trigger the 5++ very often? as usual -->always and most times on the most important weapons

( Custodes just have weapons with ap, GK in close combat are pure ap -3, Drukhari lances ar soo strong, ... i played so many games in 9th until start of this year and a 5++ is superiour to every other chapter tactic or doctrine)

-Does my opponent have many weapons that will often wound on 2+? --> minitranshuman is not that important as the 5++ BUT its so often viable against +1 to wound and because of ramshakkle and other rules there are sooo many S8 weapons out there

-To what ratio are those going to both apply to main units (crusader blobs, redemptors, assault termies, bgv, inceptors, eradicated, or whatever else)?-->except VV and BGV + most characters the 5++ is so important for all out main troops and vehicles like dreads, impulsors etc

-Do I gain enough bonuses to offset no benefit from cover? thats the only real reason I am on your side but consider that there are so many armies which ignore it. Especially Admech, Tau, ...

-Could I benefit more from another vow in this situation? NO. Thats the problem (not just because UTHOTE is so good but all others are REALLY BAD too

 

It's very context driven; what units you included, what army your opponent has, what their main damage profile looks like, and even how the terrain is laid out.

 

Again, I haven't played since tau, so I might be a couple of months out of touch, but saying auto-take just sounds very shallow to me.

 

 

 

You missed where this was a rhetorical question to help you understand that there's many factors that can drive the decision to take other vows. Your own answers to those questions are valid, because they frame the context of your play experience. But it's not a declaration of fact, by any measure.

 

 

Its not about LIKING. Its just calculating things. And before the update ---> upside from fluff or fun reasons UPHOLD was clearly better then every other VOW by FAAAR.

 

AND Vows in tournaments work like you want them to be. Never heard of any tournament who handled it differently. Its just clear that all competitve players NEVER used another Vow because they are all TRASH.

 

I Think AAC can be good because of 3 rounds having assault + tactical doctrine for more AP against another astartes and because our survivability and stratagem to prevent other units from falling back and still gain the bonus attack. With Aurelian shroud we have still a good invul. My only Problem  is that the negative passion could have still too much impact.

 

What I like the most is that Sword brethren are way better then before.

 

 

I think "my problem" is more my gaming club which have a lot of very very skillful players and my environment is very competitive. So without Uphold is very hard to play BT.

 

Like these two posts right here say it all. Only your experience is valid; other players aren't competitive if they take options you don't like, because they don't play against skilled people like you do. Let's ignore the fact that you basically only say how much you lose when you play black templar, that you thought the army was dead because it lost a first turn charge gimmick for one unit, and that you couldn't understand how anyone won tournaments with them.

 

Maybe your problem is that you're just terrible at playing and building templar lists?

[Medjugorje]

again - its not about liking. Autotake means that its (close to) always better to take. And before the Dataslate IT WAS A FACT. Look to every single list that has won anything on tournaments. And even if you play in another area - In 99 percent of all fluff- or fun-games ( 100 percent of all I played so far) i struggled to take other vows although the LORE forced me to do it because Uphold was way too superior.

 

like KnightsofSigismund said - he always felt like he handicaped himself not to take Uphold. 

[Tokugawa]

Uphold is not good against opponent with few high S, high AP weapons.

 

But, if a list has few high S high AP, could it not be an unoptimal/weak list?

[Medjugorje]

Uphold is not good against opponent with few high S, high AP weapons.

 

But, if a list has few high S high AP, could it not be an unoptimal/weak list?

which army does not have that? Which list has not high ap weapons anymore? NON.

I mean if somebody wants to have a really bad list (not a fluff list - i mean a really bad list) then its the 1 percent i told before.

But heck... even the worst faction (astra militarum) has a huge amount of S8+ high AP weapons - if not as shooting then as close combat like Blood angels which wounds you most times on 2s normally so Minitranshuman was really great againt them.

 

Think about the last lists you played against and tell me there are no high S / AP weapons in there.

[SkimaskMohawk]

again - its not about liking. Autotake means that its (close to) always better to take. And before the Dataslate IT WAS A FACT. Look to every single list that has won anything on tournaments. And even if you play in another area - In 99 percent of all fluff- or fun-games ( 100 percent of all I played so far) i struggled to take other vows although the LORE forced me to do it because Uphold was way too superior.

 

like KnightsofSigismund said - he always felt like he handicaped himself not to take Uphold. 

 

But I didn't, and I played tournament, tournament prep, or TTS games. None of those were fluff games.

 

It was not always better to take Uphold in those games. The one game that it was, and I took it, I ironically lost.

[Medjugorje]

sorry to say but I dont believe you. On the one hand you THOUGHT it was competitve OR its a lie because you do not want the reality like it is.

Really. I doubt that 

[SkimaskMohawk]

sorry to say but I dont believe you. On the one hand you THOUGHT it was competitve OR its a lie because you do not want the reality like it is.

Really. I doubt that 

 

And with that, you're on the ignore list. 

 

The guy who lies constantly, accusing others of doing it....

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Uphold is not good against opponent with few high S, high AP weapons.

 

But, if a list has few high S high AP, could it not be an unoptimal/weak list?

Let’s look at top meta lists:

 

Custodes

Tau”va

Harlequins

Tyranids

 

Well they all rock high AP multi damage ranged weapons… so yeah good luck taking another vow. :rolleyes:

 

 

 

 

Maybe your problem is that you're just terrible at playing and building templar lists?

 

QFT - seriously for one to be so deeply entrenched in their own opinions exclusively it’s just annoying as heck.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

sorry to say but I dont believe you. On the one hand you THOUGHT it was competitve OR its a lie because you do not want the reality like it is.

Really. I doubt that 

 

And with that, you're on the ignore list. 

 

The guy who lies constantly, accusing others of doing it....

 

.

Totally agree with this assessment. It’s extremely childish and nonstop constant. I wish someone would do something about it…

Edited April 15, 2022 by Black Blow Fly

[Segismundo]

In my little xperience that 5++ was golden in a prefaq era. Dreads and scouts are alive thanks with that vow (autoinclude too for me). My drukhari player hate that vow.  

[Marshal Mattias]

=I=

 

Time out.

 

Have an opinion, make your case.

Accept disagreement.

Don't jump to personal attacks, or call each other liars.

 

This applies to *everyone* in this thread.

 

=I=