Vanguard Vets loadout changes

[Plague _Lord]

Well since AOC has given a big buff to 70% of all armies it feels like the loadouts of vanguard vets have to change accordingly. The lightning claw has seen a pretty big nerf when going into AOC targets - maybe it's time for powerswords to shine? Napkin maths tells me that a VV with a single LC loses out against a VV with a single power sword when going into a marine target. Dual LC has the best chance to kill with around 35% to kill a space marine intercessor - before AOC the same VV had around 50% chance to get a kill.

 

Are VV even viable in a competitive setting? Sure, they got a buff on defense - allthough you were probably taking a storm shield with them anyway - but they were more often than not used as a suicide unit, a guided missile that was suppossed to delete a unit on an objective and then probably die on the next turn. With their offensive output into most armies being weakend are they worth taking?

[Karhedron]

If we are looking at Marines as the primary target, maybe the Power Fist is the way to go. Also has AP-3 but 2D is good.

[Halandaar]

I know this isn't really the point, but the death of the stupid "Single Claw & Shield" loadout will see no tears from me. 

[TheNewman]

The math says dual LCs lose out to a single PS into a Marine.

[Plague _Lord]

The math says dual LCs lose out to a single PS into a Marine.

 

Nope.

Dual LC - 5 attacks, goes to 3,33 hits, goes to 2,5 wounds after rerolls, goes to 1,25 average damage after saves

Single PS - 3 attacks, goes to 2 hits, goes to 1,33 wounds, goes to 0,44 average damage after saves.

 

This is of course with shock assault applied.

 

I too think single LC and shield is dead and we will probably see more dual LC and possibly power fist armed VV.

[CCE1981]

Powerfists? Even with all the -1 damage going around?

[Marshal Mittens]

Not as much -1 as is sometimes made out to be. Unless you are fighting DG, only a unit or two might have it in most armies.

[TheNewman]

 

 

The math says dual LCs lose out to a single PS into a Marine.

Nope.

Dual LC - 5 attacks, goes to 3,33 hits, goes to 2,5 wounds after rerolls, goes to 1,25 average damage after saves

Single PS - 3 attacks, goes to 2 hits, goes to 1,33 wounds, goes to 0,44 average damage after saves.

 

This is of course with shock assault applied.

 

I too think single LC and shield is dead and we will probably see more dual LC and possibly power fist armed VV.

You did the math wrong on that last step for the PS, it should be 0.89 damage, which is still less than the twin LCs by itself. I was thinking of the numbers into Salamanders, losing the to-wound reroll cuts the LC damage down to 0.83. Sorry about that.

[Karhedron]

Power Fist gets 3 attacks, 1.5 hits and 0.833 failed saves. Given 2D, that averages almost 1 dead Marine.

 

Yes the -1 Damage rule is a pain but usually only applies to a couple of units in each army (apart from DG of course). As long as you have some dedicated anti-tank weapons like melta to deal with such units then Power Fists are a decent answer to elite infantry and lighter vehicles.

[Plague _Lord]

 

 

The math says dual LCs lose out to a single PS into a Marine.

Nope.

Dual LC - 5 attacks, goes to 3,33 hits, goes to 2,5 wounds after rerolls, goes to 1,25 average damage after saves

Single PS - 3 attacks, goes to 2 hits, goes to 1,33 wounds, goes to 0,44 average damage after saves.

 

This is of course with shock assault applied.

 

I too think single LC and shield is dead and we will probably see more dual LC and possibly power fist armed VV.

You did the math wrong on that last step for the PS, it should be 0.89 damage, which is still less than the twin LCs by itself. I was thinking of the numbers into Salamanders, losing the to-wound reroll cuts the LC damage down to 0.83. Sorry about that.

 

 

Ahh yes true - at the last step I went with succesfull saves hah 0,89 is correct and that means that while it's not that much of a difference, it means that dual LC is a bit more effective into space marines.

 

Did the math on some other targets:

vs blight lords the dual LC will do 23% more damage than the single PS

vs Land Raiders dual LC will do 2% more damage than the single PS

 

So it seems that the dual LC will allways be better than the single PS. If we take points under account, assuming it's a VV with jump pack, the LC armed vet will cost 12% more than the PS sword one. So when we compare damage per point efficiency they come out around even but the question is do VV still have a place in the meta? I think yes but it mainly depends on the chapter they are in - for example space wolf wolf guard have access to strats that can put a unit into assault doctrine so they can get that extra -1 ap on a whim. I think I still have a place for them in my deathwatch army tbh.

[TheNewman]

If we're comparing total point efficiency you'd have to include the off-hand weapon to go with the single PS though. That Bolt Pistol or Chain Sword isn't adding much, but it isn't nothing.

 

I've got a set of VVs in progress and I'm seriously considering Grav Pistols for them. That extra S5 Ap3 attack at D2 into power armor looks a lot tastier now that the SS isn't such an auto-take.

Edited April 19, 2022 by TheNewman

[Angelus Nex]

A single chainsword does 0,11 unsaved wounds, against T4 3+ save and AoC. So that makes 0,11+0,89 stack up nicely. Although it is not the same damage though, the numbers look nice and round

[phandaal]

A single chainsword does 0,11 unsaved wounds, against T4 3+ save and AoC. So that makes 0,11+0,89 stack up nicely. Although it is not the same damage though, the numbers look nice and round

As you say, it is important to keep in mind that averages are a continuous line but actual wounds are binary.

 

Wound chances for a power sword and a chainsword are discreet. No doing part of a wound with a power sword and finishing it off with the chainsword.

[Plague _Lord]

If we're comparing total point efficiency you'd have to include the off-hand weapon to go with the single PS though. That Bolt Pistol or Chain Sword isn't adding much, but it isn't nothing.

 

I've got a set of VVs in progress and I'm seriously considering Grav Pistols for them. That extra S5 Ap3 attack at D2 into power armor looks a lot tastier now that the SS isn't such an auto-take.

 

Also thought about grav pistols. Grav pistol and power sword combo for handling power armour?

[Brother Kraskor]

 

If we're comparing total point efficiency you'd have to include the off-hand weapon to go with the single PS though. That Bolt Pistol or Chain Sword isn't adding much, but it isn't nothing.

 

I've got a set of VVs in progress and I'm seriously considering Grav Pistols for them. That extra S5 Ap3 attack at D2 into power armor looks a lot tastier now that the SS isn't such an auto-take.

 

Also thought about grav pistols. Grav pistol and power sword combo for handling power armour?

 

 

That's a cool aesthetic too.

[TheNewman]

 

 

If we're comparing total point efficiency you'd have to include the off-hand weapon to go with the single PS though. That Bolt Pistol or Chain Sword isn't adding much, but it isn't nothing.

 

I've got a set of VVs in progress and I'm seriously considering Grav Pistols for them. That extra S5 Ap3 attack at D2 into power armor looks a lot tastier now that the SS isn't such an auto-take.

Also thought about grav pistols. Grav pistol and power sword combo for handling power armour?

Yeah, that way I'll own five Hammer and Shield guys for big game hunting, five sword and grav guys for elites, and five twin Claw guys for chaff.

[Medicinal Carrots]

With a regular vet, a single claw still beats a power sword, even with AoC, as long as you can reroll to wound (so not vs Salamanders).

 

1 LC is 4 attacks, 2.66 hits, 2 wounds, 1 failed save. Versus .89 for a power sword.

 

A power sword doesn't pull ahead of a single claw until you have 4 attacks with it. So vet sgts should take a power sword over a claw when facing AoC opponents.

 

And if you want an apples to apples comparison, you should compare dual claw to power sword + claw, rather that power and chain swords. If you keep the secondary weapon the same, the points are the same for both, and the better choice winds up entirely unaffected. Dual claw regular vet beats sword and claw, sword and claw sgt beats dual claw vs AoC.

 

Against any non-AoC targets, claws still win for the sgt as well. And against Salamanders, swords are the better choice for everyone in the squad. I expect claws still stay the default 1D weapon for Vanguard, but giving a sgt a different weapon is a better choice than it used to be. I think I'll play around with a sword sgt in my claw squads and see how he does. Also helps him stand out better, which has its own appeal.

 

The bigger loadout shift for me is that storm shields become less appealing. I think keeping 1 or 2 (depending on squad size) around in the squad to handle AP 0 and AP 3 or better is still worthwhile, but more than that becomes a waste now.