Balance Dataslate Q2 and sons

[Ahzek451]

Both exciting (and sorta just ok in the sense that all marines/sisters/grey knights get it as well), certainly not something to ignore for us. 

As clunky as it is to now have to factor in another modifier, this does help offset a lot of the AP increases 9th has introduced. Granted, we still live in a system with a lot of damage 2+ weapons ignoring All is dust, but coupled with the -1damage strat that we've been using, this only makes rubrics and scarabs tougher. Damage 1 weapons essentially ignore -2ap and -3ap in cover. Damage 2 with the strat does the same. 

And as far as I can tell...with it affecting heretic astartes keyword units this oddly affects spawn and mutaliths. But what stands out to me is vehicles. Granted we already have a 5++, all vehicles with a 2+ will enjoy this more often(sicarans, land raiders, etc.)

I don't expect miracles from this for us. I see this coupled with the marine 2.0 dex coming might see a resurgence of sisters and marines. But either way. Happy armor of contempt.

 

Mind, now our inferno guns are less special against other marines.   

Dang death guard terminators stole our OS from our scarabs. 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Ahzek451

[Brother Kraskor]

Yeah Scarabs in cover now are just nasty! Can definitely be putting Weaver on other things now. 

 

Cheeky DG terminators. 

[WarriorFish]

Indeed, this adds a nice bit of extra resilience against Damage 1 weapons and perhaps more importantly help against multiple damage weapons being a common enough thing. Though the 5++ does get a bit less valuable for it it's good news particularly as it helps vehicles too (though one could wonder why only Marine and Sister vehicles are more resistant to damage ).

 

It will be interesting to see how these changes pan out after they have bedded in and everyone has got experience of it. It might be small, but the nerf to indirect fire weapons is a win for Sons as an army without normal access to them - don't lose out if your score was zero already

[Ahzek451]

Plagueburst crawlers shooting at rubrics, for a 3+ save out of site...strat makes them 2+. Or scarab. 

[Paladin777]

Our special guns are still special against marines. We still inflict a saving throw penalty on them with every single shot from our basic guns, and that's nothing to sneeze at! How many other armies can boast such a thing!

[Malakithe]

Its kinda funny how this doesnt affect Tzaangors at all...yet another reason not to use them 

[WarriorFish]

Marine match ups are going to feel like the slugging matches of yesteryear but as noted Sons still get the advantage over their cousins even if it's not as much as before. This is intended to me more of a change to how Marines fight against other armies so we should probably look to these match ups for the bigger picture. There are a fair number of Damage 1 AP-1 guns around; now Rubrics are enjoying a 2+ against them too

 

Tzaangors are the big blue elephant in the room as Malakithe says, as they gain nothing (but lose out against Marines, albeit along with all other non-Marines) they are relatively a worse pick for it. Perhaps GW put out the Warpmeld list as a counter, but forgot that if it's not that great to begin with and Rubrics are getting better by comparison... Unfortunate as I was thinking about doing some Tzaangors next for my Sons but I will park that idea for now.

[Paladin777]

I think marines vs marines should be a slugfest. In lore they're supposed to be the tankiest troops in the galaxy, so why shouldn't they be on the tabletop too. This goes a long way toward making that happen.

 

As someone with a mere ten goatboys that aren't even primed, I can't say I'm all that bothered by the state of tzaangors. I can see why someone would be though.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Paladin777

[Brother Kraskor]

Just a thought here - how many other factions have an ability like our Implacable Guardians? As that circumvents the Bodyguard nerf. 

[Paladin777]

I don't know if any, but I think that it's still fine because it's triggered with a finite resource that has lots of competition.

[Brother Kraskor]

Yes but indirectly it is a huge boost to that ability if not many factions can do it. We can still have a mind-bullet psyker happily smiting away without being able to be shot at. Even funnier if you take the cult that lets him move when charged.

[Paladin777]

Please don't misunderstand; I agree that it's excellent and even more so now! I just think that it's also not anywhere near as overpowered as other units with the bodyguard rule were before the dataslate because of the finite nature of it. Edited April 16, 2022 by Paladin777

[Brother Kraskor]

Ah gotcha, yeah fair point, and we can only do it with one character at a time too. But we have a pretty reliable and CP-free way of generating CP (Cabal ritual) so I've always felt more CP liberal with TSons than my BT.

[Paladin777]

I think it's worth mentioning that the increased survivability to other MEQ factions' saves is an indirect buff to our MW spam.

 

I think it's also worth mentioning that against MEQ, Skealoch's Talon just got a whole lot better when compared to any of the other staff options... but spending the 5 points on a khopesh is still probably better for Exalted's, and the axe is probably better for termie sorcerers.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Paladin777

[Mushkilla]

Just a thought here - how many other factions have an ability like our Implacable Guardians? As that circumvents the Bodyguard nerf. 

 

Implacable Guardians got nerfed too - "This rule also applies to the following Stratagems that confer a Bodyguard ability to a unit: Implacable Guardians; Seer Council; Shield of Honour."

 

Which basically makes it useless for us. A shame as it was very useful.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Mushkilla

[Prot]

I have to admit I’m very confused on this. I thought anything with All is Dust would not get the benefit of this rule. 

[BrainFireBob]

Different effects. This nodifies AP, All is Dust improves save. Functionally the same, RAW different

[Xenith]

Yea, AiD triggers off the D stat of the weapon, AoC modifies the AP of incoming attacks. A Rube would get a 2+ save vs an AP-1 intercessor bolt rifle. Though maybe more importantly we get a 4+ armour save against Squig Mortars. 

[Brother Kraskor]

 

Just a thought here - how many other factions have an ability like our Implacable Guardians? As that circumvents the Bodyguard nerf. 

 

Implacable Guardians got nerfed too - "This rule also applies to the following Stratagems that confer a Bodyguard ability to a unit: Implacable Guardians; Seer Council; Shield of Honour."

 

Which basically makes it useless for us. A shame as it was very useful.

 

 

Ah! Damn so it is now an entirely useless strat pretty much. 

[Khornestar]

Always possible they’ll release a replacement strat for anything made redundant. Isn’t there a precedent for that sort of thing, at least from 8th into 9th codex releases? Maybe via Chapter Approved or balance slate.

[Naryn]

Having played a few games vs marines since this change, I have to say this really highlights for me how mediocre our AP-2 has been from the start. The only thing that really feels like it cuts through armor the way Inferno Bolts should is Soulreaper cannons now. I feel like a shift to AP-3 would be more in-line both with how Rubricae have played up to this point and more in-line with lore.

 

That being said, Armor of Contempt feels pretty insane on Rubric Marines. So I can't be salty about our defense ;)

[Malakithe]

Time to forego AP all together. Go haam on flamers and MWs

[Xenith]

Yea, Inferno bolts were always supposed to be able to punch straight through power armour - in 3rd ed I recall only Ahriman had them and they were AP2, then moved to AP3 in 4th ed when every rubric got them - still able to punch through marine armour. It's a big nerf against marines, but at least we still take things like aspect warriors to their invuln, and ignore gaunt saves etc...which is what bolters could do back in 3rd ed, actually. Oh well. This is bad. Haven't got a game in with the new rules, but will see if the defence against all armies is worth the loss of offense against marines. 

[Paladin777]

I think that was second Ed that Ahriman had AP2. In 3rd I thought they had a blast template and other characters could take them too. I might be thinking of 3rd and 4th Ed respectively though.

 

In other news, even though our bolters have take a nerf vs marines, our mind-bullets have certainly taken an indirect buff. Smites and other witch fires are even more valuable now than before.

[The Yncarne]

In other news, even though our bolters have take a nerf vs marines, our mind-bullets have certainly taken an indirect buff. Smites and other witch fires are even more valuable now than before.

 

Well, we have to rely on them more, but their availability or cost hasn't been changed. That's what I think some frater don't get. So more sorcerers are on the menu.