Possible evidence that Firstborn could stick around forever.

[Iron Lord]

 

The current 40K rules don’t support it as a LoW.

 

 

 

as I remember its in the heavy support slot and cost 1 CP - but i am not sure right now.

 

 

 

On the 5th page of this thread:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/373914-heresy-thursday-plastic-spartan/page-5

 

is a pic of the  current Spartan rules (taken from 9e Imperial Armour Compendium). They have the Lord of War fist symbol in the corner.

 

 

The point I'm trying to make is that it being changed to LOW in 8e-9e was a bad call, when some equal-sized vehicles weren't given the LOW rules.

 

Effectively, as of 8e and 9e - the size positions have been reversed despite the models not changing - Malcador chassis vehicles were super-heavy and Lord of War - now they're Heavy Support and Not Titanic (whereas the Spartan was Heavy Support and Not Superheavy, and is now LoW and Titanic).

 

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by Iron Lord

[Evil Eye]

 

I think the idea that every single unit needs to be equally viable in a competitive setting is kind of a bad thing, if I'm honest, and plays into the "tabletop videogame" model that GW has pushed. Tabletop wargames aren't videogames and really shouldn't be treated as such. The rules for a unit should reflect how the in-universe counterpart behaves and functions, and not every weapon is created equal.

 

Right, there are two different things here though.

1. In a competitive setting, yes things absolutely should be balanced, or at least aim for balance, to make all units at least viable if not necessarily particularly strong.
2. Balancing around lore and in-universe explanations is fine, but it doesn't preclude a unit from being competitively costed.

Loreful units can be competitively balanced. There are basically no units in the game that have the lore of, "literally useless". Even Grots and the like are useful as meatshields. Even if a unit isn't particularly good, it can be made competitively priced.

 

I'd firmly disgree. Competitive settings are not the norm for 40K, they are (or at least, should be) an outlier. The game should be built and balanced around narrative/casual play, and if you want to play it competitively you should go in expecting that not every unit is going to be all that useful. If you're going to play a version of the game that is as cutthroat as possible, you can't expect every single unit to be viable.

 

Furthermore, GW has repeatedly shown they are not good at balancing for such environments, and their efforts to do so with rapid-fire updates and restrictions have IMO made the game worse. I'd MUCH rather GW focused on just writing rules that are cool, fun and reflected the fluff, and quite frankly abandoned all attempts at making the square peg of 40K fit into the round hole of tournament play. If that means the tourney/ultra competitive scene collapses then so be it IMO.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I really think they've stuck with primaris in every starter set so that a lot of the newer players will have to start HH completely from scratch. They know how big that game can be, it did well even though the rules were expensive, and the resin models were expensive. It has some big advantages

 

1) It should be easier to balance because most of the fractions use the same core models.

 

2) people love fictional civil wars.

 

3) Marines vs. Marines is theme instead of drawback (even space marine players wish there were less of us). 

 

To me this just feels like a well thought plan to get people to start new armies. Firstborn will stick around as long as they sell, and I think these HH kits and the dev team are going to keep people invested in them.

[Kallas]

I'd firmly disgree. Competitive settings are not the norm for 40K, they are (or at least, should be) an outlier.

 

I mean, I didn't say that they are, but also this is not really a reasonable stance. Competitive does not directly correlate to tournament play: reasonable competitive balance is, and should be, a viable way to play the game.

 

No one is pushing that everyone should be playing competitive Matched Play tournament games, much like no one is pushing that everyone should play Open War, completely rules-unbound games.

 

The game should be built and balanced around narrative/casual play

 

I'm sorry, but no. This is ridiculous. Ultimately, 40k is (and all Warhammer tabletop games are - not the board games like Cursed City) a game about winning and losing. That doesn't always have to be a focus, but each game does have a victor and a defeated; obviously, having a fun game is more important but, again, this doesn't preclude a reasonable attempt to balance the game so that all units have at least a decent time on the board for their abilities and points cost/Power Level.

 

Deep down, no-one needs rules to play a Narrative battle. Nobody needs to be told by the rules, "Yes, you can bring 50 Dreadnoughts vs 5,000 Cultists if you want to" because...of course anyone can just do that. The whole point of having a ruleset is to make it a framework for a (relatively) even playing field so that players can compete against each other. If players just want to roll some dice, they really don't need rules for that, they just agree to whatever they want to.

 

If you're going to play a version of the game that is as cutthroat as possible, you can't expect every single unit to be viable.

 

That there is a strawman. You're equating any mention of competitiveness as 'cutthroat WAAC' style competitiveness. Yes, that WAAC mindset is competitive, but it is a small part of it. Wanting a fair, as-balanced-as-possible set of rules and points should be desirable even for casual players, because fair is fun - and if someone wants to play an unbalanced scenario...well they can, because there's literally no way to prevent that!

 

Every single unit should be viable in its own way, I don't understand how one could possibly want a game where X unit is actually just straight up bad and that's somehow a good thing? If a unit is just bad, then it becomes unenjoyable to play with, because it doesn't do anything, which is much like those unbalanced games where on army just blows the other off the table in Turn 1; it's not fun, because there's no back-and-forth, there's no competition.

 

Furthermore, GW has repeatedly shown they are not good at balancing for such environments, and their efforts to do so with rapid-fire updates and restrictions have IMO made the game worse. I'd MUCH rather GW focused on just writing rules that are cool, fun and reflected the fluff, and quite frankly abandoned all attempts at making the square peg of 40K fit into the round hole of tournament play. If that means the tourney/ultra competitive scene collapses then so be it IMO.

 

Sure, GW have been bad at balancing. But that doesn't mean that balancing shouldn't be the goal. It's like saying, "Oh, well we can't cure this illness, so we might as well just give up and let them all suffer." Of course not! Try and make it better, even if you don't quite fix it perfectly, improving the quality of life of the ill person (or, in this case, improving the balance so it's better that it was) is a worthy goal.

 

This is a prime example of Perfection Being The Enemy Of Good.

 

I'd MUCH rather GW focused on just writing rules that are cool, fun and reflected the fluff, and quite frankly abandoned all attempts at making the square peg of 40K fit into the round hole of tournament play. If that means the tourney/ultra competitive scene collapses then so be it IMO.

 

Again, I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of competitive balance. This is exactly what points cost attempt to at least curtail.

 

Take the Hammerhead. It has an incredibly powerful gun in its Railgun. This is roughly lore appropriate. Competitively speaking, it might be a little unbalanced (eg, it really hurts Knights in its current form, as they have little defence against them, making a Tau Hammerhead vs Knights match up a little bit of a coinflip) but ultimately, in the wider game balance, they're not overly powerful because they are still relatively fragile (their defensive statline is hardly impressive) and cost a fair amount of points.

 

Competitive balance and loreful, fluffy rules are not mutually exclusive, and your attempt to make it seem that way is, honestly, ridiculous and tiresome.

Edited April 22, 2022 by Kallas

[tychobi]

I think the cost of retooling old molds for the entire trumarine line is the hurdle that even the permasquating subby angels of death can't hop over.   GW does not care about the models you have already bought or how much you love them. They care about the models that you have not bought yet.  Nothing presented here strikes me as evidence of anything. 

 

PS. There is only one kind of game balance.  Competitive players provide better evidence for what is balanced.  No shade and I agree that the lions share of 40k is fun fluffy friendly hammer and that is a good thing.  Fun fluffy friend hammer is ever better when the game is balanced.  The idea that the competitive scene is hurting Warhammer is just plain wrong. 

[Marshal Reinhard]

Not really sure what the point of this thread is... classic marines were never getting 'squatted' (votanned?), outright. They might be removed from the main 40k codex eventually but would always have rules in legends. The model line for its part is getting updated/maintained/lifelined through HH, which goes beyond any of gw's smaller games. How long has it been going now as its own thing?

So both rules and models are safeguarded at different levels from ever being removed.

Edit: so, rather than saying this thread is pointless, my point is just that the answer is a simple 'yes'

Edited April 23, 2022 by Reinhard

[jarms48]

First-born will never disappear entirely. 

 

What I think will happen though, is that all the current 40k old-scale first-born kits will disappear. Then GW will require players to buy the trueborn HH marines to use as First-born in 40k. 

 

It's two-birds-one-stone, just like how daemons are cross compatible with HH, 40k, and AoS. It'll make the model line sell more.

Edited April 24, 2022 by jarms48

[Captain Idaho]

I think it's obvious Primaris are the 40K of the future and Firstborn won't exist there in 10 years but from a memory. Most people don't play Legends so it's not really a substitute.

 

What is funny though is how the Trademarking of Marines in the Heresy works vs Primaris in 40K. Primaris Marines is a trademarked term (not that it stops knock off models but it does help IP with regards to GW's future but that's a different topic) but what's the unique word for HH Marines? They can't call them Firstborn since there's no successors at that point.

[Blindhamster]

possibly the same as chaos marines seem to be now... legionary or astartes legionary or legion marine or something. Maybe they just won't bother. Guess we'll see

[DesuVult]

The idea that firstborn will go away in some capacity being obvious or guarenteed is rather weird to me. To start with that feels like a lot of confidence in knowing what GW is doing years ahead of time on big movements when predictions of factions or large portions of factions getting shelved has a near 0% success rate over the years.

 

Then there is also that marines make money. GW is making brand new firstborn kits for HH, they want to sell those kits and likes to sell kits. Those kits will last around at an absolute minimum of 5 years unless something very big happens. I am basing this on GW's previous actions regarding kits as newer kits tend to not be retired. Watch Captain Artemis for example was recently put on the new GW rotation system. This was considered surprising to many because he seemed rather new. As a 2016 model he is rather new but is still over 5 years old now which puts him in the usual window where GW may consider replacing for marines.

 

Moving all firstborn to Legends would be a big move taking many years to do so unless they want to do it all at once, which would be a rather big model shock. Removing them from standard play and putting them as HH exclusive/Legends would contrast with the current GW scheme of moving HH models to regular 40k play. GW began the process of moving Mechanicum units to the 40k Adeptus Mechanicus roster but was inhibited by a noteworthy death within the company ending the process. GW has moved HH knights to 40k.

 

GW has moved most resin vehicle kits and is reintroducing some HH level technology to infantry models in 40k. The plastic contemptor has been given it's own independent rules entry for 40k and now more HH kits are moving to plastic with the spartan being a large new example.

 

The idea that there is clear evidence of firstborn being removed or moved purely to Legends in 40k is something I really feel I must question. Past GW action foes not seem to support this and if anything seems to indicate the opposite. Relatively new plastic kits like mk III and mk IV are something GW will want to sell as much as possible. The brand new mk VI plastic is likely to be around for quite a few years to come and removing firstborn options from 40k would inhibit their 40k sales. Which to me seems like an odd choice given GW loves money. It would be like limiting daemon options between games to a notable degree.

[Captain Idaho]

No it's not knowing what GW is doing in the future, it's knowing what they're doing now. The recent fluff has nothing vut Primaris in it, the models are all Primaris and even the characters are being replaced into Primaris. Some sculpts unnecessarily so (new Calgar is poorer in pose and looks than Terminator Calgar for example though Mephiston is a brilliant model and needed it etc).

 

You can even walk into a store and see nothing but Primaris, bar Terminators and some vehicles. If I was new I wouldn't even know Firstborn were a thing...

 

Look at it this way; if you need to come up with excuses for GW's repeated actions to marginalise and replace Primaris, then it points to the facts as we as consumers should take them.

[DesuVult]

No it's not knowing what GW is doing in the future, it's knowing what they're doing now. The recent fluff has nothing vut Primaris in it, the models are all Primaris and even the characters are being replaced into Primaris. Some sculpts unnecessarily so (new Calgar is poorer in pose and looks than Terminator Calgar for example though Mephiston is a brilliant model and needed it etc).

 

You can even walk into a store and see nothing but Primaris, bar Terminators and some vehicles. If I was new I wouldn't even know Firstborn were a thing...

 

Look at it this way; if you need to come up with excuses for GW's repeated actions to marginalise and replace Primaris, then it points to the facts as we as consumers should take them.

When I go into a store it is mostly primaris but far from all. If that is what stores near you are like I assume it depends on location some. As for books the new big series seems to be Dawn of Fire which has a mix of firstborn and primaris characters among marines. Edited April 24, 2022 by DesuVult

[Marshal Reinhard]

I don't think anyone doubts that Primaris is the future of marines in 40k. Like I alluded to in my previous post, I think classic marines might eventually be trimmed out of the 40k codex. But that's not the same as them being blotted out of existence entirely. They in fact have their entirely own game system (sprinkled with some minor seasoning of other 30k factions) to keep them around.

 

They might be dropped from the latest book in the 40k game system, but not the 40k setting.

Edited April 24, 2022 by Reinhard

[Metzombie]

No it's not knowing what GW is doing in the future, it's knowing what they're doing now. The recent fluff has nothing vut Primaris in it,

That is not true at all. The last book of the Dawn of Fire series "Wulftime" has mostly firstborns in it. We have a newish codex for Grey Knighst exclusiv with firstborn.

[Kallas]

The idea that firstborn will go away in some capacity being obvious or guarenteed is rather weird to me. To start with that feels like a lot of confidence in knowing what GW is doing years ahead of time on big movements when predictions of factions or large portions of factions getting shelved has a near 0% success rate over the years.

 

[...]

The idea that there is clear evidence of firstborn being removed or moved purely to Legends in 40k is something I really feel I must question. Past GW action foes not seem to support this and if anything seems to indicate the opposite. Relatively new plastic kits like mk III and mk IV are something GW will want to sell as much as possible. The brand new mk VI plastic is likely to be around for quite a few years to come and removing firstborn options from 40k would inhibit their 40k sales. Which to me seems like an odd choice given GW loves money. It would be like limiting daemon options between games to a notable degree.

 

No it's not knowing what GW is doing in the future, it's knowing what they're doing now. The recent fluff has nothing vut Primaris in it, the models are all Primaris and even the characters are being replaced into Primaris. Some sculpts unnecessarily so (new Calgar is poorer in pose and looks than Terminator Calgar for example though Mephiston is a brilliant model and needed it etc).

 

To add to this, I just looked back through the current SM Codex for Firstborn images. It is incredibly rare to see artwork or models of Firstborn except in their Datasheet portraits. The overwhelming majority of images depict Primaris - there are a few Firstborn images, often older artwork from previous editions, with next to no new images of Firstborn.

 

Model-wise, there are no pictures of groups of models that lack Primaris; there are many pictures of purely Primaris, excluding Firstborn entirely.

 

This is an obvious push away from Firstborn. The HH kits are just that: Horus Heresy products. They are for a separate game - sure, they have the capacity to carry over and exist in 40k, but there is no obligation for GW to do that, and with such a heavy focus on Primaris it kind of is inevitable.

 

There are things like, "Oh they love money so they won't stop selling them" that entirely misses how much control GW does actually have over how people spend money. Marketing is a very powerful tool, even when people hate stuff like pop-up ads and billboards and weird car ads: it still works. So GW can push Primaris by making sure that you see Primaris everywhere, but you won't see Firstborn very much.

 

This is how they are doing WHFB->AoS, but much less stupidly. They're purging it gradually, bit by bit. They don't want the same kind of outcry, they want to secure that revenue stream by embedding Primaris firmly in most peoples' minds as the Marines and then slowly phase out Firstborn.

 

They might be dropped from the latest book in the 40k game system, but not the 40k setting.

 

Ultimately, this will result in the same thing. Once Firstborn shrink into the shadows in Legends, once their rules fall behind being even vaguely competitive, once no lore is released, while more 'new and exciting' Primaris kits that are totally different to Firstborn units are released and made the core of the Astartes line...Firstborn will get relegated to history.

 

A lot of people complain about tournaments, but they do give a decent barometer of local (and for bigger events, regional, or even global) trends on what players are playing. Not everyone who goes to a tournament is a WAAC, cutthroat gamer. A lot will just want an organised event to play a bunch of games - I've gone to tournaments knowing full well I won't do very well, but focused on having some strong games against others in the lower brackets, and these people have some great fun. With the pressure of winning the event gone, people relax a bit.

 

So with Firstborn slowly getting pushed away from the forefront of the Marine line, they'll slowly get pushed away from the competitive side of things...and people will slowly lose interest in bringing armies that just get pulped, even on those lower tables.

[phandaal]

No it's not knowing what GW is doing in the future, it's knowing what they're doing now. The recent fluff has nothing vut Primaris in it, the models are all Primaris and even the characters are being replaced into Primaris. Some sculpts unnecessarily so (new Calgar is poorer in pose and looks than Terminator Calgar for example though Mephiston is a brilliant model and needed it etc).

 

You can even walk into a store and see nothing but Primaris, bar Terminators and some vehicles. If I was new I wouldn't even know Firstborn were a thing...

 

Look at it this way; if you need to come up with excuses for GW's repeated actions to marginalise and replace Primaris, then it points to the facts as we as consumers should take them.

Primaris are the Space Marine range refresh, so eventually that is where it will go. Never had a problem with new models myself. Basic Primaris helmets are boring to me compared to Mk7, but that is an easy swap.

 

Personally, I am hoping that GW just drops the whole "Firstborn vs Primaris" stuff from newer stories, lore, and rules. Then we get a Space Marine book with just Space Marines again, and then models can stay or not without making it a battle that never needed to happen.

 

This may sound like I am expecting GW to retcon Primaris out of existence, but really I would like to just have it be ignored. New Space Marines are "Primaris," veteran Space Marines are not, and we can get back to having stories about transhuman soldiers doing transhuman stuff instead of the twentieth retelling of Sergeant Oldhammer being jealous of Lieutenant Primarius' muscle coils.

Edited April 24, 2022 by phandaal

[Brother Tyler]

I think that the implication of the topic title is misleading. "Forever" is a bad word to use. As long as Games Workshop supports the Horus Heresy setting, we'll have Firstborn. Similarly, if GW (or Forge World) decide to publish "historical" campaigns (pre-Primaris), we'll have Firstborn. If GW ever decides to stop publishing products that are pre-Ultima Founding, they might eventually stop supporting Firstborn (beyond Legends). I have a bunch of Harlequins (and other models) that are no longer valid (e.g., power fists, power axes, etc.). Granted, Harlequins aren't the cash cow that Space Marines are, but there are plenty of precedents in WH40K for older models in ranges no longer being valid. GW will have criteria triggering such a decision, most likely based on revenue. This is no different from other business models (for example, I don't expect Chevrolet to keep making parts for my 1975 K5 Blazer).

In the meantime, the re-sizing of Firstborn is a great thing.

If GW ever decides to drop support for Firstborn, I wouldn't have a problem with hobbyists using those models as Primaris in games against me (as long as weapon/wargear representation is reasonable).

Personally, though, I have a figurative mountain of Firstborn in my pile of shame, so I hope that GW continues to support them for a long time to come. Meanwhile, I think the Primaris models are a definite improvement and I have a small mound of them in my pile of shame.

[Captain Idaho]

Oh for sure; speaking as a Firstborn fan, it's undeniable the improvement that Primaris have brought to the hobby in terms of stances and proportions. Sure there are aesthetic issues that are subjective, but the models themselves are mostly great.

 

(I think overall GW is getting too big with many of their models, which to me is the biggest flaw with not just Primaris but all models. Not sure why really, but to me it just makes transportation a little more difficult. )

Edited April 24, 2022 by Captain Idaho

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

The idea that firstborn will go away in some capacity being obvious or guarenteed is rather weird to me. To start with that feels like a lot of confidence in knowing what GW is doing years ahead of time on big movements when predictions of factions or large portions of factions getting shelved has a near 0% success rate over the years.

 

Then there is also that marines make money. GW is making brand new firstborn kits for HH, they want to sell those kits and likes to sell kits. Those kits will last around at an absolute minimum of 5 years unless something very big happens. I am basing this on GW's previous actions regarding kits as newer kits tend to not be retired. Watch Captain Artemis for example was recently put on the new GW rotation system. This was considered surprising to many because he seemed rather new. As a 2016 model he is rather new but is still over 5 years old now which puts him in the usual window where GW may consider replacing for marines.

 

Moving all firstborn to Legends would be a big move taking many years to do so unless they want to do it all at once, which would be a rather big model shock. Removing them from standard play and putting them as HH exclusive/Legends would contrast with the current GW scheme of moving HH models to regular 40k play. GW began the process of moving Mechanicum units to the 40k Adeptus Mechanicus roster but was inhibited by a noteworthy death within the company ending the process. GW has moved HH knights to 40k.

 

GW has moved most resin vehicle kits and is reintroducing some HH level technology to infantry models in 40k. The plastic contemptor has been given it's own independent rules entry for 40k and now more HH kits are moving to plastic with the spartan being a large new example.

 

The idea that there is clear evidence of firstborn being removed or moved purely to Legends in 40k is something I really feel I must question. Past GW action foes not seem to support this and if anything seems to indicate the opposite. Relatively new plastic kits like mk III and mk IV are something GW will want to sell as much as possible. The brand new mk VI plastic is likely to be around for quite a few years to come and removing firstborn options from 40k would inhibit their 40k sales. Which to me seems like an odd choice given GW loves money. It would be like limiting daemon options between games to a notable degree.

HH is not 40k. Firstborn have a an expiration date in 40k.

As long HH is a thing firstborn kits will be made for HH, but for 40k their time seems quite clearly limited unless there’s some massive boycott of primaris kits in the next few years.

[TheNewman]

A lot of people complain about tournaments, but they do give a decent barometer of local (and for bigger events, regional, or even global) trends on what players are playing. Not everyone who goes to a tournament is a WAAC, cutthroat gamer. A lot will just want an organised event to play a bunch of games - I've gone to tournaments knowing full well I won't do very well, but focused on having some strong games against others in the lower brackets, and these people have some great fun. With the pressure of winning the event gone, people relax a bit.

 

So with Firstborn slowly getting pushed away from the forefront of the Marine line, they'll slowly get pushed away from the competitive side of things...and people will slowly lose interest in bringing armies that just get pulped, even on those lower tables.

I know it's been said before but this is just not an argument that seems to holds water.

 

I don't think it's fair to bring up units like Vanguard Veterans where there is no equivalent Primaris unit because the operative word there is "yet", but there are quite a few places where you can make close comparisons and the Primaris units are not always coming out on top of those.

[Kallas]

 

A lot of people complain about tournaments, but they do give a decent barometer of local (and for bigger events, regional, or even global) trends on what players are playing. Not everyone who goes to a tournament is a WAAC, cutthroat gamer. A lot will just want an organised event to play a bunch of games - I've gone to tournaments knowing full well I won't do very well, but focused on having some strong games against others in the lower brackets, and these people have some great fun. With the pressure of winning the event gone, people relax a bit.

 

So with Firstborn slowly getting pushed away from the forefront of the Marine line, they'll slowly get pushed away from the competitive side of things...and people will slowly lose interest in bringing armies that just get pulped, even on those lower tables.

I know it's been said before but this is just not an argument that seems to holds water.

 

I don't think it's fair to bring up units like Vanguard Veterans where there is no equivalent Primaris unit because the operative word there is "yet", but there are quite a few places where you can make close comparisons and the Primaris units are not always coming out on top of those.

 

Did you mean to quote someone else, because I didn't mention Vanguard Veterans??

 

As for Primaris coming out on top of Firstborn, yeah, that doesn't always pan out. I don't think that's what GW wants right now - but I do believe it's how it's going to go (mostly) as the Primaris/Firstborn divide grows (eg, as more Firstborn go to Legends and new Primaris units release). The initial goal is to establish Primaris: make everyone get used to them, even if they don't care for them; push the Primaris by giving them infinitely more media (eg, pictures, artwork) and models (ie, Primaris are getting releases; Firstborn are not); then a slow ratcheting of rules to support Primaris over Firstborn (eg, Transhuman Physiology is now Primaris-only when it used to be any; Honour of the Chapter is now limited to a Primaris unit only, etc); once that stuff is firmly embedded, they can do a gradual push to remove Firstborn.

 

From a business point of view, I can't blame them, it would make sense to do this because it lets them direct (if not control) where the Marine player's attention is, thus letting them maximise the profits off of their new line. It's an understandable course of action - not that I have to like it.

[TheNewman]

No I wasn't meaning to quote someone else, but this has come up before and units like VVs usually get brought up. I don't think that makes sense.

 

I think if you're addressing whether GW is pushing Primaris with the game rules then it only makes sense to compare the places where there are units in direct competition for a given role.

 

Pushing Primaris with the art/lore is a whole different question.

[Kallas]

No I wasn't meaning to quote someone else, but this has come up before and units like VVs usually get brought up. I don't think that makes sense.

 

I think if you're addressing whether GW is pushing Primaris with the game rules then it only makes sense to compare the places where there are units in direct competition for a given role.

 

Pushing Primaris with the art/lore is a whole different question.

 

GW are pushing Primaris. It's not a simple 'rules only' thing. If you think it is, then there's nothing left to discuss.

 

Part of the problem is that they're not making the same WHFB->AoS mistake, they're doing it gradually and they're doing it 'better' than that. By making Primaris the absolute focal point in every way (models, lore, images/artwork) then they are pushing Primaris. Primaris aren't dominant in rules, and that's partly by design - it's better for them to not do that because if they did then people would have an even more concrete example of how they're pushing things.

 

There are some strong Primaris units (eg, Redemptors, Plasma Inceptors) and there are some that are weak. Primaris are not super high overall, but then Marines in general aren't (AoC might help), but to posit that simply because Primaris don't have completely dominant rules compared to Firstborn right now means that GW are definitely not pushing Primaris is, quite frankly, naive.

 

Seriously. Look at the Marine stuff that GW puts out, what is it? If it's not Horus Heresy, it's Primaris. Primaris models, Primaris-focused books, Primaris art. Everything Marine is Primaris with the occasional Firstborn thrown in to the background of one or two images. GW is pushing Primaris, they're just not doing it in one big move, they're doing it slowly.

 

Edit: As a note, there absolutely are direct replacement units: Stormspeeders, Outriders and ATVs are perfect examples of Primaris units that are 100% directly competing with Firstborn units (Land Speeders, Bikers and Attack Bikes respectively). Just because GW isn't quite dumb enough to do this with every unit simultaneously, it doesn't mean that GW isn't pushing Primaris.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Kallas

[DesuVult]

GW is doing a bad job of pushing primaris in a lot of locations. Like in novels we are still seeing hefty firstborn presence with some new novels being predominately firstborn. In terms of rules primaris tend to have a gimmick unit or two able to compete but usually firstborn prop up the army with consistent mainstays like vanguard veterans. Eradicators are a current big primaris unit with their double shoot but even they fell to the wayside some time ago and we are in the era of terminator armor now. The ATVs were another unit that stood out for as long as their gimmick allowed until it was FAQed. I think it is just Black Templars that really count on their primaris units. Redemptors are solid in some places managing to out compete contemptors but I feel more chapters prefer contemptors overall.

[phandaal]

GW is doing a bad job of pushing primaris in a lot of locations. Like in novels we are still seeing hefty firstborn presence with some new novels being predominately firstborn. In terms of rules primaris tend to have a gimmick unit or two able to compete but usually firstborn prop up the army with consistent mainstays like vanguard veterans. Eradicators are a current big primaris unit with their double shoot but even they fell to the wayside some time ago and we are in the era of terminator armor now. The ATVs were another unit that stood out for as long as their gimmick allowed until it was FAQed. I think it is just Black Templars that really count on their primaris units. Redemptors are solid in some places managing to out compete contemptors but I feel more chapters prefer contemptors overall.

 

We are probably seeing the delayed results of a change in direction from "WFB End Times: 40k Edition" to "New Era in 40k."

 

My guess is we will see Space Marines become Space Marines again, although the Primaris title will stick around for the almighty copyright.

 

There will be a reduction in overall units, "Firstborn" will be long-serving veterans who have not crossed the Rubicon, "Primaris" will be the rest. Something along those lines.