Point Reduction

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Well many of us are happy about the new rule Armor of Contempt and yes it was sorely needed. Something I’ve been hearing this week which does not compute is there is no need to reduce points for any of our units… “there would be too many SM on the table top and that is not elite… LOL FACEPALM. I am hearing this a lot from certain content creators, ones that are evidently quite obidient and good at that role.

 

The major points increases came prior to the release of the Drukhari codex. Hmmm Custodes, Harlequins, Tau and now even the Nidz. Seriously don’t drink this koolaid. Geedub they still have a lot of work to do to makes things right again.

[CCE1981]

One of the big contentions now is that Storm Shields should be 0 pts now. Against most weapons they do little, and have an opportunity cost in taking them now.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I don't know I can understand marines not getting point drops. I do like the size of my force. That said there definitely should have been more increases for the top tiers. Edited April 20, 2022 by Jorin Helm-splitter

[Helias_Tancred]

Our entire vehicle line is in tremendous need of a points reduction. Some sizable. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Definitely. I never see the new tanks or speeders ever used.

[MegaVolt87]

It's still hard to reconcile its the same Devs who wrote exceptional Astartes walker rules are the same ones that wrote the rest of the faction vehicles. 10th ed can't come soon enough honestly.

[Karhedron]

One of the big contentions now is that Storm Shields should be 0 pts now. Against most weapons they do little, and have an opportunity cost in taking them now.

Depends on the unit. Vanguard Veterans still benefit from the 4++ against AP-3 which can be fielded en-masse (plasma, power fists DCCWs etc). I agree that on anything in TDA, it is largely irrelevant now.

[Medjugorje]

Definitely. I never see the new tanks or speeders ever used.

this is exactly was I said when the point updates were released but here so many people shout me down.

 

Like I said - they should have decreaed the tanks by 50 points instead of 15

[Maritn]

Repulsors need even more than a 50 point cut.

[Dracos]

On one hand we want to play with all our toys, so … points reductions

 

On the other hand we want them to feel Elite, so … powerful rules

 

 

Pretty much the two camps within our community. Can’t have it both ways and a lot of reasonable feelings about it either way. It would help if GW quit seeing marines instead of humans as the baseline. We’re never going to get a true elite feeling that way. [*cough* Custodes]

 

9th has become bloated with so many rules and exceptions to rules and exceptions to exceptions that it feels like a large bright apple that has gone rotten in its core. Time to start over and hopefully reset to where the new player doesnt need a PhD to decypher the game and feel competitive

 

The simple answer is to drop points and call it a day until 10e but with strong rumors of SM 2.0 (and Chapter Supplements?) on the way, dropping points would be about as criminal as it was for Custodes prior to their release. So ….. while I’d welcome a point or decrease and the keyword ObSec for all Marine infantry … I dont see it coming anytime soo.

[Tawnis]

On one hand we want to play with all our toys, so … points reductions

 

On the other hand we want them to feel Elite, so … powerful rules

 

 

Pretty much the two camps within our community. Can’t have it both ways and a lot of reasonable feelings about it either way. It would help if GW quit seeing marines instead of humans as the baseline. We’re never going to get a true elite feeling that way. [*cough* Custodes]

 

9th has become bloated with so many rules and exceptions to rules and exceptions to exceptions that it feels like a large bright apple that has gone rotten in its core. Time to start over and hopefully reset to where the new player doesnt need a PhD to decypher the game and feel competitive

 

The simple answer is to drop points and call it a day until 10e but with strong rumors of SM 2.0 (and Chapter Supplements?) on the way, dropping points would be about as criminal as it was for Custodes prior to their release. So ….. while I’d welcome a point or decrease and the keyword ObSec for all Marine infantry … I dont see it coming anytime soo.

Yeah, though I do think there is a bit of a middle ground compromise to this, not sure it would be enough though. 

 

- Drop Tactical Squads by 1pt per model and Scouts by 2pts per, also give Scouts Obsec. Neither are all that good ATM, though Tacticals are a little more viable now with AoC reducing the AP from Intercessors in most games. 

- Vehicle/skimmer points drop. I don't play enough of them to know exactly by how much, but crank it down every update a bit at a time until it feels right if you have to. 

 

I think this would still keep the core marines feeling elite while helping vary the armies seen on the table. It certainly doesn't fix everything, but I think it would be a good start. 

[Chaplain Augustus]

I think with "Armour of Contempt" thhat most space marine infantry are fairly costed. There will always be some units that will be a bargain and some that will be a bit overcosted and that's ok. What's not ok is every vehicle that's not a dreadnought being outrageously overcosted.

The Primaris tanks and speeders are certainly suffering but the worst offender must be the Predator's cost. 170pts (with appropriate sponsons) for a rhino chassis with guns and one (ONE!) extra wound is actually insulting. I say all rhino chassis (including whirlwinds since the nerf) reduced by 20pts (except maybe hunter/stalker) would make for interesting mechanized lists that would still not be abusable.

[BloodyB]

I think most tanks need between 20-60 points shaved off the price, but at least now my Land Raider might survive a turn. Only when the moon shines through Aquarius and my opponent isn't spamming Hammerheads/dark lances/Multimelta Devs in pods, but it could theoretically happen.

 

Assault Squads need a drop or Vanguard need to cost more, a unit shouldn't be completely useless because the better version costs pennies more. Give Vanguard an edge over Assault marines, like Sternguard have over Tacticals, maybe make their basic chainsword Master-Crafted? From there up the cost a couple of points. It isn't perfect, but at least those glitzy chainswords will be used more often.

 

Devastator Centurions are in a similar situation, they cost nearly as much as a 5-man squad devastator squad per model, and ~50% than an Eradicator. Why would I ever take 225 points worth of disappointment? Drop them to 60 points a model and maybe then I might be tempted, but even then I want Bolter discipline on them.

 

Armour of Contempt is really quite powerful, letting even scouts a tricky proposition to deal with. But right now, a lot of units that have it have just become bullet sponges, it's like upping the difficulty on Fallout 4, they aren't more dangerous, just harder to kill. Reivers are a particular offender, but a lot of Phobos units are just gimmick vessels on the level of Eldar. Either make their goofy strats more usable, or make the unit useful without burning CP.

[Djangomatic82]

I'm pretty adamant that a 5 man Assault Squads with Jump Pack should cost 75 points base. Unless there's something implemented to make them more usefull or killy, i dont think a 10 point saving versus VV's and a different slot really justifies the -1 attack they have in comparison. a 35 point saving totally would make them a very tempting option.

[Blindhamster]

personally, id like to see marine forces be relatively small but very resilient and killy. It fits their lore a lot better and allows for people to actually have more customised models where the entire army feels like an army of heroes.

look at the basic chaos legionnaire profile. 2 wounds, 3 attacks base. Add on doctrines, bolter discipline, armour of contempt and maybe make the humble bolter (and its variants) a little better and I feel like marines would really start to feel like marines should feel. There ARE internal balance issues between units, but I don't necessarily agree that it means the not so obvious choices are too expensive, I still think vanguard are just too good for their cost atm.

Vehicles do need to get cheaper, or perhaps marine vehicles shouldnt degrade (representing the elite skill level that lets them fight at peak efficiency right till the last), or they need a better version of Armour of Contempt.

[Orange Knight]

I think the way to address Astartes vehicles would be through a more generous degradation profile, updated weapon profiles, point reductions and a slight increase in durability.

 

Take the Repulsor Excutioner as an example. A model I really like, but one that is struggling a lot.

 

-It should have a 2+ save, which gives it a 4+ save against AP3 weapons when you factor in Armour of Contempt.

-The Main gun needs a better profile. Perhaps 2 shots at AP5, that deal D3+6 Damage, or even greater.

-It needs a point reduction in the region of 50 - 70 points.

-The Ballistic Skill cannot degrade as the vehicle takes damage.

 

With vehicles like the Hammerhead, that could deal more than 12 damage per hit, and other such weapons that could reduce a Tank like the Repulsor to the lowest profile in one shot, if not outright destroy it, the punishment for taking damage is simply too brutal on a vehicle like this.

Astartes pilots would be calm and collected under fire, and could even aim manually with high proficiency. The vehicle should not have a degrading profile for the accuracy of it's weapons.

 

Additionally, when it come to the hover tanks in particular, they need some new rule that allows them to move over terrain but not end up balancing on top of a small house, and they should get the Repulsor field back as a standard rule and not a stratagem.

 

I think most of the vehicles need to be addressed with significant changes like the ones I have outlined above, if not more. Some have decent rules but are pointed too high, whilst other need to be looked at top to bottom.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

It's worth pointing out that Nids got a pretty big buff with monster stats. Eldar vehicles got some pretty good rules as well.

 

With legionaries having 3a base, it wouldn't surprise me if there are some other big buffs on the way.

[Kallas]

I think the way to address Astartes vehicles would be through a more generous degradation profile, updated weapon profiles, point reductions and a slight increase in durability.

 

Absolutely this. Especially the degradation profiles.

 

When I was comparing the Predator and Falcon, I noticed that the Falcon's degradation is far more generous when it comes to movement. The Predator goes from 12"->6"->3", so basically halving every step down to roughly a quarter of maximum on its lowest profile, which is the same for all of the Marine 'MBT' vehicles (so not the Stormspeeder or Redemptor). While the Grav-tanks and other skimmers seem to get a freebie in that regard, that's pretty dumb and definitely hurts the MBTs.

 

Having a Rhino-chassis tank down to 3" movement takes it pretty much out of the game in terms of mobility; same for a Land Raider going 10"->5"->3".

 

Similar to how other people have suggested, I also think some stuff definitely needs to leave being a stratagem and become innate rules again. Why the hell can only one vehicle use their Smoke Launchers?! That makes no damn sense. Why, if there are multiple Land Raiders/Repulsors/Storm Ravens, can only one vehicle benefit from having a Machine Spirit? They're not linked in any way, they're entirely independent, they shouldn't be limited by others having the same keyword. This stuff just smacks of GW writers being lazy and not being able to come up with interesting stratagems - which is missing the point anyway: we need fewer, more interesting stratagems, not a shedload of crap ones.

[Medjugorje]

When I was GW I would give the assault Squad for 1 point per model the special rule OBsec and Blood Angels and Raven Guard can have that special rule for free (additional chapter tactic). But we have to wait until the Primaris equivalents will be released.

[jarms48]

In terms of Armour of Contempt and infantry datasheets I think we might need to wait and see how the meta shapes up before shifting points around. 

 

What I do and always have agreed with changing points for is vehicles. Such as:

- Razorback: 90 points. +10 points for twin assault cannon or twin lascannon.

- Predator Destructor and Annihilator: 100 points. +20 points for heavy bolter sponsons. +30 points for lascannon sponsons.

- Baal Predator: 90 points with the baal flamestorm cannon. +10 points for the twin assault cannon. +20 points for heavy bolter or heavy flamer sponsons.

- Vindicator: 120 points. 

- Hunter: 95 points. 

- Stalker: 105 points.

- Whirlwind: 100 points. +5 points for whirlwind vengeance launcher.

 

That should make all of the codex Rhino based vehicles actually viable. 

 

- Land Raider, Land Raider Redeemer, Land Raider Crusader: 210 points.

 

Why such a massive drop? That's the same as the Ork Kill Rig, which is a very similar vehicle. Except the Kill Rig is still the better transport, but the Land Raider would be actually justified for its durability and firepower. 

[Kallas]

- Land Raider, Land Raider Redeemer, Land Raider Crusader: 210 points.

 

Make it 225 and give it the damn Assault Vehicle rule. Bloody Impulsor gets it, the glorified flatbed truck, but the vehicle intended to deploy troops directly into combat doesn't.

 

*grumble grumble, Primaris, grumble grumble*

[Khornestar]

If it helps (I know it doesn’t, I lament the loss of the rule), occupants can only shoot and not charge when disembarking from impulsors after moving. Special rules from I dunno who potentially notwithstanding.

[Kallas]

If it helps (I know it doesn’t, I lament the loss of the rule), occupants can only shoot and not charge when disembarking from impulsors after moving. Special rules from I dunno who potentially notwithstanding.

 

Oh sure yeah. Still frustrating that a truck gets the rule and not the dedicated vehicle designed for that purpose...

[jarms48]

I completely agree that the Land Raider should get the same Assault Vehicle rule. It use to have it, at least the Crusader did from memory.

[Monstra Sumus]

All non vehicle models are fine points wise but every single vehicle is overpriced. I take have no interest in them because of that.

 

Yes a Repulsor Executioner can put out a fair amount of fire power but is it worth sometimes a third of my list in points? No.

 

Land Raiders should be Assault Vehicles and I should be able to put Primaris inside them but that's a whole different grumble.