Possible evidence that Firstborn could stick around forever.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

GW is doing a bad job of pushing primaris in a lot of locations. Like in novels we are still seeing hefty firstborn presence with some new novels being predominately firstborn. In terms of rules primaris tend to have a gimmick unit or two able to compete but usually firstborn prop up the army with consistent mainstays like vanguard veterans. Eradicators are a current big primaris unit with their double shoot but even they fell to the wayside some time ago and we are in the era of terminator armor now. The ATVs were another unit that stood out for as long as their gimmick allowed until it was FAQed. I think it is just Black Templars that really count on their primaris units. Redemptors are solid in some places managing to out compete contemptors but I feel more chapters prefer contemptors overall.

they really aren’t.

This is still a transitory period, so of course some firstborn units will still be mainstays, and it will take hundreds of years if not a millennium for firstborn to be completely or near completely replaced in the lore, so yes in the transitionary period a few decades to a century after primaris were revealed to the galaxy there will still be plenty of chapters that are 75%+ firstborn and many many more that are mixed, and more yet that are pure primaris.

 

The fact that they nearly wiped out the BA and successors and rebuilt them as primaris chapters with token firstborn veterans and leadership(and even some of that leadership is crossing the rubicon) is a perfect analogy for where marines are at now. Very soon all firstborn sons of sanguinius will either be dead or cross the rubicon.

 

When the ‘primaris’ assault marines are released they will likely fill the same role that VGVs fill, and they will likely do so much better…why? To encourage sales of the new kit. There’s also rumors of a primaris terminator replacement.

 

GW has made it clear they’re not concerned with pricing people out of the game so why would they not phase out the cheaper kits in favor newer more expensive kits that make them more money? Just from a business standpoint it makes no sense to keep firstborn around indefinitely.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Kallas]

When the ‘primaris’ assault marines are released they will likely fill the same role that VGVs fill, and they will likely do so much better…why? To encourage sales of the new kit. There’s also rumors of a primaris terminator replacement.

 

This. Take a look at Bladeguard compared to a similarly equipped unit (Vanguard). Vanguard get more options, but if you equip them in the same way, they're straight up worse in every way: fewer attacks at a lower Damage; fewer wounds; a worse no Bolt Pistol.

 

Sure, the Firstborn Vanguard definitely have the edge, because they have options (and Jump Packs), but as more Primaris units release, these gaps get filled. And we know that GW are perfectly willing to release Primaris units with direct Firstborn counterparts.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Kallas

[TheNewman]

Edit: As a note, there absolutely are direct replacement units: Stormspeeders, Outriders and ATVs are perfect examples of Primaris units that are 100% directly competing with Firstborn units (Land Speeders, Bikers and Attack Bikes respectively). Just because GW isn't quite dumb enough to do this with every unit simultaneously, it doesn't mean that GW isn't pushing Primaris.

I'd argue that only Outriders vs Bikes is correct there, Invaders are a direct competitor to Land Speeders; they're big enough to draw real AT fire, incapable of being mixed into other units, carry a mix of anti-infantry and AT weapons, and are pretty close in price-point.

 

Stormspeeders are clearly thematically Landspeeders++, but they're nowhere near as flexible or durable and also not even really as good against their preferred targets.

 

Take a look at Bladeguard compared to a similarly equipped unit (Vanguard). Vanguard get more options, but if you equip them in the same way, they're straight up worse in every way: fewer attacks at a lower Damage; fewer wounds; a worse no Bolt Pistol.

 

Sure, the Firstborn Vanguard definitely have the edge, because they have options (and Jump Packs), but as more Primaris units release, these gaps get filled. And we know that GW are perfectly willing to release Primaris units with direct Firstborn counterparts.

I don't think that's the right comparison, for similar reasons. The unit closest to Bladeguard in terms of actual battlefield role is probably Assault Terminators.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

Edit: As a note, there absolutely are direct replacement units: Stormspeeders, Outriders and ATVs are perfect examples of Primaris units that are 100% directly competing with Firstborn units (Land Speeders, Bikers and Attack Bikes respectively). Just because GW isn't quite dumb enough to do this with every unit simultaneously, it doesn't mean that GW isn't pushing Primaris.

I'd argue that only Outriders vs Bikes is correct there, Invaders are a direct competitor to Land Speeders; they're big enough to draw real AT fire, incapable of being mixed into other units, carry a mix of anti-infantry and AT weapons, and are pretty close in price-point.

 

Stormspeeders are clearly thematically Landspeeders++, but they're nowhere near as flexible or durable and also not even really as good against their preferred targets.

 

Take a look at Bladeguard compared to a similarly equipped unit (Vanguard). Vanguard get more options, but if you equip them in the same way, they're straight up worse in every way: fewer attacks at a lower Damage; fewer wounds; a worse no Bolt Pistol.

 

Sure, the Firstborn Vanguard definitely have the edge, because they have options (and Jump Packs), but as more Primaris units release, these gaps get filled. And we know that GW are perfectly willing to release Primaris units with direct Firstborn counterparts.

I don't think that's the right comparison, for similar reasons. The unit closest to Bladeguard in terms of actual battlefield role is probably Assault Terminators.

how exactly are stormspeeders less flexible than landspeeders?

[DesuVult]

Land speeders are capable of performing a handful of missions using speed, low cost, and weapon variety, even showing up in actual competitive lists on occasion.

 

Storm speeders are mostly good at dying to things you wouldn't think should kill them that easily.

Edited April 27, 2022 by DesuVult

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Land speeders are capable of performing a handful of missions using speed, low cost, and weapon variety, even showing up in actual competitive lists on occasion.

 

Storm speeders are mostly good at dying to things you wouldn't think should kill them that easily.

stormspeeders can perform a handful of missions, there is 3 different stormspeeder loadouts to pick from, and if they’re dying super easily you’re probably misusing them or getting very unlucky with them.

Hopefully they’ll be costed more appropriately in the next dex whenever that comes out.

[Orange Knight]

Land speeders are capable of performing a handful of missions using speed, low cost, and weapon variety, even showing up in actual competitive lists on occasion.

 

Storm speeders are mostly good at dying to things you wouldn't think should kill them that easily.

Land-Speeders die even more easily, and have less variety of weapons than the Storm-Speeders, so I'm not sure how you've formed your conclusion?

 

There is the LS storm variant, I suppose?

[WrathOfTheLion]

They're more tactically versatile, by virtue of costing less and being more dispersed because of that. Quantity has a quality of its own in this case.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

Land speeders are capable of performing a handful of missions using speed, low cost, and weapon variety, even showing up in actual competitive lists on occasion.

 

Storm speeders are mostly good at dying to things you wouldn't think should kill them that easily.

Land-Speeders die even more easily, and have less variety of weapons than the Storm-Speeders, so I'm not sure how you've formed your conclusion?

 

There is the LS storm variant, I suppose?

I think he means because you can choose between a MM or an HB

[WrathOfTheLion]

Or add missiles, or an assault cannon?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Or add missiles, or an assault cannon?

yes stormspeeders are 3 different datasheets but they shouldn’t be.

Want melta? Hammerstrike, want a rotary cannon? Hailstrike.

Want a missile launcher thunderstrike.

 

And the thunder is arguably better than all the other speeders due to it’s BS2+

Edited April 27, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[WrathOfTheLion]

Land speeders are also three different datasheets.

 

Can't not include the Typhoon and Tornado variants and loadouts if we're including all the Storm Speeder ones.

Edited April 27, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Land speeders are also three different datasheets.

 

Can't not include the Typhoon and Tornado variants and loadouts if we're including all the Storm Speeder ones.

no one was leaving any variant of landspeeder out?

[DesuVult]

Land speeders dying easily doesn't matter if they complete their mission. What mission are you tasking a storm speeders to do it can reasonably accomplish? The hammerstrike doesn't even kill an eldar transport on average. Hailstrike is 16+d6 mid-strength low AP shots, it might kill two marines through AoC. The thunderstrike has 3 shots at d6 damage each.

 

For half the cost you can get 2 melta shots instead of 3. You aren't as durable but we are comparing tissue paper to regular paper in a rain storm with the new armies rolling out. Other variants generally aren't doing too much to kill on their own but you can take them at about half the cost of a storm speeder so have options to be in the way and help scoring secondaries, even dropping off scouts. Land speeders can even have a speed advantage.

 

Storm speeders have an advantage over land speeders in the area of 3 wounds and some guns that aren't actually good at killing anything at the cost over like 50+ points in an armt suffering from paying a tax on too many units already when trying to score.

 

 

The thunderstrike is a joke that takes 3 turns to kill a predator on average and struggles with light vehicles.

[Orange Knight]

Astartes vehicles are overpriced and underpowered in general, we are all aware of that.

 

That's a different point from the one made earlier, about an apparent lack of variety. The Storm-speeder kit has more weapon variety than the Land-speeder.

 

But I agree that we need a new codex that can help by giving vehicles a boost. I might make a separate topic about how I think the various units can be improved.

[Aurica]

I wanted to say you are wishful thinking but... I also have a huge collection of fireborns.  So I am biased and hope you are right.    As long as my collection doesn't get turn into LEGENDS, that is all i am asking for now....

[Orange Knight]

I wanted to say you are wishful thinking but... I also have a huge collection of fireborns. So I am biased and hope you are right. As long as my collection doesn't get turn into LEGENDS, that is all i am asking for now....

I don't think this will happen. What I would like to see is a consolidation of datasheets and a re-working of some units. They could probably knock about 10-15 datasheet pages (or more) from the next codex without actually losing anything.

 

That being said, if GW continues to separate the two types of Marines with keyword limitations, then separating them in different books might be best.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

I wanted to say you are wishful thinking but... I also have a huge collection of fireborns. So I am biased and hope you are right. As long as my collection doesn't get turn into LEGENDS, that is all i am asking for now....

I don't think this will happen. What I would like to see is a consolidation of datasheets and a re-working of some units. They could probably knock about 10-15 datasheet pages (or more) from the next codex without actually losing anything.

 

That being said, if GW continues to separate the two types of Marines with keyword limitations, then separating them in different books might be best.

they just need to stop separating very similar primaris units into separate datasheets and they’d solve the bloat issue.

[DesuVult]

I expect some consolidation to happen and the primaris keyword to be dropped with primaris being a bit of a side lore thing.

 

For example, right now we have assault intercessors, heavy intercessors, and intercessors. My expectation is that GW will make intercessors into "Tactical Intercessors" drop the tactical marine datasheet, and release a kill team with most of the guns tacticals can take.

 

With so many firstborn models available in HH those models won't be going away and pushing a lot of still in production models to Legends would hurt consumer confidence. MkIII/IV/VI kits will have a thing on the website saying they can also be used as tactical intercessors in warhammer 40,000. Assault marines will be folded into assault intercessors and assault intercessors will get a jump pack upgrade sprue or something.

 

Lots of HQs will be folded together and some HH options added in like more neo-volkite.

 

Some stuff is pretty up in the air to me like if hellblasters are folded into devestators. I fully expect a WarCom article poking fun at how with the change primaris models will now be able to fit in spartans.

 

There will be some whining with people saying they are sad over how assault marines are gone even though assault marines have been garbage for most of their existence and should have been made troops long ago or the major lore importance of how they should be kept seperate even though almost all the datasheets will remain seperate because most primaris units aren't near enough the same as a firstborn equivalent.

[Orange Knight]

I think there is absolutely no chance that GW will ever fold any Primaris unit into a classic unit's datasheet. This will simply never happen.

 

They should, however, consolidate units across both ranges.

 

Is there a reason why Assault Intercessors can't be rolled into the Intercessor datasheet? The bolt pistol and chainsword can be an option that a whole unit can opt to take, replacing the bolt rifle.

 

The same applies for Infiltrators and Incursors, the Gladiator Tanks, the Storm Speeders, the multiple Captain datasheets and so on.

 

The same consolidation can be done with the Landraider variants, all Terminators, all Veteran units (Sternguard and Vanguard included), so on and so forth. They should also retire some redundant units to Legends.

 

This would really help with cleaning up the codex.

[TheNewman]

A lot of conversation happened while I wasn't in a position to comment, so let me clarify some things.

 

When I say the Landspeeder is more versatile I mean it can take a split loadout to engage a wider variety of target types. There are more weapons in the Stormspeeder kit but it's limited to three specialized loadouts that are each only good on a single target.

 

Two Stormspeeders either can be better at anti-tank or at anti-infantry than three Landspeeders but awful at the other job, or do both jobs worse.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

A lot of conversation happened while I wasn't in a position to comment, so let me clarify some things.

 

When I say the Landspeeder is more versatile I mean it can take a split loadout to engage a wider variety of target types. There are more weapons in the Stormspeeder kit but it's limited to three specialized loadouts that are each only good on a single target.

 

Two Stormspeeders either can be better at anti-tank or at anti-infantry than three Landspeeders but awful at the other job, or do both jobs worse.

I guess being able to split between targets is more versatile technically but if you split between the two you won’t be very good at either.

[Kallas]

When I say the Landspeeder is more versatile I mean it can take a split loadout to engage a wider variety of target types. There are more weapons in the Stormspeeder kit but it's limited to three specialized loadouts that are each only good on a single target.

 

Two Stormspeeders either can be better at anti-tank or at anti-infantry than three Landspeeders but awful at the other job, or do both jobs worse.

 

Right.

But Stormspeeders still directly compete with Land Speeders: they are a Primaris unit introduced with an identical role on the battlefield (ie, fast moving with high firepower vehicle). Whether it does that job well is kind of irrelevant: the point is that it is a direct unit-for-unit comparison, despite "Firstborn sticking around forever" being the thread and (ostensibly) GW's stance.

 

By introducing such a directly comparable unit, it definitely weakens the argument that Primaris aren't here to replace Firstborn.

[Orange Knight]

They aren't direct replacements in terms of replicating function exactly, but Primaris will eventually have units that fill every role that the Firstborn Marines could perform. This goes without saying.

[TheNewman]

 

 

When I say the Landspeeder is more versatile I mean it can take a split loadout to engage a wider variety of target types. There are more weapons in the Stormspeeder kit but it's limited to three specialized loadouts that are each only good on a single target.

 

Two Stormspeeders either can be better at anti-tank or at anti-infantry than three Landspeeders but awful at the other job, or do both jobs worse.

Right.

But Stormspeeders still directly compete with Land Speeders: they are a Primaris unit introduced with an identical role on the battlefield (ie, fast moving with high firepower vehicle). Whether it does that job well is kind of irrelevant: the point is that it is a direct unit-for-unit comparison, despite "Firstborn sticking around forever" being the thread and (ostensibly) GW's stance.

 

By introducing such a directly comparable unit, it definitely weakens the argument that Primaris aren't here to replace Firstborn.

Right.

 

Except that wasn't my argument. My argument was that Landspeeders are a non-degrading light vehicle squadron capable of engaging a variety of targets, and the Primaris unit most directly competing for it's particular niche is the Invader ATV. The Stormspeeder looks more like the Landspeeder but the Invader acts more like it.