CSM with 3 A - what does that mean for us

[WrathOfTheLion]

I think they just plan on deleting shock assault and adding the attack across the board. That would bump standard intercessors and all up to what, 3 attacks base? That's what I'd expect.

 

I do not think they'll get a further attack 'for free' like CSM Legionaries did and go up to 4 attacks base. They may normalize up tactical marines, or especially assault marines to get 3 attacks base as well though.

[Medjugorje]

it would be not that big difference to be honest. 

[CCE1981]

I am good with Tactical Marines going yo base 2 attacks, and Primaris base 3. Few combats last longer than a single turn, it is one less rule, and it differentiates the units.

[Medjugorje]

I am good with Tactical Marines going yo base 2 attacks, and Primaris base 3. Few combats last longer than a single turn, it is one less rule, and it differentiates the units.

and it would make AAC for BT worth it.

[Djangomatic82]

This would be a great opportunity to normalize the number of attacks for SM. Just make it 3 for basic SM infantry across the board, +1 for vets, regardless of Loyalist/Chaos or First Born/Primaris divides.

[Brother Kraskor]

 

I am good with Tactical Marines going yo base 2 attacks, and Primaris base 3. Few combats last longer than a single turn, it is one less rule, and it differentiates the units.

and it would make AAC for BT worth it.

 

 

It would make it OP. Consider Dreads with 5A base instead of 4A + Shock Assault. Take AAC, and a MoF with the Honour Vehment and Warden of the Ancients - Dreads with 8 attacks each! 3x Redemptors, 3x Ironclad, and Grimaldus giving 6+++ and full re-rolls to hit...

[CCE1981]

This is an intended move that would remove shock assault

[Medjugorje]

 

 

I am good with Tactical Marines going yo base 2 attacks, and Primaris base 3. Few combats last longer than a single turn, it is one less rule, and it differentiates the units.

and it would make AAC for BT worth it.

 

 

It would make it OP. Consider Dreads with 5A base instead of 4A + Shock Assault. Take AAC, and a MoF with the Honour Vehment and Warden of the Ancients - Dreads with 8 attacks each! 3x Redemptors, 3x Ironclad, and Grimaldus giving 6+++ and full re-rolls to hit...

 

It would just be an additional attack in the first round in comparison to now. Blood Angels have much better close combat rules AND their bonus attack in their doctrine and they are horrible on the table now.

 

 

And the BT vows are trash because they have extremly strong weakness. An additional attack is not that big as you think.

 

Btw Ironclads are really really bad - even with 10 attacks they are not wort it.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Medjugorje

[Brother Kraskor]

 

 

 

I am good with Tactical Marines going yo base 2 attacks, and Primaris base 3. Few combats last longer than a single turn, it is one less rule, and it differentiates the units.

and it would make AAC for BT worth it.

 

 

It would make it OP. Consider Dreads with 5A base instead of 4A + Shock Assault. Take AAC, and a MoF with the Honour Vehment and Warden of the Ancients - Dreads with 8 attacks each! 3x Redemptors, 3x Ironclad, and Grimaldus giving 6+++ and full re-rolls to hit...

 

It would just be an additional attack in the first round in comparison to now. Blood Angels have much better close combat rules AND their bonus attack in their doctrine and they are horrible on the table now.

 

 

And the BT vows are trash because they have extremly strong weakness. An additional attack is not that big as you think.

 

Btw Ironclads are really really bad - even with 10 attacks they are not wort it.

 

 

The Ironclad was just an example (and are they that bad? T8, 140pts with Hurricane bolter for screen clearance, hits like a truck!), any flavour of dread to taste. But what I don't get is where you're saying it being just an additional attack in the first round? Shock Assault is an additional attack in the first round and is not cumulative with Honour Vehement or AAC, if we removed Shock Assault and added +1A then it is cumulative and not just for the first round. I don't think 8-attack dreads can be sniffed at when they are packing S12 and high Damage!

[Medjugorje]

if he reach combat. I put him into a few games and he never was worth the points. Even against our newer members in the club + fungames; ...

 

He is too slow and with a few rerolls he is really not that tough. And if you play another vehicles like Redemptors in addition the opponent will try to kill the redemptors and when he is able to --> your melee bot is dead too. If your opponent fails to kill the redemptors - they will be doing still deal more damage as crippled as they are.

Ironclad should have 2+ save and 9 wounds + 6fnp  and still have to be cheaper by that characteristic. I love this dread but its really bad on the table

[Subtleknife]

I really hope that GW reset everything in 10th. Chaos getting an extra attack....sure. Marines losing shock assault and getting 2 attack sure. However it has a knock on effect. Do primaris now go to 3. If Chaos and Primaris are getting 3 attacks base now custodes should really get an extra attack as they are supposed to be better than both in combat.

[Blindhamster]

I really hope that GW reset everything in 10th. Chaos getting an extra attack....sure. Marines losing shock assault and getting 2 attack sure. However it has a knock on effect. Do primaris now go to 3. If Chaos and Primaris are getting 3 attacks base now custodes should really get an extra attack as they are supposed to be better than both in combat.

Maybe the next book will have marines be marines, with there being no rule difference between primaris and firstborn, or perhaps the difference will purely be a few stratagems. Custodes will still have more wounds, better saves, better weapon skill, better weapons, better strength and better toughness. They’ll be fine

[Medjugorje]

 

I really hope that GW reset everything in 10th. Chaos getting an extra attack....sure. Marines losing shock assault and getting 2 attack sure. However it has a knock on effect. Do primaris now go to 3. If Chaos and Primaris are getting 3 attacks base now custodes should really get an extra attack as they are supposed to be better than both in combat.

Maybe the next book will have marines be marines, with there being no rule difference between primaris and firstborn, or perhaps the difference will purely be a few stratagems. Custodes will still have more wounds, better saves, better weapon skill, better weapons, better strength and better toughness. They’ll be fine

 

 

I dont think this will be. Think about the whole lore ... the firstborn only players... 

 

Valrak has more rumors. But he dont want to tell.

[Blindhamster]

if primaris and firstborn had the same stats, surely firstborn players would be happy as it'd mean a flat upgrade for them? I'm not suggesting the next book could drop anything firstborn. Just that I wouldn't be especially surprised for them to make primaris just a keyword which triggers a few unique stratagems. As a primaris only player it's me that would be a little jilted by it. Doesn't mean it couldn't happen.

[phandaal]

if primaris and firstborn had the same stats, surely firstborn players would be happy as it'd mean a flat upgrade for them? I'm not suggesting the next book could drop anything firstborn. Just that I wouldn't be especially surprised for them to make primaris just a keyword which triggers a few unique stratagems. As a primaris only player it's me that would be a little jilted by it. Doesn't mean it couldn't happen.

 

Vanilla Marines could get by with access to Transhuman Physiology. The extra attack would be nice, but not dying is much more useful.

[Blindhamster]

 

if primaris and firstborn had the same stats, surely firstborn players would be happy as it'd mean a flat upgrade for them? I'm not suggesting the next book could drop anything firstborn. Just that I wouldn't be especially surprised for them to make primaris just a keyword which triggers a few unique stratagems. As a primaris only player it's me that would be a little jilted by it. Doesn't mean it couldn't happen.

 

Vanilla Marines could get by with access to Transhuman Physiology. The extra attack would be nice, but not dying is much more useful.

 

honestly i hope that stays primaris - or they find a new way to represent the furnace.

[phandaal]

 

 

if primaris and firstborn had the same stats, surely firstborn players would be happy as it'd mean a flat upgrade for them? I'm not suggesting the next book could drop anything firstborn. Just that I wouldn't be especially surprised for them to make primaris just a keyword which triggers a few unique stratagems. As a primaris only player it's me that would be a little jilted by it. Doesn't mean it couldn't happen.

 

Vanilla Marines could get by with access to Transhuman Physiology. The extra attack would be nice, but not dying is much more useful.

 

honestly i hope that stays primaris - or they find a new way to represent the furnace.

 

 

Really it would only be needed because the game is so lethal now. Primaris would fall over in a stiff breeze too without Transhuman.

 

Maybe non-Primaris get a FNP to represent them being old, grizzled, and too stubborn to die. Primaris keep Transhuman for themselves.

 

Just spitballing. At some point there will need to be a modicum of parity if the plan is not to just ditch everything besides Primaris.

[Kallas]

if primaris and firstborn had the same stats, surely firstborn players would be happy as it'd mean a flat upgrade for them? I'm not suggesting the next book could drop anything firstborn. Just that I wouldn't be especially surprised for them to make primaris just a keyword which triggers a few unique stratagems. As a primaris only player it's me that would be a little jilted by it. Doesn't mean it couldn't happen.

 

I mean, as a very much pro-Firstborn player, the mere introduction of Primaris is kind of jilting, especially considering that GW has very clearly shifted to be purely Primaris. Only Primaris get (actual significant) releases (ie, more than just a random Firstborn in the Heroes series, or an occasional, limited run character model) - original Firstborn characters are becoming Primaris and rules are creeping to be pro-Primaris (eg, Transhuman Physiology being any Marine, and now only Primaris).

 

But that conversation has been done to death. I'd kind of prefer GW to just role Firstborn units and Primaris units into the same datasheets and just be done with it. Let Firstborn players use their models without falling behind in rules, and give Primaris players greater freedom with unit roles and such without having to tiptoe around the Firstborn unit roles to avoid another Age of Sigmar end-of-universe debacle.

[Slave to Darkness]

I play both Ultramarines and Chaos. Imperial side has all the good shooting, let's give Chaos something they can do better than their Imperial brethren.

I certainly hope they don't bump up the attacks for Tacs or Primaris.

Primaris dont need the boost, CSM's are just getting what we are owed so we can actually stand a chance. 

[Slave to Darkness]

 

 

But that conversation has been done to death. I'd kind of prefer GW to just role Firstborn units and Primaris units into the same datasheets and just be done with it. Let Firstborn players use their models without falling behind in rules, and give Primaris players greater freedom with unit roles and such without having to tiptoe around the Firstborn unit roles to avoid another Age of Sigmar end-of-universe debacle.

 

Id be cool with that, then I dont have to put up with people telling me I need Primaris marines in my army all the time, and the local GW manager may actually stop trynna sell me them when I have told her many times already I am not interested. Or I could just move to a town with a decent GW manager.

Edited April 23, 2022 by Slave to Darkness

[Helias_Tancred]

I kind of hope that Chaos get the extra attack, while we Loyalists just keep Shock Assault. I know it seems strange; but between the fact that most Chaos Marines are in fact closer to veterans, and that the Codex Astartes encourages all Marine Chapters to engage in very fast-paced, focussed warfare, I think it makes a fair amount of sense.

 

This guy ^

[Grand_Master_Alpharius]

I kind of hope that Chaos get the extra attack, while we Loyalists just keep Shock Assault. I know it seems strange; but between the fact that most Chaos Marines are in fact closer to veterans, and that the Codex Astartes encourages all Marine Chapters to engage in very fast-paced, focussed warfare, I think it makes a fair amount of sense.

I support this idea 100%! Chaos legionaires being hyped up by warp shenanigans giving them extra rage all the time makes perfect sense. Meanwhile, their more supposedly level headed cousin's shock assault mechanic just feels so perfect and also makes so much sense, why mess with it! 

[Grand_Master_Alpharius]

 

I really hope that GW reset everything in 10th. Chaos getting an extra attack....sure. Marines losing shock assault and getting 2 attack sure. However it has a knock on effect. Do primaris now go to 3. If Chaos and Primaris are getting 3 attacks base now custodes should really get an extra attack as they are supposed to be better than both in combat.

Maybe the next book will have marines be marines, with there being no rule difference between primaris and firstborn, or perhaps the difference will purely be a few stratagems. Custodes will still have more wounds, better saves, better weapon skill, better weapons, better strength and better toughness. They’ll be fine

 

Perfect reponse mate.

 

I mean, just because one faction gets something, why do people think that everyone else should get something similar or the same? I mean, what even would be the point of having a different army then? We'd all just be playing the same thing.

[Slave to Darkness]

 

 

I really hope that GW reset everything in 10th. Chaos getting an extra attack....sure. Marines losing shock assault and getting 2 attack sure. However it has a knock on effect. Do primaris now go to 3. If Chaos and Primaris are getting 3 attacks base now custodes should really get an extra attack as they are supposed to be better than both in combat.

Maybe the next book will have marines be marines, with there being no rule difference between primaris and firstborn, or perhaps the difference will purely be a few stratagems. Custodes will still have more wounds, better saves, better weapon skill, better weapons, better strength and better toughness. They’ll be fine

 

Perfect reponse mate.

 

I mean, just because one faction gets something, why do people think that everyone else should get something similar or the same? I mean, what even would be the point of having a different army then? We'd all just be playing the same thing.

 

^^ This... 

 

As for Subtles comment about Custodes, in the First Heretic one of the Word Bearers was watching Custodes fight, unlike marines they dont fight as a unit paying attention to where every one else is stood around him etc, they were just focussed on who they were fighting at the time, where marines fight as a 'pack' so to speak. The Word Bearers took them down easily because of that. Custodes dont need an extra attack just because CSM's got it, Custodes are not marines. If they lag behind because of it then tweak something else to make up for it but they dont need everything marines have. 

[Jings]

 

 

 

I really hope that GW reset everything in 10th. Chaos getting an extra attack....sure. Marines losing shock assault and getting 2 attack sure. However it has a knock on effect. Do primaris now go to 3. If Chaos and Primaris are getting 3 attacks base now custodes should really get an extra attack as they are supposed to be better than both in combat.

Maybe the next book will have marines be marines, with there being no rule difference between primaris and firstborn, or perhaps the difference will purely be a few stratagems. Custodes will still have more wounds, better saves, better weapon skill, better weapons, better strength and better toughness. They’ll be fine

 

Perfect reponse mate.

 

I mean, just because one faction gets something, why do people think that everyone else should get something similar or the same? I mean, what even would be the point of having a different army then? We'd all just be playing the same thing.

 

^^ This... 

 

As for Subtles comment about Custodes, in the First Heretic one of the Word Bearers was watching Custodes fight, unlike marines they dont fight as a unit paying attention to where every one else is stood around him etc, they were just focussed on who they were fighting at the time, where marines fight as a 'pack' so to speak. The Word Bearers took them down easily because of that. Custodes dont need an extra attack just because CSM's got it, Custodes are not marines. If they lag behind because of it then tweak something else to make up for it but they dont need everything marines have. 

 

 

I don't think it would be necessarily unfair to bump Custodes up an extra attack for the sake of granularity, but the quality of their wargear also ensure that baseline Custodes are superior in melee than baseline Astartes.