Possible evidence that Firstborn could stick around forever.

[Tawnis]

So, I was looking at the newly confirmed the plastic Spartan Tank for 30k and it got me to thinking. While they haven't explicitly stated yet that the Spartan would get 40k rules, I can't see them not doing that. While most of the 30k FW stuff doesn't have 40k rules, anything in plastic does and so do all their other supplemental products like BSF and Kill Team. So, if we do get 40k rules for this, it will be more-less brand new 40k rules for a firstborn product. 

 

Many of us (myself included) have been worried about the Firstborn being phased out in favour of Primaris as there hasn't functionally been a new firstborn model since 8th started. However, this new release got me thinking that GW really could have their cake and eat it too. All the new stuff for "40k" can be flashy new Primaris, but they can (and from the Spartan seem to be willing to) introduce new Firstborn units to 40k by funneling them through 30k. 

 

What do you all think, is it just wishful thinking, or could you see GW going this route?

[Iron Lord]

I can believe that whenever a Forgeworld model comes out in plastic, it will end up in a codex and be in for the long haul. Contemptor Dreadnoughts spring to mind. Didn't the plastic model come out first (in Betrayal at Calth - November 2015) then get "standard 40K" 7e  rules in the Angels of Death book (April 2016)? And then get into the codex itself in 8e?

Edited April 21, 2022 by Iron Lord

[Tawnis]

I wasn't playing much back then so I'm not 100% sure, but it did come out in Betrayal at Calth and that was before 8th edition. So yeah, likely would have been 8th codex because while (As far as I know) it was usable in 7th, it certainly wasn't in the 7th codex.

[Evil Eye]

The Contemptor's been around for a while and had 40K rules in 5th edition via a FW book.

 

Anyway, I still don't think that Firstborn are "going away". As I've said before, they'll tease and tease until the fanbase has given up hope, then suddenly go "Look! Old thing is new again!" and release new Firstborn models, and everyone will buy their Space Marine armies again.

[Orange Knight]

If the HH take off, I can see the 30k range staying around for a long while.

 

After all, I'm sure GW would love to sell us all TWO Astartes armies lol

[The Neverborn]

"Forever" is a looong time

 

If the HH take off, I can see the 30k range staying around for a long while.

After all, I'm sure GW would love to sell us all TWO Astartes armies lol

What he said!

[WrathOfTheLion]

If the HH take off, I can see the 30k range staying around for a long while.

 

After all, I'm sure GW would love to sell us all TWO Astartes armies lol

The 30k range should be around for a while, as a separate game system.

 

As far as two armies, they may go for three, if it's popular enough and they think they could redesign/redo MK VII and the 40k vehicles.

[Marshal Mittens]

I think we will see old 40k stuff true scaled as horus heresy while lots of older 40k kits go LCTB or legends.

[phandaal]

 

As far as two armies, they may go for three, if it's popular enough and they think they could redesign/redo MK VII and the 40k vehicles.

 

 

This is what I and many other people would consider "Firstborn sticking around." Not models from the 30k range.

[Jolemai]

The 40k rules for the Spartan Assault Tank can be found on page 36 of the Imperial Armour Compendium.

[WrathOfTheLion]

 

 

As far as two armies, they may go for three, if it's popular enough and they think they could redesign/redo MK VII and the 40k vehicles.

 

 

This is what I and many other people would consider "Firstborn sticking around." Not models from the 30k range.

 

That's what I was roundabout saying to elaborate on why it might happen, just that it won't happen at the same time. Such a thing could be many years out.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I don’t think it proves anything except GW is willing to double dip on their products as much as possible.

 

I still think they’re going to phase firstborn out into legends by 2030.

Firstborn die hards will continue playing under legends or just invest in HH, which will force them to buy even more stuff.

Meaning they’re unlikely to lose a many of any firstborn only players.

[DesuVult]

2030 is 8 years out. How accurate were predictions about the state of 40k 8 years ago? As I recall that was the tail end of 6th.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

I can believe that whenever a Forgeworld model comes out in plastic, it will end up in a codex and be in for the long haul. Contemptor Dreadnoughts spring to mind. Didn't the plastic model come out first (in Betrayal at Calth - November 2015) then get "standard 40K" 7e  rules in the Angels of Death book (April 2016)? And then get into the codex itself in 8e?

 

Contemptors came out in 2011 for Badab War. So did a lot of other stuff that eventually was used as the foundation of 30K, like Tartaros and Cataphractii and older power armor marks. They all came out around 2010-2011 and were extremely popular, and FW ended up releasing 30K as a game system in 2012 with even more new models and characters. You can see a site reporting on the original news announcement dated around July 2011 here: https://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/new-forge-world-40k-releases

 

It's not always a guarantee that plastic will stay in 40K. Plenty of plastic in Legends and even newer ones like the plastic Terminator Librarian are getting retired. Tartaros and Cataphractii were popular enough to get plastic kits and GW decided why not roll them into 40K just for extra sales/advertisement, but now they get scaled down into Relic Terminators and who knows if they'll stick around if they ever retire Firstborn.

Edited April 22, 2022 by Tyberos the Red Wake

[Medjugorje]

I remember when the old 2nd edtion marines were too old. You didnt saw them for long after 3rd edtion release of the newly implemented Tactical squad.

It cycled out without GWs help. And as we see the most Marine Armies I played ( in tourneys and in my gaming club ) are nowadays Primaris.

 

I think they dont have to do this. They will see what is played and what not... and then slowly thrown into legends. But that will be within the next 10 years I think.

Especially some kits are not that old like Centurions, Vanguard Veterans and Sternguards.

[Orange Knight]

The 40k rules for the Spartan Assault Tank can be found on page 36 of the Imperial Armour Compendium.

They can, but those rules are extremely underpowered and over-costed, with the restrictions of being a Lord of War on top.

 

It's why I've made the point that this unit needs proper codex support, but GW are equally likely to keep the focus on the HH, and that decision also has merit.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2030 is 8 years out. How accurate were predictions about the state of 40k 8 years ago? As I recall that was the tail end of 6th.

might be 8 years out but could happen sooner, I just said that by 2030 firstborn will likely be gone

[Rik Lightstar]

As we've seen the MKVI appear to be larger than the current First Born models.

 

The response to Primaris from a miniatures perspective has been broadly positive (lore is another topic).

 

Especially given the time scales since Primaris release I think they're using Heresy as a method to do a "re-scale" of the First Born range without 40k players having a big sulk about their current models being invalidated. We all know that plenty of people WILL use the new Heresy Marines for 40k armies.

 

Rik

[Kallas]

They will see what is played and what not... and then slowly thrown into legends.

 

The way you say this makes it sound like it's out of GW's hands. It is decidedly not. GW are pushing Primaris since the day they dropped them: that is a major factor in why there are more Primaris armies popping up - newer players get pushed towards Primaris because there is a drive from GW to play Primaris (not saying rules-wise, just generally - their marketing is heavily Primaris focused).

 

Edit: Of course they're pushing them, they want a return on their investment. But it's still  and entirely obvious. The simple fact that Firstborn stuff gets Legends'ded and Firstborn models get rotated out of production pretty heavily is quite clearly a push towards Primaris/away from Firstborn. From a purely numbers point of view it makes sense (push the new product) but it is kind of obnoxious from the other side.

Edited April 22, 2022 by Kallas

[Evil Eye]

 

The 40k rules for the Spartan Assault Tank can be found on page 36 of the Imperial Armour Compendium.

They can, but those rules are extremely underpowered and over-costed, with the restrictions of being a Lord of War on top.

 

It's why I've made the point that this unit needs proper codex support, but GW are equally likely to keep the focus on the HH, and that decision also has merit.

 

Not everything needs to be perfectly optimal. And if any model deserves to be a costly Lord of War it's a rare, Heresy-era super heavy tank; it's not something every Chapter would even have access to. It's like if you were playing a WW2 wargame in a scenario set in the Russian invasion of Germany and had rules for a WW1 Mk IV tank rolled out of a museum as a weapon of last resort (which actually happened IIRC)- it wouldn't make any sense for it to be as powerful as a then-modern German or even Russian tank.

 

I think the idea that every single unit needs to be equally viable in a competitive setting is kind of a bad thing, if I'm honest, and plays into the "tabletop videogame" model that GW has pushed. Tabletop wargames aren't videogames and really shouldn't be treated as such. The rules for a unit should reflect how the in-universe counterpart behaves and functions, and not every weapon is created equal.

[Iron Lord]

It being a Lord of War was a change from 7E, where it was a Heavy Support choice, and only the Spartan variants with big guns (Typhon, Cerberus) were Lords of War.

 

It also has less wounds than most vehicle Lords of War. For comparison, the Malcador variants have the almost the same number of Wounds and are Heavy Support.

Edited April 22, 2022 by Iron Lord

[Orange Knight]

I'm not saying everything needs to be equally viable.

I'm saying that the Spartan is one of many units that are woefully underpowered and over-costed. It needs to be addressed in a codex release, otherwise using one is a handicap on yourself that leads to immersion breaking dissatisfaction, when a much cheaper unit without lore that impresses as much happens to remove the Spartan in a few shots.

[Kallas]

I think the idea that every single unit needs to be equally viable in a competitive setting is kind of a bad thing, if I'm honest, and plays into the "tabletop videogame" model that GW has pushed. Tabletop wargames aren't videogames and really shouldn't be treated as such. The rules for a unit should reflect how the in-universe counterpart behaves and functions, and not every weapon is created equal.

 

Right, there are two different things here though.

1. In a competitive setting, yes things absolutely should be balanced, or at least aim for balance, to make all units at least viable if not necessarily particularly strong.
2. Balancing around lore and in-universe explanations is fine, but it doesn't preclude a unit from being competitively costed.

Loreful units can be competitively balanced. There are basically no units in the game that have the lore of, "literally useless". Even Grots and the like are useful as meatshields. Even if a unit isn't particularly good, it can be made competitively priced.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The current 40K rules don’t support it as a LoW.

[Medjugorje]

The current 40K rules don’t support it as a LoW.

as I remember its in the heavy support slot and cost 1 CP - but i am not sure right now.