New to HH! Advice needed on Choosing a Legion

[Stevenw052]

Hey all!

 

I didn't see a thread specific to my questions, so hopefully I'm not spamming here. 

 

I've caught the HH bug and I'm looking to choose my legion. I play 40k, marines, sisters, and tau, and also play warmachine. I did play 40k back in 6th and 7th edition, but it's been a long time and I didn't play too much back then. 

 

For HH I know some leaks are out and I've seen some (but I haven't been able to find them all in one place, and also their not final yet so i take them with a grain of salt) so I hoping folks can talk to me about playstyle and lists comp a bit. 

 

I read the 1D4chan and Goonhammers articles but that didn't really narrow it down for me. 

 

I'm trying to choose legions that I 1) would like to paint 2) would like to play as/enjoy the fluff. I do plan to stay as lore appropriate as I can paint wise. 

 

Currently, I had bought these models for 40k but they're just primed black and not painted, 10 Cataphractii Terminators, 1 Sicaran Punisher, 1 Sicaran Omega, 5 MKII marines. But i also don't have a problem buying more models to fit whatever army I choose. 

 

I've narrowed it down to 6 and I could really use any of them. 

 

Currently in order of would like to paint:

 

1. Blood Angels  - Red is cool, and I tend to paint in the blue/cool spectrum 
2. Alpha Legion - hydra scales are cool/ metallic blue
3. Iron Hands - The FW scheme is actually cool as it's not just black 
4. Salamanders - Darker Green, but a good painter (not me) can do cool stuff with the fire effects
5. Dark Angels - Checkered patterns and some red 
6. Raven Guard - black paint

From what I've understood of rules and the Fluff/Lore I'd order my choices different, though there's not that big of a difference between my interest in their lore and i don't know if i fully understand the rules differences yet:

 

1. Raven Guard - Rules seems fun, Primarch seems cool, just painting all black is a bummer 
2. Blood Angels  - Rules seem good, though I see a lot of salt in the leaks thread, colors are fun
3. Salamanders - Kind of basic? but fire is fun, are slow? 
4. Iron Hands  -  More basic? Flesh is bad, robots are cool, also slow? But tanks
5. Dark Angels - I have no clue, rules seem convoluted, but cool models 
6. Alpha Legion - I am alpharius?

 

Honestly for folks that play these 6 legions I'd love to hear your thoughts! Maybe some raven guard players have a cool lore appropriate scheme they can post? I know the new showcased deliverers scheme is cool.

 

Maybe let me know why you chose one of the above? 

 

Thanks, I really appreciate it! 

 

 

[BitsHammer]

You could always pick the one that commits the most war crimes.

[Noserenda]

It sounds like you already eliminated a bunch of those really, if you dont want to paint them, you probably arent going to paint them. Id always advise that rules are temporary but the minis you spend significant amounts of time working on are potentially going to outlive the human race :D 

Either way it sounds like Blood Angels and Alpha Legion is what you are most enthusiastic about, flip a coin or think about whether you want to run Traitors or loyalists more, they have a few differences down the line, albeit mostly to do with allies and agents.

[Stevenw052]

It sounds like you already eliminated a bunch of those really, if you dont want to paint them, you probably arent going to paint them. Id always advise that rules are temporary but the minis you spend significant amounts of time working on are potentially going to outlive the human race  

 

Either way it sounds like Blood Angels and Alpha Legion is what you are most enthusiastic about, flip a coin or think about whether you want to run Traitors or loyalists more, they have a few differences down the line, albeit mostly to do with allies and agents.

 

Yeah, i think you're probably right, but i do also like the idea of Iron Hands or Salamanders and Raven Guard (i guess the shattered legions appeal to me). 

 

From initial glance Iron hands and Salamanders seem a bit one note? Like i'm tough and i'm going to come an get you? Are blood angels and raven guard more flexible? 

 

 

You could always pick the one that commits the most war crimes.

 

..or the least? lol 

Edited April 16, 2022 by Stevenw052

[infyrana]

Remember, painting black doesn't have to be simple - there are plenty of grim dark / weathered ways of painting black that gives it a lot more depth and intrigue :)

[Noserenda]

 

It sounds like you already eliminated a bunch of those really, if you dont want to paint them, you probably arent going to paint them. Id always advise that rules are temporary but the minis you spend significant amounts of time working on are potentially going to outlive the human race  

 

Either way it sounds like Blood Angels and Alpha Legion is what you are most enthusiastic about, flip a coin or think about whether you want to run Traitors or loyalists more, they have a few differences down the line, albeit mostly to do with allies and agents.

 

Yeah, i think you're probably right, but i do also like the idea of Iron Hands or Salamanders and Raven Guard (i guess the shattered legions appeal to me). 

 

From initial glance Iron hands and Salamanders seem a bit one note? Like i'm tough and i'm going to come an get you? Are blood angels and raven guard more flexible? 

 

 

 

Shattered legions could be an outlet, that way if you get bored with one colour scheme you can easily switch to another, even for the same Legion :) I havent seen anything about them in 2nd ed yet but im sure they will pop up.

 

Id definitely agree Sallies and Iron Hands are pretty boring in 1st ed, the Iron hands in playtest seem more intriguing but i cant even remember the Salamanders entry. The Blood Angels lists have long suffered from flanderisation but i ran a drop company with minimal jump packs and they worked just fine :)  Not sure about the Ravens as our resident 19th player hasnt really played much since not long after they got rules, which implies he didnt like them but he did have other stuff going on.

 

 

Remember, painting black doesn't have to be simple - there are plenty of grim dark / weathered ways of painting black that gives it a lot more depth and intrigue

How does one paint grimdarkly? Id have thought even a bucket of Agrax wouldnt show up too well on black :P 

[Stevenw052]

That's true, you can paint a darkblue black and then use chipping and oils to make it cool. 

 

 

 

 

 The Blood Angels lists have long suffered from flanderisation but i ran a drop company with minimal jump packs and they worked just fine

What does Flanderisation mean in this context? 

 

I think i want to be able to have some jump packs cause they're cool, but terminators are cool too, but so are tanks... lol. 

 

I do think it's either Blood Angels or Iron Hands. (but maybe dark angels cause they seem to be able to do all these things? though maybe not cause they have lots of filigree) 

 

edit: will check out some batreps too 

Edited April 16, 2022 by Stevenw052

[Marshal Mittens]

Dark angels, you can just do so many unique looks!

[Noserenda]

 

 

 

 The Blood Angels lists have long suffered from flanderisation but i ran a drop company with minimal jump packs and they worked just fine

What does Flanderisation mean in this context? 

 

I think i want to be able to have some jump packs cause they're cool, but terminators are cool too, but so are tanks... lol. 

 

 

Doing all the things is good! Its a potentially long winded subject about the flanderisation, but essentially there is a big thread of Blood Angels love jump packs through the current rules, but thats a post heresy development trying to emulate Sanguinius, (Or some other flaw psych stuff) in all the 30k books/fluff prior to that only the Sanquinary guard ever use jump packs even, which makes sense because they need to stay with the bossman.

 

Thats mostly a personal bugbear ofc, the current rules soft pushing big assault squads seems to be kinda gone in the playtest rules though so its easier to take what you like without feeling like a self nerf.

[Lautrec the Embraced]

Don't be discouraged only by the boredom of the typical main colour of the legion, of course if you absolutely hate painting black, then Raven guard is likely no good, but it's up too you what paint scheme you devise for them.

 

They are your guys, you give them whatever colours and backstory you want; many legions have certain detachments and companies painted in off colours, just the other day a new Raven guard terminator squad dropped who are surprisingly mostly red. If you so desire, your Raven guard could be painted half black, half <INSERT COLOUR 1> with gauntlets <INSERT COLOUR 2> because that's just how <INSERT COMPANY NUMBER> decreed after their victory/shame/betrayal/conniptions in the battle of <INSERT WHATEVER>.

Edited April 16, 2022 by Lautrec the Embraced

[LameBeard]

Welcome to the Heresy!

 

I agree with what’s been said before, don’t worry about rules too much, when we are on the cusp of change, but do think about general play style. For example, if you like tanks, maybe Iron Hands? If you like destroyers and jet bikes, maybe not Salamanders? But also see the thread on this forum called “playing your legion the ‘wrong’ way” - a Salamander jet bike company could be the cool twist you are looking for.

 

So I’d make my decision on 2 factors: colour scheme, and cost. On cost, it will be a while before the resin tanks, bikes etc get converted to plastic - so infantry-heavy will be a little cheaper. On colour scheme, I agree with Lautrec, but if you want to do it more ‘straight’ I think contrasting shoulders is really striking on the battlefield rather than just one colour.

 

So I’d go Salamanders or how I did my Alpha Legion: Metallic Blue with Black Shoulders. The metallic blue is a forgiving colour scheme compared with the difficulty of highlighting black.

 

But then who am I to advise you, because I am also painting Blood Angels and Dark Angels and World Eaters and have failed to get a decent force of any single one! So the main lesson is, any of these 6 would be awesome, just find the momentum!

[MARK0SIAN]

I play Blood Angels and have built up quite a sizeable legion of them. They’re cool to paint and, IMO, have some of the best looking legion specific units in the game which is what attracted me to them in the first place. They’re detailed but not that difficult to paint.

 

I also like Blood Angels because they’re quite flexible in terms of the force you can build. Their rules support both shooty and a choppy builds and work well with Jump Packs if you want to go down that route.

 

In terms of modelling, they look good in pretty much any armour mark. If you do want to go down a jump pack heavy route it can be a bit awkward for any legion as there is not a full plastic kit for a 30k assault squad. You can however use the 40K jump packs fine, or use the plastic sanguinary guard kit to get plastic MKiv jump packs. This has the added bonus of giving you lots of BA bling to use on your guys too.

Edited April 17, 2022 by MARK0SIAN

[Stevenw052]

Thanks all! I think it's probably down to IH or a blood Angels.

 

I'm going to check out that "wrong" way thread though.

 

Cause the art for blood angels, iron hands, and salamanders are cool lol.

[Stevenw052]

. But also see the thread on this forum called “playing your legion the ‘wrong’ way” - a Salamander jet bike company could be the cool twist you are looking for

Can't seem to find this thread

[LameBeard]

 

. But also see the thread on this forum called “playing your legion the ‘wrong’ way” - a Salamander jet bike company could be the cool twist you are looking for

Can't seem to find this thread

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358077-playing-your-legion-the-wrong-way/?do=findComment&comment=5378058

 

But retreading the thread a lot of it is about crafty RoW / rule interactions. There is still some stuff about imaginative twists on the fluff though.

Edited April 17, 2022 by LameBeard

[Stevenw052]

Thanks! I thinks it helpful to understand construction better too.

[Doctor Perils]

Have you got the option to paint up some test models in your chosen colours? It might give you an idea of which you process you prefer

[N1SB]

Hi Brother Steven, you're right to take your time in this process. I played the Xth/Iron Hands. I'm sharing my notes. I also believe everyone here raised the exact right points. I'm reflecting on the decisions I made about 6 or 7 years ago and it sounded a lot like what you're going through now. Things will be different now, or maybe not.

(Work-In-Progress shot from around that time)

+++ I got sick of painting dark power armour +++

At the time, I vowed to never dark black power armour again, which I soon broke by painting a Black Templar HQ and a Deathwatch Squad with different techniques.

Even with these Iron Hands, I was using a new spin, Tamiya Metallic Black which looked kinda like graphite. Then I played with it, like how I painted death's head skulls over the faceplates of the black Mk III armour. At the time, I thought it was really cool, but over time I realised even those gimmicks could only take it so far.

You mentioned FW's weird dark olive green colour scheme. That might be better, like a more military green. There are also other techniques now. Basecoat with a metallic silver, one thick coat of Black Templar Contrast paint, which didn't exist back then. I later started highlight with a Turquoise colour on black.

Hard Lesson Learned - I don't think the yardstick you use for decision is "how good can I paint black or dark green?" That might've been the mistake I made. The question I think I should've asked is, "how good will my black/dark green look compared to everyone else's colour schemes?" For the same time/effort/skill required for my black power armour, I probably could have done for red, and it might look even better...or worse, I don't know. I do think about it still.

+++ All-Vehicle armies actually need close combat support +++

This was the crazy thing I found. I faced an All-Vehicle army (except maybe 1 dude on foot) by my friend, Tourney Tony In Toronto. It was made via the Rites of War thing you're learning about now, all Predators that count as Troops for scoring purposes, plus some Dreadnoughts in support. I plan on doing something like this with Heresy 2.0. I asked people in this very forum about this list my friend used...and they replied that whoever was using that list against me is not my friend.

(Note - the guy didn't even use the Iron Hands Legion Tactic, he stayed true to his Legion, XIIIth Ultramarines.)

But I also think it's not really necessary to make them Iron Hands. Even with those presumably leaked new Heresy 2.0 (and that might not be the case, it's presumed after all), Iron Hands give them a sizeable It Will Not Die roll, for survivability. Here's the rub. The sheer number of never-tiring big guns you face is on a different scale.

Fun Story - so later I allied with Tourney Tony in a different 2 vs. 2 game. He's an aggressive player, planned an aggressive Deep Strike Into the Open list. I was like, "Whoa Tony, isn't that risky?" He was like, "What's our opponent going to do, bring 20 Lascannons?" The opponent brought 20 Lascannons. Tony went, "Welp...$#!#." 20 Lascannons is wasteful overkill in a 40k game. In 30k, the guy was running a narrative, themed, fluffy Imperial Fists list...they're siege breakers, of course they'll have 20 Lascannons. And it's not just them, there's just a lot more nuclear options in 30k. Wait until you face a Mechanicum Ordinatus Ulinator.

The lethality of the game we played meant that It Will Not Die roll, which happens in the end of the turn for a damaged Vehicle, wouldn't have come up. It's like the craziest Shrodinger's Cat experiment ever, Predators were either Alive or Dead, a binary state, there's no such thing as hurt because you'd already be Dead.

The MVP of this All-Predators army turned out to be: close combat Dreadnoughts. The Preds needed someone to peel off/intercept all these Infantry rushing into melee range, hence the Dreads. Maybe could've been Terminators instead. But my thought was, maybe instead of added survivability, an All-Preds list might...ironically...benefit more from a melee-oriented Legion Tactic instead. I don't know.

Observations Made - so while an All-Predators army would've benefited from the Iron Hands Legion Tactic, it could also have benefited just as much from a melee-oriented one, ironically. Optimisation or complimentation? I dunno, but I do believe 30k is a lot less cookie cutter than 40k.

+++ There's an All-Terminator Rite of War, too +++

There's an All-Terminator Rite of War, too. And by All, I actually mean those are just the requirements, you probably could add a few Tanks and a few HQ somewhere. Those 5 Mark II you have could be used as HQ units or Apothecaries to support Terminators. Sicarions are always good. Lots of options in this game.

+++ I started with Iron Hands, but I didn't end there +++

Here's the weird part. I started with Iron Hands, with a little Mechanicum allied detachment both for variety and for narrative purposes (even transhuman flesh is weak).

Gradually, I became a mainly Mechanicum army with some Iron Hands allies. I never expected it. Tourney Tony put it best, "Your true home isn't Medusa, it's Mars."

Observations Made - my Heresy journey took an unexpected turn. Turned out to be a better path for me. Yours might as well. Maybe the army isn't a goal but a road.

[Stevenw052]

Amazingly helpful N1SB!!

 

And perils I def have some models I am going to test paint up as each of the 3 current legions of thinking about. I'm trying to paint close to the art from the black books so it's going to be fun!!

[N1SB]

The way Legionnaires were depicted in the Black Books was exactly what I was going for, that little metallic sheen.

 

You're testing models now and I was remembering we didn't have all these plastic older Marks before.  Marks III, IV, VI, all in plastic (yes, VI you still find in 40k boxes, like a third of any given Firstborn squad are Beakies, but now we can get all VIs).  For whatever reason, we tended not to mix them in the same army, maybe just to make it separate from 40k, maybe to follow the HH novel series' covers where everyone would show up in the same Mark.

 

So here's an idea I'm sure others have considered, but I'd definitely try now myself: same Legion, same army, different Marks for different tasks.  Like Mk III are especially armoured at the front; maybe I'd use them for a Heavy Weapons squad in the back.  Mk VI was especially light, that's exactly why the Raven Guard was test-driving it, why it's named the Corvus pattern, so maybe I'd give the Assault Squad that.  Same colour scheme, but something to break the monotony.

 

It's just something that, for a number of perfectly good reasons, people didn't want to mix Marks in a 30k army.  I'd actually do it now, but for different types of units.

[Stevenw052]

Yeah I'm def mixing marks of armor. For different tasks would be cool!

 

I'll get some test models up and think on it more.

[9x19 Parabellum]

So question, as I'd like to get into Horus Heresy when it  comes out...my Iron Hands 40k army is all baby marines...can I use my tacticals and other models as HH tactical marines?

[SkimaskMohawk]

So question, as I'd like to get into Horus Heresy when it comes out...my Iron Hands 40k army is all baby marines...can I use my tacticals and other models as HH tactical marines?

You can use any combination of the traditional scale and the new scale that you can put up with on personal level. A lot of new people will use the new models as it's probably going to be a good point of entry, but no one has to throw out their old stuff and re-buy the new. Just make sure the equipment is correct and your good to go.

[Varyn]

So question, as I'd like to get into Horus Heresy when it  comes out...my Iron Hands 40k army is all baby marines...can I use my tacticals and other models as HH tactical marines?

 

Skimaskmohawk hit the nail on the head; you can most likely use quite a few of your units, just try and make it clear what everything is so your opponent isn't having to query units and wargear. If you enjoy the game and setting you can add some heresy specific models to your collection, if you don't fancy buying the whole new 'starter' box, you will be able to pick up the bits you want on ebay (Spartan, contemptor, cataphractii terminators etc).

[9x19 Parabellum]

Awesome.  A few more questions then;

 

do the 40k weapons map over to their HH equivalents?

So like...does a Predator in 40k, armed with lascannons/heavy bolters/autocannons have a HH equivalent?
Are there terminators in HH armed with Storm Bolter (or combi-bolter) and power fists?

etc, etc