CSM with 3 A - what does that mean for us

[Kallas]

I mean, just because one faction gets something, why do people think that everyone else should get something similar or the same? I mean, what even would be the point of having a different army then? We'd all just be playing the same thing.

 

2A Loyalist Marines wouldn't be the same as 3A Heretic Marines though..?

So they wouldn't be the same thing. 

 

Getting rid of Shock Assault would just be good streamlining - how often do Marines not benefit from Shock Assault in the first place? Fights are over in the first round almost every time anyway, so bumping statlines up and removing extraneous rules just simplifies things with a functionally extremely similar result.

[Mike8404]

I really hope that GW reset everything in 10th. Chaos getting an extra attack....sure. Marines losing shock assault and getting 2 attack sure. However it has a knock on effect. Do primaris now go to 3. If Chaos and Primaris are getting 3 attacks base now custodes should really get an extra attack as they are supposed to be better than both in combat.

I don't necessarily agree with bumping Custodes up every time Marines get a little buff (the Custodes 9th edition dex is proof). Custodes are why there's power creep in the game right now, I get they're supposed to be stronger than Marines, but on the table top, for balance's sake, they should share some stats with Marines. Otherwise the Imperial Power Creep will never end.

 

Alternatively, Custodes could go back to 30k where they balance better and Sisters aren't around to cause balancing issues either.

 

Also, Loyalist Marines should get better shooting so there's a better contrast between them and CSM. GW is trying ti get away from the "CSM are loyalists with a spike fetish" and its refreshing to see

[phandaal]

Custodes definitely take up some of the design space that Marines should occupy. Super soldiers who can turn the tide of a planet-wide battle with half a squad, account for hundreds of enemy casualties on their own, and so on.

[Medjugorje]

 

I mean, just because one faction gets something, why do people think that everyone else should get something similar or the same? I mean, what even would be the point of having a different army then? We'd all just be playing the same thing.

 

2A Loyalist Marines wouldn't be the same as 3A Heretic Marines though..?

So they wouldn't be the same thing. 

 

Getting rid of Shock Assault would just be good streamlining - how often do Marines not benefit from Shock Assault in the first place? Fights are over in the first round almost every time anyway, so bumping statlines up and removing extraneous rules just simplifies things with a functionally extremely similar result.

 

THIS

 

 

I really hope that GW reset everything in 10th. Chaos getting an extra attack....sure. Marines losing shock assault and getting 2 attack sure. However it has a knock on effect. Do primaris now go to 3. If Chaos and Primaris are getting 3 attacks base now custodes should really get an extra attack as they are supposed to be better than both in combat.

I don't necessarily agree with bumping Custodes up every time Marines get a little buff (the Custodes 9th edition dex is proof). Custodes are why there's power creep in the game right now, I get they're supposed to be stronger than Marines, but on the table top, for balance's sake, they should share some stats with Marines. Otherwise the Imperial Power Creep will never end.

 

Alternatively, Custodes could go back to 30k where they balance better and Sisters aren't around to cause balancing issues either.

 

Also, Loyalist Marines should get better shooting so there's a better contrast between them and CSM. GW is trying ti get away from the "CSM are loyalists with a spike fetish" and its refreshing to see

 

problem here: 30k IS NOT balanced but most people who play it does not play competitive

Edited April 24, 2022 by Medjugorje

[Mike8404]

 

 

 

 

I mean, just because one faction gets something, why do people think that everyone else should get something similar or the same? I mean, what even would be the point of having a different army then? We'd all just be playing the same thing.

2A Loyalist Marines wouldn't be the same as 3A Heretic Marines though..?

So they wouldn't be the same thing.

 

Getting rid of Shock Assault would just be good streamlining - how often do Marines not benefit from Shock Assault in the first place? Fights are over in the first round almost every time anyway, so bumping statlines up and removing extraneous rules just simplifies things with a functionally extremely similar result.

THIS

 

I really hope that GW reset everything in 10th. Chaos getting an extra attack....sure. Marines losing shock assault and getting 2 attack sure. However it has a knock on effect. Do primaris now go to 3. If Chaos and Primaris are getting 3 attacks base now custodes should really get an extra attack as they are supposed to be better than both in combat.

I don't necessarily agree with bumping Custodes up every time Marines get a little buff (the Custodes 9th edition dex is proof). Custodes are why there's power creep in the game right now, I get they're supposed to be stronger than Marines, but on the table top, for balance's sake, they should share some stats with Marines. Otherwise the Imperial Power Creep will never end.

 

Alternatively, Custodes could go back to 30k where they balance better and Sisters aren't around to cause balancing issues either.

 

Also, Loyalist Marines should get better shooting so there's a better contrast between them and CSM. GW is trying ti get away from the "CSM are loyalists with a spike fetish" and its refreshing to see

problem here: 30k IS NOT balanced but most people who play it does not play competitive

Well no, 30k isn't balanced. I agree wholeheartedly there. But 30k doesn't have SoB. So Marines fill that niche in 30k. The problem in 40k is SoB do what Marines used to do and Custodes do what GW is trying to make Marines do. Custodes fit the profile of how Marines across the board should play, CSM included. Instead Marines are rules handicapped because Custodes limit their power, unnecessarily.

 

So I feel like GW should remove Custodes from 40k entirely and give Primaris Marines and CSM their role in the meta. It would give CSM the boost they need to compete with Loyalist Marines being a few extra attacks, and would make Primaris feel like something more than they are now, discount Custodes.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Mike8404

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

That might upset some people who spent their money on Custodes to play 40K .

[Medjugorje]

I really get your point but we alreade more melee focused  as they are and White Scars should not be that good in close combat --> Mongolian hordes used to be strong in close range with their horses by shooting arrows. A bit the same problem what you have with Custodes vs Marines^^)

 

y have 10 chapters which all are very different and they all fit in the game. 

( Although I think that BT should b

But it could be made without deleating a whole faction. Marines with AoC are close to that in my opinion.

 

In comparison:

Custodes vs Marine -> +1 Wound, Save (at least in the statline), thoughness, weapon skill and ballistic skill in combiantion with better weapons

Marine vs Guard -> +1 Wound, +2 Save (and additional rule), toughness, weapon skill and balistic skill in combination with better weapons.

 

 I knew back then when Marines used to be superior to Custodes - then were close to equal.

Nowadays they gone a bit too far in the lore and of course also in the game - but (at least for me) its not that bad.

[Captain Idaho]

I've been thinking on this and it feels kinda odd really. Against Marines and Chaos Marines (as well as indeed Adepta Sororitas) we have Primaris performing literally the same as Chaos Marines, except for a slightly longer ranged Bolter and actually losing an attack after the 1st round of a combat.

 

So Primaris are literally inferior to Chaos Marines in a vs situation, which begs the question of the lore being broken somewhat, or else we're going to see a buff for Primaris that they don't really need balance wise.

 

It's confusing what is going on here, with Armour of Contempt and the extra wound and attack for Chaos Marines.

 

Honestly, perhaps GW needs to just drop Primaris as a difference to ordinary Marines, except outside perhaps Strategums.. It's getting messier and messier and the arms race for Codex Creep hurts my brain - what's next, 4 attack Primaris Intercessors, leading to 6 attack World Eaters, 6 Attacks Custodes, 8 attack Genestealers... let's draw the line here eh. Chaos Marines are supposed to be fierce due to their renegade status and desperate circumstances.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Captain Idaho

[phandaal]

Honestly, perhaps GW needs to just drop Primaris as a difference to ordinary Marines, except outside perhaps Strategums.. It's getting messier and messier and the arms race for Codex Creep hurts my brain - what's next, 4 attack Primaris Intercessors, leading to 6 attack World Eaters, 6 Attacks Custodes, 8 attack Genestealers... let's draw the line here eh. Chaos Marines are supposed to be fierce due to their renegade status and desperate circumstances.

 

Agreed. CSM are Space Marines who have managed to survive thousands of years of warfare while living in Space Hell. That should mean something.

[Kallas]

Agreed. CSM are Space Marines who have managed to survive thousands of years of warfare while living in Space Hell. That should mean something.

 

Well, they are and they aren't. It's been part of it for ages that being in the Eye of Terror involves severe time shenanigans: a CSM who just turned traitor might fight enemies that aren't born until hundreds of years later, and then could, next week, fight enemies from before they turned.

 

Heresy-era Heretic Marines aren't necessarily fighting for literally ten thousand years, to them they could have been fighting for weeks, or days; time can be meaningless, or they could experience all of it. That's kind of the problem with the Warp in general.

 

As for Loyalists being worse, ok. What about the Renegades that have just turned? Do they become equals to the ten thousand year old veterans? If we're talking about gameplay, why are Loyalist Marines suddenly just straight up worse versions of CSM (the ones without massive Chaos empowerment)?

 

CSM being 3A vs (the hypothetical) 2A of Loyalists is pretty reasonable; but let's not forget the roots of it. The additional power of Chaos is not just "everything is more powerful!" or else, yeah, they would be. CSM can gain favour and increase in power (eg, the old 3E Chaos book with those various bonuses) but they're not by default just better.

[Medjugorje]

 

Honestly, perhaps GW needs to just drop Primaris as a difference to ordinary Marines, except outside perhaps Strategums.. It's getting messier and messier and the arms race for Codex Creep hurts my brain - what's next, 4 attack Primaris Intercessors, leading to 6 attack World Eaters, 6 Attacks Custodes, 8 attack Genestealers... let's draw the line here eh. Chaos Marines are supposed to be fierce due to their renegade status and desperate circumstances.

 

Agreed. CSM are Space Marines who have managed to survive thousands of years of warfare while living in Space Hell. That should mean something.

 

Lots of them are not older then normal Marines which live their whole time in wars. Time in Warp is different. And additional there are a lot of CSM who are not from the Horus Heresy. 

I ve heard that most CSM are former loyal Marines which switched side AFTER the Horus Heresy.

[Captain Idaho]

The extra attack simulates the overall vicious savagery necessitated by being a renegade to the Imperium. Doesn't matter if not all Chaos Marines are thousands of years old, the ones who survived going traitor are operating either in the Eye of Terror or in circumstances that are bleak and desperate (supplies and survival). The survivors who prosper are going to have an overall meaner streak than those of their brothers who didn't survive turning traitor.

 

So it makes sense for Chaos Marines to have the extra attack. Remember the game is abstract in many ways and we can't have rules for each squad member to differentiate fighting prowas and affinity. Sure some loyalist Marines are likely fiercer than their brethren, but these variables are better suited to a squad level game.

[phandaal]

 

Agreed. CSM are Space Marines who have managed to survive thousands of years of warfare while living in Space Hell. That should mean something.

 

Well, they are and they aren't. It's been part of it for ages that being in the Eye of Terror involves severe time shenanigans: a CSM who just turned traitor might fight enemies that aren't born until hundreds of years later, and then could, next week, fight enemies from before they turned.

 

 

 

You know what I mean.

[Blindhamster]

Honestly, perhaps GW needs to just drop Primaris as a difference to ordinary Marines, except outside perhaps Strategums.. It's getting messier and messier and the arms race for Codex Creep hurts my brain - what's next, 4 attack Primaris Intercessors, leading to 6 attack World Eaters, 6 Attacks Custodes, 8 attack Genestealers... let's draw the line here eh. Chaos Marines are supposed to be fierce due to their renegade status and desperate circumstances.

You sound like me earlier in this thread lol.

 

I think it could happen honestly, it'd come with a price increase for firstborn if things change so that the only difference is stratagem access. But that's not necessarily a bad thing.

 

 

The extra attack simulates the overall vicious savagery necessitated by being a renegade to the Imperium. Doesn't matter if not all Chaos Marines are thousands of years old, the ones who survived going traitor are operating either in the Eye of Terror or in circumstances that are bleak and desperate (supplies and survival). The survivors who prosper are going to have an overall meaner streak than those of their brothers who didn't survive turning traitor.

 

So it makes sense for Chaos Marines to have the extra attack. Remember the game is abstract in many ways and we can't have rules for each squad member to differentiate fighting prowas and affinity. Sure some loyalist Marines are likely fiercer than their brethren, but these variables are better suited to a squad level game.

Personally, I don't buy the idea that chaos marines are somehow more combat skilled than loyalists, when you consider what we're talking about the difference is (or should be) pretty meaningless. Traitor marines can still get chainswords for extra attacks.

 

streamlining to all marines being the legionnary statline base with the same base cost would be pretty logical, the differential would be special rules (with chaos marines IMO needing access to a strat similar to the kabalite noble one to represent veterans of the long war).

 

But yeah, I actually have no idea what to expect anymore :D

[Kallas]

The extra attack simulates the overall vicious savagery necessitated by being a renegade to the Imperium.

 

So not the overall vicious savagery necessitated by having enemies in literally every part of the galaxy and being horrifically outnumbered and often outgunned almost every time they deploy?

[Khornestar]

Seems like quite a bit of effort to justify (or not) a stat change to each other.

 

Kind of hard to know whether or not this will be echoed in the (probably) foregone conclusion of a second loyalist codex. I’ll have to check earlier posts again, but did Grey Knights get Shock Assault in their 9th codex?

 

Edit: here we go:

 

It'd be good, yeah. Mainly it would make things simpler, one less rule in the game.

 

Grey Knights, Death Guard, Thousand Sons and Chaos Space Marines had Shock Assault/Hateful Assault removed, so I think that's highly likely. I know I've mentioned it before in a few threads.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Khornestar

[Medjugorje]

GK got an attack in their datasheet but lost shock assault.

I am pretty sure that all armies will loose them. As Legionares get an additional attack ( in addition to that attack they gained instead hateful assault), i think GW will put the Legionares into the same statline as Primaris because they se see the Primaris as the equivalent and the firstborn is just there because of reasons. I dont expect them to get more then one attack instead of shock assault.

[Captain Idaho]

 

So not the overall vicious savagery necessitated by having enemies in literally every part of the galaxy and being horrifically outnumbered and often outgunned almost every time they deploy?

Consider it the result of attrition, with the remaining Marines being the hardbitten, ruthless and most vicious of those remaining.

 

Remember that the Imperium has resources and can replace their losses. Chaos Marines forces lose men and the strongest survive, with those new replacements that do enter service with them becoming similarly strong or dying quickly.

 

It's a chief tenant of servitude to the dark gods ;)

[Kallas]

 

 

So not the overall vicious savagery necessitated by having enemies in literally every part of the galaxy and being horrifically outnumbered and often outgunned almost every time they deploy?

Consider it the result of attrition, with the remaining Marines being the hardbitten, ruthless and most vicious of those remaining.

 

Remember that the Imperium has resources and can replace their losses. Chaos Marines forces lose men and the strongest survive, with those new replacements that do enter service with them becoming similarly strong or dying quickly.

 

It's a chief tenant of servitude to the dark gods

 

Um, but the Marines that survive in the Imperium are just called Veterans. The CSM that survive are usually called Chosen, often because they survive to gain favour, otherwise they die just as ignominiously as the rest.

 

If the Imperium has the resources to replace losses, that just means that their Scouts and early Marines are more common, not that their combatants are worse. CSM losses are harder to replace - that doesn't make their quality better, it simply means that they have fewer who are more like Veterans. That's fine, but let's not say that basic CSM = Veteran SM - and if you want to represent that, then basic CSM being Veteran equivalents should cost the same as Veterans.

 

You can't give one side Veterans for cheaper for no reason. If their basic troops are supposed to be Veteran quality, then they should damn well cost Veteran prices, especially if their losses are harder to replace.

 

Also also...Renegade CSM who are newly traitor, simply put they aren't more Veteran than Veteran Loyalists.

Edited April 26, 2022 by WarriorFish
Dumb comment removed

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I can’t wait for Primaris to have 3 base attacks !!

[Medjugorje]

I can’t wait for Primaris to have 3 base attacks !!

?? why 

 

Its the same as before.

[Captain Idaho]

Chaos Marines who survive are Chaos Marines. Chosen aren't veterans, they're the equivalent of Honour Guard, so a step above. They're the personal "chosen" of the specific Warlord or commander. Edited April 25, 2022 by Captain Idaho

[Grand_Master_Alpharius]

 

I mean, just because one faction gets something, why do people think that everyone else should get something similar or the same? I mean, what even would be the point of having a different army then? We'd all just be playing the same thing.

 

2A Loyalist Marines wouldn't be the same as 3A Heretic Marines though..?

So they wouldn't be the same thing. 

 

Getting rid of Shock Assault would just be good streamlining - how often do Marines not benefit from Shock Assault in the first place? Fights are over in the first round almost every time anyway, so bumping statlines up and removing extraneous rules just simplifies things with a functionally extremely similar result.

 

I agree FB loyalists would not be the same, that wasn't my contention. I was referriing to the previous comment that just because marines get an extra attack then Custodes should as well. 

 

Furthermore, other than that I like the mechanic, I don't have a problem with it being removed. I just don't think they should. It's just an opinion my dude, we all have them.

 

In point of fact, another opinion I have is that custodes shouldn't be a stand alone faction either. I'm fine with them being additions to an Imperium army on a squad by squad basis, but they don't need to be their own army at all. There, Hot take I know, but in my opinion it needs to be said. I am however under no illusions that GW will give my opinion any more serious thought than anyone else, so there it is, just an opinion. I kinda feel the same way about knights, so there is that too.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Grand_Master_Alpharius

[Toldavf]

They seem to of given chaos the 13th company treatment. Anyone remember that list from the eye of terror campaign? Basically an army of Space wolf Veterans and wulfen.

 

3 attacks base was a surprise for sure I think everyone was expecting 2.

 

As for what it means for the loyalists? All I can say for certain is that GW is very unpredictable when it comes to stat lines. Take orks for example 9th buffed them all to T5, 2 attacks on FB Marines is likely but 3 is less so, would people even want 3 attack tactical squads? We haven't seen how much a standard chaos marine will cost yet and they might be heavily taxed for that profile, which will make running bolters really unattractive.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

What never will cease to amaze me is as follows…

 

Other factions are getting exploded stats - like totally crazy

 

Then there are the so called purists who invariably question everything SM almost like they own a TM… it’s just ridiculous one more attack and now for example Nidz are throwing 50+ MW a turn.