Medjugorje Posted April 26, 2022 Author Share Posted April 26, 2022 Aeldari received 2 attacks too. they are not special because of that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/373894-csm-with-3-a-what-does-that-mean-for-us/page/4/#findComment-5819620 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted April 26, 2022 Share Posted April 26, 2022 The more the attacks for SM is a good thing imo but I want tactical squads to only have one base attack. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/373894-csm-with-3-a-what-does-that-mean-for-us/page/4/#findComment-5819628 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted April 26, 2022 Share Posted April 26, 2022 The real question is where does this all end really. If we add attacks to Primaris/Firstborn (regardless if the preference is across the board or just to Primaris) then it affects more than just the basic units. If Intercessors get an extra attack, does that mean Bladeguard get an extra one as well? If Tactical Marines get an extra attack, does that mean Vanguard Veterans get an additional one also, bringing double Lightning Claws to a whopping 5 attacks a turn (regardless of charging)? What about Dreadnoughts, or characters? What about Chapter specific units like Wulfen or Thunder Wolves? As pointed out in this thread, Grey Knights got an additional attack across the board but didn't get Shock Assault. Is that what will happen or is it because GW are representing the veterancy of Chaos Marines and Grey Knights with an extra attack? I mean, there are units that need the extra attack, but then some really don't. Terminators, for example could do with the extra attack whereas Bladeguard don't really need it to perform. Sweeping changes are clumsy yet selective changes are balance and thematic nightmares. ****** Regarding Custodes getting an extra attack... they don't need it. They have better weapons as well as decent numbers of attacks. They're fine. BLACK BLΠFLY and Khornestar 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/373894-csm-with-3-a-what-does-that-mean-for-us/page/4/#findComment-5819666 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted April 26, 2022 Share Posted April 26, 2022 (edited) does that mean Vanguard Veterans get an additional one also, bringing double Lightning Claws to a whopping 5 attacks a turn (regardless of charging)? I mean, the only difference here is the charging (or being charged, or Heroically Intervening) part. Double Lightning Claw Vanguard get 5 attacks in the first round of combat already. This isn't suddenly "golly 5A?! That's too much!" or else...it would have been too many before. This is removing rules bloat (Shock Assault) because it just doesn't need to exist: how often do you find that Marines aren't benefitting from Shock Assault? Realistically, removing Shock Assault and adding +1 A to profiles is good, simply because it removes any bookkeeping - you don't have to think, "Wait, did this unit charged/get charged? I forgot..." it's just there. The more the attacks for SM is a good thing imo but I want tactical squads to only have one base attack. Can't tell if you're being serious but assuming you are...why? Edited April 26, 2022 by Kallas Marshal_Ondo 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/373894-csm-with-3-a-what-does-that-mean-for-us/page/4/#findComment-5819673 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted April 26, 2022 Share Posted April 26, 2022 I was kidding. phandaal and Kallas 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/373894-csm-with-3-a-what-does-that-mean-for-us/page/4/#findComment-5819711 Share on other sites More sharing options...
phandaal Posted April 26, 2022 Share Posted April 26, 2022 Terminators, for example could do with the extra attack Agreed. Maybe even two more attacks. Built in FNP would not hurt either. This message brought to you by Deathwing Terminators. Grand_Master_Alpharius, Captain Idaho and Brother Kraskor 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/373894-csm-with-3-a-what-does-that-mean-for-us/page/4/#findComment-5819727 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand_Master_Alpharius Posted April 26, 2022 Share Posted April 26, 2022 Terminators, for example could do with the extra attack Agreed. Maybe even two more attacks. Built in FNP would not hurt either. This message brought to you by Deathwing Terminators. I feel you fam! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/373894-csm-with-3-a-what-does-that-mean-for-us/page/4/#findComment-5819748 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted April 26, 2022 Share Posted April 26, 2022 I'm definitely in agreement that removal of rules bloat is good. Regarding the stock extra attack and Shock Assault... I think it's most relevant late game after there are less models available for either side, or for average or less melee units. Contrary to popular opinion on the Internetz I find most combats are NOT resolved in a single turn... BLACK BLΠFLY, 9x19 Parabellum, Grand_Master_Alpharius and 2 others 5 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/373894-csm-with-3-a-what-does-that-mean-for-us/page/4/#findComment-5819755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrathOfTheLion Posted April 26, 2022 Share Posted April 26, 2022 (edited) Chaos Space Marine Legionaries got an extra attack, then the CSM faction as a whole had +1 on top of that with the removal of Hateful Assault, bringing that unit up to 3A from 1A. I could see it being veterancy in some cases, but the removal of Hateful Assault and Shock Assault is 4/4 now, there's a clear pattern. Edited April 26, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/373894-csm-with-3-a-what-does-that-mean-for-us/page/4/#findComment-5819930 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted April 26, 2022 Share Posted April 26, 2022 (edited) Hopefully veteran loyalist SM units such as vanguard vets and terminators will be base 3 attacks. Edited April 26, 2022 by Black Blow Fly Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/373894-csm-with-3-a-what-does-that-mean-for-us/page/4/#findComment-5819933 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand_Master_Alpharius Posted April 27, 2022 Share Posted April 27, 2022 I'm definitely in agreement that removal of rules bloat is good. Regarding the stock extra attack and Shock Assault... I think it's most relevant late game after there are less models available for either side, or for average or less melee units. Contrary to popular opinion on the Internetz I find most combats are NOT resolved in a single turn... Yeah, I totally agree, I've had fist fights that have lasted the entire game and it toally makes sense that a combatant would lose a bit of fervor the longer the combat is drawn out. This is why I like the mechanic, but if you want to talk about bloat? The shock/hateful assault rule is so far down the line of choices to be scrapped/redone that it may as well be insignificant compared to most others. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/373894-csm-with-3-a-what-does-that-mean-for-us/page/4/#findComment-5819994 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted April 27, 2022 Share Posted April 27, 2022 (edited) Got to start somewhere. Whilst I agree there's some representation there to the idea of a drawn out combat reducing the effectiveness of the troops involved, why are Marines the only faction affected that way? As the rule goes right now, Marines get tired in combat and lose an attack, whereas all other armies don't... Edited April 27, 2022 by Captain Idaho Iron Father Ferrum 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/373894-csm-with-3-a-what-does-that-mean-for-us/page/4/#findComment-5820033 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medjugorje Posted April 27, 2022 Author Share Posted April 27, 2022 I'm definitely in agreement that removal of rules bloat is good. Regarding the stock extra attack and Shock Assault... I think it's most relevant late game after there are less models available for either side, or for average or less melee units. Contrary to popular opinion on the Internetz I find most combats are NOT resolved in a single turn... Yeah, I totally agree, I've had fist fights that have lasted the entire game and it toally makes sense that a combatant would lose a bit of fervor the longer the combat is drawn out. This is why I like the mechanic, but if you want to talk about bloat? The shock/hateful assault rule is so far down the line of choices to be scrapped/redone that it may as well be insignificant compared to most others. the more competitive - the less is its important. Got to start somewhere. Whilst I agree there's some representation there to the idea of a drawn out combat reducing the effectiveness of the troops involved, why are Marines the only faction affected that way? As the rule goes right now, Marines get tired in combat and lose an attack, whereas all other armies don't... or Marines are that aggressive and an assault army that they are total strong that noone can surprise them Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/373894-csm-with-3-a-what-does-that-mean-for-us/page/4/#findComment-5820193 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarms48 Posted April 28, 2022 Share Posted April 28, 2022 Pretty sure GW will be removing Shock Assault and just baking in the additional attack into the profile. Which is nice in some specific cases, like protracted combats or if the enemy heroically intervene into you. There were also some abilities that specifically said they didn't stack with Shock Assault, so I would assume that would make those abilities more viable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/373894-csm-with-3-a-what-does-that-mean-for-us/page/4/#findComment-5820466 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted April 28, 2022 Share Posted April 28, 2022 I’d like to see all doctrines always active. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/373894-csm-with-3-a-what-does-that-mean-for-us/page/4/#findComment-5820482 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Kraskor Posted April 28, 2022 Share Posted April 28, 2022 (edited) I was thinking earlier. If Chaos receives stat boosts to be in-line with Primaris, then will that filter across to eg. characters, or other more customisable units. Our Primaris characters & units are very fixed on weapon choice. Presumably Chaos won't be similarly limited (as they have all those kits out there). So they'll take the +1W and +1A of Primaris-level statline, but also have the flexibility of taking eg. a jump pack, or two special weapons and a combi in a squad, etc. Edited April 28, 2022 by Brother Kraskor Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/373894-csm-with-3-a-what-does-that-mean-for-us/page/4/#findComment-5820536 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted April 28, 2022 Share Posted April 28, 2022 The double-special/double-heavy and combiweapon are getting pulled from the Legionary squad options. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/373894-csm-with-3-a-what-does-that-mean-for-us/page/4/#findComment-5820576 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Kraskor Posted April 28, 2022 Share Posted April 28, 2022 The double-special/double-heavy and combiweapon are getting pulled from the Legionary squad options. Ah interesting. That will annoy people I'm sure who've already modelled it! Iron Father Ferrum 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/373894-csm-with-3-a-what-does-that-mean-for-us/page/4/#findComment-5820745 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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