Storm Shield loadout on terminators, Vanguard and captains

[Commander Nicky]

Dear All

 

I am a little curious as to what loadout people think to use on Assault Terminators and Vanguard Vets. in terms of Storm Shield after the balance dataslate... I mean I see no use of it on Captains in Terminator armour anymore due to the SS has not effect what so ever, and I am properly going to consider Assualt Terminators with LC, but Vanguard Vets... I am a little usure... What are your considering?

 

Kind regards

 

[Toldavf]

I am considering how long lived AOC will be. Let's see if it survives a few GT's because it's current form is very strong. I will wait to see if it gets nerfed. Edited April 19, 2022 by Toldavf

[CCE1981]

As it stands spending extra points on a storm shield for models with a 2+ save makes little sense. Absolutely none if you have a 2+ and 4++. Factor in opportunity cost and that Storm shield on Terminators becomes less attractive. On Vanguard you should still see them I think. 3+ still goes down to a 5+ from a power sword.

 

Any means of a 2+ armor save is very sexy atm. Blood Angels are very excited with their Sanguinary Guard and Jump Pack Chapter Masters with an inferno pistol, Master-Crafted Relic Blade and Angel Artifice.

 

Come to think of it my White Scars/Space Wolves Captain with Thunderhammer and Teeth of Terra is pretty tough now yoo.

[phandaal]

TH/SS terminators still have the punch from their hammers, and can still take very high AP hits on their 4++.

 

Does mean that LC terminators will stand a much better chance of surviving without a TH/SS bodyguard though.

 

Don't forget LC Relic Terminators either.

[Medjugorje]

Why not both.... 4 to 3 Terminators with claws and 2 with hammers. 

[CCE1981]

On Terminators, to utilize 4++ Save you need AP-4 to reduce your Save below 4+ armor.   So that means that Lightning Claw Terminators will fair a lot better.  I would say that yes a mix of Lightning Claws and Thunderhammer and Storm Shields is a lot more viable.  There are still things like Plasma, melta and Relics out there.

[Medjugorje]

but there are so many armies with ignore cover and/or Ap-4/5

 Space Marine Eradicators for example

[CCE1981]

I wasn't factoring in Cover in my last post.  Also the Eradicators would fall in the "melta" category

[CCE1981]

I will add, I need to readdress my strategy with fighting Terminators.  I use to upset opponents by dumping high volume AP -1, -2 into Terminators and removing them.  This won't be anywhere near as effective anymore.

[Schlitzaf]

So for Terminators/Tactical Chassis Captains: 
Terminators get a 4+ IV Save (albeit need -5 AP to get their normally)

Tactical or Reg Power Armour get a 2+ Save 

For Cpts in 2+ Base Save. If you get hit by an abilitt that reduces tour armor save by 1. And then shot with AP 0 weapon. It matters 

[CCE1981]

“+” = armor save

“++” = Invulnerable Save

 

No cover

AP -3 on a 2+ will leave you with a 4+ save with AoC, or with a Storm Shield a 4+/4++ save.

 

At AP -4 AoC with a 2+ will give you a 5+, or with a Storm Shield a 4++

 

With Cover you have to get to AP-5 before there is a difference.

 

Remember on your 2+ save Captain, and for Space Wolves and a lesser extent Dark Angels Terminators there is an opportunity cost for taking a Storm Shield. That opportunity cost is another weapon. Since you have a Storm Shield in that hand.

 

It comes down to what do you value, do you want a little bit of survivability, or do you want to do extra damage?

 

It can matter but how often will it matter, your scenario seems a bit extreme, but I can also take a Jump Pack Captain with a Thunderhammer and Teeth of Terra as a Space Wolf/WhiteScars Successor with plenty of Warlord trait options to push those attacks, or a Blood Angels Jump Pack Chapter Master with a 2+/4++, T5, W6, with a Master-Crafted Relic Blade swapping a 10pt Stormshield for a 0pt Inferno Pistol.

[Angelus Nex]

The problem with stormshield terminators is that they have thunderhammers at ap -2. Which becomes AP -1 against other power armour (just as LC). Tactical terminators with chainfists seem like the way forward IMHO.

[Iron Lord]

Given that Hammerhead Railguns ignore invulnerable saves, as do prism cannons when combining fire, a storm shield may be handy there, even if the save rarely succeeds.

 

A Terminator with Storm shield, in cover, can have a 6+ save against a Hammerhead Railgun (and no save at all otherwise). I think the Prism Cannon has a slightly inferior AP to the Railgun.

[Lord Raven 19]

Given that Hammerhead Railguns ignore invulnerable saves, as do prism cannons when combining fire, a storm shield may be handy there, even if the save rarely succeeds.

 

A Terminator with Storm shield, in cover, can have a 6+ save against a Hammerhead Railgun (and no save at all otherwise). I think the Prism Cannon has a slightly inferior AP to the Railgun.

AOC also gives said terminator a 6+ save against a railgun.

[phandaal]

 

Given that Hammerhead Railguns ignore invulnerable saves, as do prism cannons when combining fire, a storm shield may be handy there, even if the save rarely succeeds.

 

A Terminator with Storm shield, in cover, can have a 6+ save against a Hammerhead Railgun (and no save at all otherwise). I think the Prism Cannon has a slightly inferior AP to the Railgun.

AOC also gives said terminator a 6+ save against a railgun.

 

 

Yep. Storm Shields are only useful on Terminators for the 4++ now. Their other main benefit is that they are still the other half of the TH/SS combo.

[Medicinal Carrots]

The problem with stormshield terminators is that they have thunderhammers at ap -2. Which becomes AP -1 against other power armour (just as LC). Tactical terminators with chainfists seem like the way forward IMHO.

 

Chainfists do indeed now edge out powerfists vs 2W marines. 3 chainfist attacks will average .8341 dead marines, while 3 powerfist attacks will average .8333 dead marines. The chainfists are actually more ahead than that makes it look, since there's a chance to half kill and the rest of the squad or another attack can more easily finish the job. But even in a single model vacuum the chainfist wins. Unless the enemy has a storm shield, then the power fist wins.

 

Compared to thunder hammers vs Gravis, chainfists also come out on top. .5247 dead Gravis for a chaifist vs .5 for a thundet hammer. Same notes about why they're better than the numbers seem. I haven't rum the numbers vs terminators, but I suspect they win there too, as the better AP should be even more of a factor (and same caveat about storm shields probably flipping it back to favor hammers)

[Captain Idaho]

Been sat on this myself and I think Vanguard will still enjoy Storm Shields since AP0 still exists (just not in the numbers it used to) therefore having some models with a 2+ save is very important.

 

I also think Thunder Hammers are still important for Marines armies, as is a 4+ save vs AP-4 and better weapons. Remember Tau and Eldar are a thing as is massed Melta!

 

I think the Storm Shield is dead on Terminator Characters, however. Namely Captains who utilised one the most for that sweet 1+ save.

 

That last part is the shame as Terminator Captains looked cool with Storm Shields.

[Chaplain Augustus]

Terminator captains with shields do look great! I will be giving mine the shield eternal so he's got something goin on :)

[XeonDragon]

The problem with stormshield terminators is that they have thunderhammers at ap -2. Which becomes AP -1 against other power armour (just as LC). Tactical terminators with chainfists seem like the way forward IMHO.

 Yup, and lightning claws are the same. I think terminators are going to be good... but not against other armies with AOC.

[phandaal]

I also think Thunder Hammers are still important for Marines armies, as is a 4+ save vs AP-4 and better weapons. Remember Tau and Eldar are a thing as is massed Melta!

 

I think the Storm Shield is dead on Terminator Characters, however. Namely Captains who utilised one the most for that sweet 1+ save.

 

 

TH is still good for the flat 3 damage.

 

Shield is almost useless for Terminator Captains now. "Almost" because relic shields do exist.

[Commander Nicky]

So if I would use a Terminator Captain with focus on close combat, I can just as easely (or better) give him a TH/chainfist + LC (Kind of Tyberos the Red Wake ) as TH/SS combo?

 

I just do not feel that a Terminator Captain with TH + SS is of any use anymore (or at least until they chance the rules...)

 

What loadout do any of you use on a Terminator Captain?

Edited April 27, 2022 by Commander Nicky

[Captain Idaho]

A combi-weapon Thunder Hammer/Relic Blade seems like a cost effective option really. I mean, Storm Shields will have to come down since their use is much reduced for most models.

 

Shame as I have an amazing miniature my mate printed for me that has a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield and now he's just...

[Rik Lightstar]

My Jump Pack Power Armour Captain has been pretty happy with Combi-Melta and Relic Blade for some time, I can't see that it'd be a bad choice on a Terminator Captain either.

 

Plus, big swords just look better!

 

Rik

[Vermintide]

Well, just about a third of my favourite list is Terminators, most of them with SS (two squads of TH/SS termies with a captain and libby in tow.) Trying to get my head around what the AoC rue means with them, because I'm hearing people say the SS is obsolete now etc.

 

They already get +1 to saves, so AP-1 is ignored, AP-2 puts them to 3+, AP-3 puts them to 4++.

 

So with AoC now they get an extra -1 to that AP, so AP-1 does nothing, AP-2 also does nothing, AP-3 puts them on a 3+, and AP-4 puts them on 4++.

 

For a regular non-SS termie it would normally be AP-1 puts them on 3+, AP-2 puts them on 4+, AP-3 puts them on 5++.

 

With AoC on a non-SS termie it's AP-1 ignored, AP-2 puts them on a 3+, AP-3 puts them on 4+, AP-4 puts them on 5++.

 

Am I getting this right? Still seems like there's a pretty clear benefit in storm shields to me, in that you get to flat out ignore two points of AP as well as a 4++, which is huge. Those guys are going to be hard as nails. On captains the storm shield was already less valuable considering they have a built in 4++ (hence mine has combi-melta instead), but ignoring two points of AP significantly blunts quite a lot of CC weapons, which is where you typically want your Captain. Not sure I would call that obsolete.

 

Has anyone had much experience playtesting it yet?

[Feral_80]

AoC does NOT work on models equipped with shield. Read the full rule.

 

As weird as it is, that is how it works. And an obvious hint that the rule creates internal imbalance, thus I do not expect it to last in this form.