Possible evidence that Firstborn could stick around forever.

[DesuVult]

 

A big problem with retiring firstborn I keep coming back to is the business side and that this decision would have to have already been made and explained to business side people multiple times. On that I just struggle to see it work well. I can practically hear some of the questions asked. Like what the customer overlap is and what the expected customer loss is.

 

If firstborn are dropped from 40k they would still be on the webstore for 30k. They are still being produced, still taking up shelf space in stores and in storage, master molds are still being produced and maintained, SKU are still being maintained. Grey Knights will be resized eventually and someone will ask why the CAD files cannot be reused. The rhino will still be produced and sold in 40k for CSM and SoBs just excluded from LSM.

 

There will be 40k players who exist in an area who like the 30k marine aesthetic like beakies but there isn't a 30k community in the area so their 30k purchases will limited. Someone will spot that demographic and want to target it because hooking that individual means potentially hooking contacts of that individual.

 

Savings look pretty minimal, some firstborn kits in 40k are removed like vanguard veterans, thunderwolf cavalry, and centurions and you save some page space by removing firstborn options from the codex but while those savings would add up the question would be posed about the offset from customer loss.

 

Any time a business does anything it will lose some customers, there may be a net gain but some are lost. People will want to know expected net customer gain or lose compared to expected savings and long term revenue and profit changes. Cutting firstborn mostly seems to be savings from needing fewer pages in the codex and models produced but with HH coming to plastic it doesn't seem like there will actually be a huge net change in firstborn kits. GW has also not been taking measures to reduce codex size and has even bragged about codex size recently. GW seems to like larger books when they can be sold for a premium, limited edition books produced at GW's scale, price point, and sale speed are something many companies would salivate over.

 

I keep trying to do some idea of the business calculus and I just don't see it. I feel anyone particularly conservative running the numbers would be hard opposed to it over the risk of customer lose and long term sales concerns.

 

Then there is also the range rotation system they have created. Not only does it have most of the benefits of retiring the model but allows them to bring the model out periodically to spark FOMO within their community. Even in more GW averse communities you see people hate on MTO range rotation models only to get the ones they want the most. It would give them on last sale opportunity for models shifted to the new HH scale.

 

We have seen one plastic mkII HH body as crew for the spartan. It can be expected to see mk II as a full release at some point down the line. Due to the similarities to mkIII GW can shift mkIII to range rotation if they are not selling sufficiently and then later down the line use the mkII CAD files to make mkIII in the new HH scale as a cheap filler for a new release.

 

Maintaining many of the kits and even keeping them on the webstore to sell in other games but just not selling them to LSM players feels like such a weird business decision I cannot get my head around.

GW has shown pretty clearly that they don’t actually give a :cuss about its players.

Sure there will be some lost players but most of those will likely just go to 30k, amounting in very little actual loss of players

Little player loss is still more than 0 which is lost revenue.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

A big problem with retiring firstborn I keep coming back to is the business side and that this decision would have to have already been made and explained to business side people multiple times. On that I just struggle to see it work well. I can practically hear some of the questions asked. Like what the customer overlap is and what the expected customer loss is.

 

If firstborn are dropped from 40k they would still be on the webstore for 30k. They are still being produced, still taking up shelf space in stores and in storage, master molds are still being produced and maintained, SKU are still being maintained. Grey Knights will be resized eventually and someone will ask why the CAD files cannot be reused. The rhino will still be produced and sold in 40k for CSM and SoBs just excluded from LSM.

 

There will be 40k players who exist in an area who like the 30k marine aesthetic like beakies but there isn't a 30k community in the area so their 30k purchases will limited. Someone will spot that demographic and want to target it because hooking that individual means potentially hooking contacts of that individual.

 

Savings look pretty minimal, some firstborn kits in 40k are removed like vanguard veterans, thunderwolf cavalry, and centurions and you save some page space by removing firstborn options from the codex but while those savings would add up the question would be posed about the offset from customer loss.

 

Any time a business does anything it will lose some customers, there may be a net gain but some are lost. People will want to know expected net customer gain or lose compared to expected savings and long term revenue and profit changes. Cutting firstborn mostly seems to be savings from needing fewer pages in the codex and models produced but with HH coming to plastic it doesn't seem like there will actually be a huge net change in firstborn kits. GW has also not been taking measures to reduce codex size and has even bragged about codex size recently. GW seems to like larger books when they can be sold for a premium, limited edition books produced at GW's scale, price point, and sale speed are something many companies would salivate over.

 

I keep trying to do some idea of the business calculus and I just don't see it. I feel anyone particularly conservative running the numbers would be hard opposed to it over the risk of customer lose and long term sales concerns.

 

Then there is also the range rotation system they have created. Not only does it have most of the benefits of retiring the model but allows them to bring the model out periodically to spark FOMO within their community. Even in more GW averse communities you see people hate on MTO range rotation models only to get the ones they want the most. It would give them on last sale opportunity for models shifted to the new HH scale.

 

We have seen one plastic mkII HH body as crew for the spartan. It can be expected to see mk II as a full release at some point down the line. Due to the similarities to mkIII GW can shift mkIII to range rotation if they are not selling sufficiently and then later down the line use the mkII CAD files to make mkIII in the new HH scale as a cheap filler for a new release.

 

Maintaining many of the kits and even keeping them on the webstore to sell in other games but just not selling them to LSM players feels like such a weird business decision I cannot get my head around.

GW has shown pretty clearly that they don’t actually give a :cuss about its players.

Sure there will be some lost players but most of those will likely just go to 30k, amounting in very little actual loss of players

Little player loss is still more than 0 which is lost revenue.

which is offset by new players.

[DesuVult]

 

 

 

A big problem with retiring firstborn I keep coming back to is the business side and that this decision would have to have already been made and explained to business side people multiple times. On that I just struggle to see it work well. I can practically hear some of the questions asked. Like what the customer overlap is and what the expected customer loss is.

 

If firstborn are dropped from 40k they would still be on the webstore for 30k. They are still being produced, still taking up shelf space in stores and in storage, master molds are still being produced and maintained, SKU are still being maintained. Grey Knights will be resized eventually and someone will ask why the CAD files cannot be reused. The rhino will still be produced and sold in 40k for CSM and SoBs just excluded from LSM.

 

There will be 40k players who exist in an area who like the 30k marine aesthetic like beakies but there isn't a 30k community in the area so their 30k purchases will limited. Someone will spot that demographic and want to target it because hooking that individual means potentially hooking contacts of that individual.

 

Savings look pretty minimal, some firstborn kits in 40k are removed like vanguard veterans, thunderwolf cavalry, and centurions and you save some page space by removing firstborn options from the codex but while those savings would add up the question would be posed about the offset from customer loss.

 

Any time a business does anything it will lose some customers, there may be a net gain but some are lost. People will want to know expected net customer gain or lose compared to expected savings and long term revenue and profit changes. Cutting firstborn mostly seems to be savings from needing fewer pages in the codex and models produced but with HH coming to plastic it doesn't seem like there will actually be a huge net change in firstborn kits. GW has also not been taking measures to reduce codex size and has even bragged about codex size recently. GW seems to like larger books when they can be sold for a premium, limited edition books produced at GW's scale, price point, and sale speed are something many companies would salivate over.

 

I keep trying to do some idea of the business calculus and I just don't see it. I feel anyone particularly conservative running the numbers would be hard opposed to it over the risk of customer lose and long term sales concerns.

 

Then there is also the range rotation system they have created. Not only does it have most of the benefits of retiring the model but allows them to bring the model out periodically to spark FOMO within their community. Even in more GW averse communities you see people hate on MTO range rotation models only to get the ones they want the most. It would give them on last sale opportunity for models shifted to the new HH scale.

 

We have seen one plastic mkII HH body as crew for the spartan. It can be expected to see mk II as a full release at some point down the line. Due to the similarities to mkIII GW can shift mkIII to range rotation if they are not selling sufficiently and then later down the line use the mkII CAD files to make mkIII in the new HH scale as a cheap filler for a new release.

 

Maintaining many of the kits and even keeping them on the webstore to sell in other games but just not selling them to LSM players feels like such a weird business decision I cannot get my head around.

GW has shown pretty clearly that they don’t actually give a :cuss about its players.

Sure there will be some lost players but most of those will likely just go to 30k, amounting in very little actual loss of players

Little player loss is still more than 0 which is lost revenue.

which is offset by new players.

How does retiring firstborn create new players?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

 

A big problem with retiring firstborn I keep coming back to is the business side and that this decision would have to have already been made and explained to business side people multiple times. On that I just struggle to see it work well. I can practically hear some of the questions asked. Like what the customer overlap is and what the expected customer loss is.

 

If firstborn are dropped from 40k they would still be on the webstore for 30k. They are still being produced, still taking up shelf space in stores and in storage, master molds are still being produced and maintained, SKU are still being maintained. Grey Knights will be resized eventually and someone will ask why the CAD files cannot be reused. The rhino will still be produced and sold in 40k for CSM and SoBs just excluded from LSM.

 

There will be 40k players who exist in an area who like the 30k marine aesthetic like beakies but there isn't a 30k community in the area so their 30k purchases will limited. Someone will spot that demographic and want to target it because hooking that individual means potentially hooking contacts of that individual.

 

Savings look pretty minimal, some firstborn kits in 40k are removed like vanguard veterans, thunderwolf cavalry, and centurions and you save some page space by removing firstborn options from the codex but while those savings would add up the question would be posed about the offset from customer loss.

 

Any time a business does anything it will lose some customers, there may be a net gain but some are lost. People will want to know expected net customer gain or lose compared to expected savings and long term revenue and profit changes. Cutting firstborn mostly seems to be savings from needing fewer pages in the codex and models produced but with HH coming to plastic it doesn't seem like there will actually be a huge net change in firstborn kits. GW has also not been taking measures to reduce codex size and has even bragged about codex size recently. GW seems to like larger books when they can be sold for a premium, limited edition books produced at GW's scale, price point, and sale speed are something many companies would salivate over.

 

I keep trying to do some idea of the business calculus and I just don't see it. I feel anyone particularly conservative running the numbers would be hard opposed to it over the risk of customer lose and long term sales concerns.

 

Then there is also the range rotation system they have created. Not only does it have most of the benefits of retiring the model but allows them to bring the model out periodically to spark FOMO within their community. Even in more GW averse communities you see people hate on MTO range rotation models only to get the ones they want the most. It would give them on last sale opportunity for models shifted to the new HH scale.

 

We have seen one plastic mkII HH body as crew for the spartan. It can be expected to see mk II as a full release at some point down the line. Due to the similarities to mkIII GW can shift mkIII to range rotation if they are not selling sufficiently and then later down the line use the mkII CAD files to make mkIII in the new HH scale as a cheap filler for a new release.

 

Maintaining many of the kits and even keeping them on the webstore to sell in other games but just not selling them to LSM players feels like such a weird business decision I cannot get my head around.

GW has shown pretty clearly that they don’t actually give a :cuss about its players.

Sure there will be some lost players but most of those will likely just go to 30k, amounting in very little actual loss of players

Little player loss is still more than 0 which is lost revenue.

which is offset by new players.

How does retiring firstborn create new players?

I never even remotely said anything like that.

The game gets new players every year.

 

You haven’t explained why GW would continue to produce and stock kits that they’re not promoting and thus few of those kits will be sold.

Edited May 2, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[DesuVult]

 

 

 

 

 

A big problem with retiring firstborn I keep coming back to is the business side and that this decision would have to have already been made and explained to business side people multiple times. On that I just struggle to see it work well. I can practically hear some of the questions asked. Like what the customer overlap is and what the expected customer loss is.

 

If firstborn are dropped from 40k they would still be on the webstore for 30k. They are still being produced, still taking up shelf space in stores and in storage, master molds are still being produced and maintained, SKU are still being maintained. Grey Knights will be resized eventually and someone will ask why the CAD files cannot be reused. The rhino will still be produced and sold in 40k for CSM and SoBs just excluded from LSM.

 

There will be 40k players who exist in an area who like the 30k marine aesthetic like beakies but there isn't a 30k community in the area so their 30k purchases will limited. Someone will spot that demographic and want to target it because hooking that individual means potentially hooking contacts of that individual.

 

Savings look pretty minimal, some firstborn kits in 40k are removed like vanguard veterans, thunderwolf cavalry, and centurions and you save some page space by removing firstborn options from the codex but while those savings would add up the question would be posed about the offset from customer loss.

 

Any time a business does anything it will lose some customers, there may be a net gain but some are lost. People will want to know expected net customer gain or lose compared to expected savings and long term revenue and profit changes. Cutting firstborn mostly seems to be savings from needing fewer pages in the codex and models produced but with HH coming to plastic it doesn't seem like there will actually be a huge net change in firstborn kits. GW has also not been taking measures to reduce codex size and has even bragged about codex size recently. GW seems to like larger books when they can be sold for a premium, limited edition books produced at GW's scale, price point, and sale speed are something many companies would salivate over.

 

I keep trying to do some idea of the business calculus and I just don't see it. I feel anyone particularly conservative running the numbers would be hard opposed to it over the risk of customer lose and long term sales concerns.

 

Then there is also the range rotation system they have created. Not only does it have most of the benefits of retiring the model but allows them to bring the model out periodically to spark FOMO within their community. Even in more GW averse communities you see people hate on MTO range rotation models only to get the ones they want the most. It would give them on last sale opportunity for models shifted to the new HH scale.

 

We have seen one plastic mkII HH body as crew for the spartan. It can be expected to see mk II as a full release at some point down the line. Due to the similarities to mkIII GW can shift mkIII to range rotation if they are not selling sufficiently and then later down the line use the mkII CAD files to make mkIII in the new HH scale as a cheap filler for a new release.

 

Maintaining many of the kits and even keeping them on the webstore to sell in other games but just not selling them to LSM players feels like such a weird business decision I cannot get my head around.

GW has shown pretty clearly that they don’t actually give a :cuss about its players.

Sure there will be some lost players but most of those will likely just go to 30k, amounting in very little actual loss of players

Little player loss is still more than 0 which is lost revenue.

which is offset by new players.

How does retiring firstborn create new players?

I never even remotely said anything like that.

The game gets new players every year.

So you think GW is going to knowingly and intentionally reduce profits for no reason?

[WrathOfTheLion]

The fact that I can without much effort craft some plan to keep them around and make the business money means that they'd be grossly incompetent to have not done so as well. More importantly than that, it means that it is quite reasonable for others to have different takes on what they observe than you do. Multiple people have provided rational observations and even possible business plans, contrary to what your opinion is.

 

As DesuVult mentions, there's multiple factors any business would normally be considering - not just new customers, but also churn, customer retention and factors beyond that. These are all things considered when the company makes decisions.

 

As a thought experiment, do new customers have loyalty to the Primaris and their lore, or are they in for models that look cool? If it's the latter, which it almost certainly is, then there's significant freedom as to their ability to expand that market.

Edited May 2, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

The fact that I can without much effort craft some plan to keep them around and make the business money means that they'd be grossly incompetent to have not done so as well. More importantly than that, it means that it is quite reasonable for others to have different takes on what they observe than you do. Multiple people have provided rational observations and even possible business plans, contrary to what your opinion is.

 

As DesuVult mentions, there's multiple factors any business would normally be considering - not just new customers, but also churn, customer retention and factors beyond that. These are all things considered when the company makes decisions.

 

As a thought experiment, do new customers have loyalty to the Primaris and their lore, or are they in for models that look cool? If it's the latter, which it almost certainly is, then there's significant freedom as to their ability to expand that market.

make money, sure but enough to make it worth keeping them around? Who will be buying these old kits that is not being promoted? Old vets who already have at least one of each of these kits?

 

If you put something up for sale, you’ll eventually find someone to buy it and make money, that doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.

[Marshal Reinhard]

However, I don't agree that removing what was the most popular faction is equivalent to...

 

Is it even correct to think of Primaris and classic marines as seperate factions?

no one is talking about them as separate factions.

Could've fooled me.

Edited May 2, 2022 by Reinhard

[WrathOfTheLion]

Replace faction with 'model line' if it makes you feel better, I obviously wasn't intending pedantism on that particular detail.

 

The point is still the same. Dropping what constituted the entirety of the Space Marine lineup just six years ago, and was the face of it for decades, is not equivalent to squats being dropped in the infancy of the game.

 

I'm not particularly interested in playing word games, if that was supposed to dismiss the actual point in some way.

Edited May 2, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[DesuVult]

 

The fact that I can without much effort craft some plan to keep them around and make the business money means that they'd be grossly incompetent to have not done so as well. More importantly than that, it means that it is quite reasonable for others to have different takes on what they observe than you do. Multiple people have provided rational observations and even possible business plans, contrary to what your opinion is.

 

As DesuVult mentions, there's multiple factors any business would normally be considering - not just new customers, but also churn, customer retention and factors beyond that. These are all things considered when the company makes decisions.

 

As a thought experiment, do new customers have loyalty to the Primaris and their lore, or are they in for models that look cool? If it's the latter, which it almost certainly is, then there's significant freedom as to their ability to expand that market.

make money, sure but enough to make it worth keeping them around? Who will be buying these old kits that is not being promoted? Old vets who already have at least one of each of these kits?

 

If you put something up for sale, you’ll eventually find someone to buy it and make money, that doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.

If it makes money it is a good idea from a business perspective. Why would it not be a good idea to sell it to make money?

 

I thought I addressed it reasonably here.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/373915-possible-evidence-that-firstborn-could-stick-around-forever/page-5?do=findComment&comment=5821758

 

Some kits will be kept around for other armies, many kits will be kept around for use in HH, and most will likely eventually be replaced by a HH equivalent. That means GW will have the kits in stock, the only savings will be codex page count which GW has recently shown no concern over by intentionally increasing codex page count.

[Orange Knight]

It could be argued that the only "Firstborn" kits that even sell particularly well are those that have very good rules, and often this is the case by pure coincidence, or due to having access to a specific piece of wargear that hasn't seen a Primaris re-imagining as of yet.

 

New players will not be drawn to the older kits due to the visual aspect, the Primaris look a lot more impressive with their proportions, bigger weapons, etc. They are front and centre in the marketing and lore.

 

The veteran collectors who already own multiple Landraiders, Tactical Squads and Terminators aren't buying them in any significant numbers because they already own the kits in triplicate.

 

Once a Jump Pack equipped Primaris unit that specialises in close combat is released, it will probably make Vanguard Veterans redundant. In the meantime the niche units like Thuderfire Cannons and Whilrwinds have been nerfed out of competitive consideration and are not appearing on tabletops or flying off the shelves like they used to.

I imagine that Chapter specific units will eventually receive a Primaris replacement, as we saw with the very effective job GW did regarding the Black Templars.

 

At that point it will be very easy to simply discontinue a lot of the older kits and retire the units to Legends.

 

That being said, I expect tye Heresy range to continue. GW will be keen to sell new vehicles and models, so they are releasing a whole new line of infantry and vehicles. Again, the idea is to buy new units and not just use the ones you've owned for the last 20 years. I'm still not sure I will invest in the Heresy as 40k is a big commitment in and of itself.

[phandaal]

 

The point is still the same. Dropping what constituted the entirety of the Space Marine lineup just six years ago, and was the face of it for decades, is not equivalent to squats being dropped in the infancy of the game.

 

Yep. GW declaring "this range is dead, you will now get a new range" went about as well as that kind of thing has ever gone. There is a reason "New Coke" is studied in business school, and it is not because people like having their favorite thing taken away, nor is it because having a cavalier attitude towards customer loss is a good idea.

[WrathOfTheLion]

It could be argued that the only "Firstborn" kits that even sell particularly well are those that have very good rules, and often this is the case by pure coincidence, or due to having access to a specific piece of wargear that hasn't seen a Primaris re-imagining as of yet.

 

New players will not be drawn to the older kits due to the visual aspect, the Primaris look a lot more impressive with their proportions, bigger weapons, etc. They are front and centre in the marketing and lore.

 

The veteran collectors who already own multiple Landraiders, Tactical Squads and Terminators aren't buying them in any significant numbers because they already own the kits in triplicate.

 

That's in the linear trend of the now, but as a company, those newer players that have been drawn into the Primaris look due to the quality of the models would be prime candidates to sell redesigned and reproportioned MK VII armor, etc. to in say, 5-10 years time. Let it sit fallow for a bit, then come with redesigned kits that address the visual aspect. That could easily be a realistic sales strategy. Even if only say, 1/4 of them purchase in, that'd still be a larger potential market than many of the other factions currently in the game.

[Orange Knight]

If anything, the Horus Heresy is more of an indication that they will retire the old range of 40k Marines.

 

Primaris will take up the allocated shelf space of the 40k Astartes, and the traditional designs will be re-imagined for the Horus Heresy specialist game.

 

Between the new and shiny Primaris, and the well executed, better scaled Horus Heresy releases AND the new Leagues of Votann on the horizon, it leaves very little room for the old Astartes kits.

[WrathOfTheLion]

There's the other shoe as well though, if that's a commercial success, then they know they can do that with other stuff in the future, i.e., redesigning and reimagining these kits in newer scale has market value.

 

Almost certainly immediate sales will be cannibalized though. For instance, the Mars pattern Rhino will definitely take a huge hit, especially if the new Deimos one is completely new sprues. The current one is fine, but even Chaos Rhino sales will decrease, as I personally would rather use Deimos pattern for my Chaos Space Marines over the current kit. Either I think of mine as veterans of the long war, or in the case of Red Corsairs that fits the Badab War aesthetic.

[Orange Knight]

But it's more commercially beneficial for them to sell you two different ranges.

 

If you can use the Horus Heresy Marines in 40k, and their rules are compelling and competitive, it gives you less incentive to purchase any of the dedicated 40k range.

[WrathOfTheLion]

But it's more commercially beneficial for them to sell you two different ranges.

 

If you can use the Horus Heresy Marines in 40k, and their rules are compelling and competitive, it gives you less incentive to purchase any of the dedicated 40k range.

This is true, but it would give them incentive to keep the datasheets around.

[DesuVult]

I feel like people may not have noticed that primaris isn't a way to sell marine players a new army, it is a way to sell 3. You can make a complete army of tacticus, gravis, or phobos. Marines are the cash cow consumer base. GW likes that consumer base as wide as possible. Horus Heresy kits in 40k broadens the consumer base.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

The point is still the same. Dropping what constituted the entirety of the Space Marine lineup just six years ago, and was the face of it for decades, is not equivalent to squats being dropped in the infancy of the game.

Yep. GW declaring "this range is dead, you will now get a new range" went about as well as that kind of thing has ever gone. There is a reason "New Coke" is studied in business school, and it is not because people like having their favorite thing taken away, nor is it because having a cavalier attitude towards customer loss is a good idea.

new coke was a disaster because no one liked it.

People actually like primaris

[Marshal Reinhard]

Replace faction with 'model line' if it makes you feel better, I obviously wasn't intending pedantism on that particular detail.

 

The point is still the same. Dropping what constituted the entirety of the Space Marine lineup just six years ago, and was the face of it for decades, is not equivalent to squats being dropped in the infancy of the game.

 

I'm not particularly interested in playing word games, if that was supposed to dismiss the actual point in some way.

Counter to what you may claim, I've seen that argument made numerous times, by numerous people, so no it was in no way 'obvious' that the words you used weren't intrnded to mean what they mean.

 

As for being dimissive, you may want to analyze the tone of your own post

[phandaal]

 

 

 

The point is still the same. Dropping what constituted the entirety of the Space Marine lineup just six years ago, and was the face of it for decades, is not equivalent to squats being dropped in the infancy of the game.

Yep. GW declaring "this range is dead, you will now get a new range" went about as well as that kind of thing has ever gone. There is a reason "New Coke" is studied in business school, and it is not because people like having their favorite thing taken away, nor is it because having a cavalier attitude towards customer loss is a good idea.

new coke was a disaster because no one liked it.

People actually like primaris

 

 

Rookie mistake on my part - now people will just argue about the analogy's relevance instead of the point which they know to be true.

 

Simplifying: taking something away means the replacement starts in a deficit position.

[DesuVult]

 

 

 

 

 

The point is still the same. Dropping what constituted the entirety of the Space Marine lineup just six years ago, and was the face of it for decades, is not equivalent to squats being dropped in the infancy of the game.

Yep. GW declaring "this range is dead, you will now get a new range" went about as well as that kind of thing has ever gone. There is a reason "New Coke" is studied in business school, and it is not because people like having their favorite thing taken away, nor is it because having a cavalier attitude towards customer loss is a good idea.

new coke was a disaster because no one liked it.

People actually like primaris

Rookie mistake on my part - now people will just argue about the analogy's relevance instead of the point which they know to be true.

 

Simplifying: taking something away means the replacement starts in a deficit position.

There is even often the assumption there will be temporary negative profit. Which means it must be justified that long term the removal will generate more profit than had the relevant item simply stayed in place.

[Grand_Master_Alpharius]

I don't quite agree with either of you wholly. I wholeheartedly agree that the Horus Heresy kits are designed for that game system first and foremost, and that any use in 40k is incidental with the current published datasheets.

 

However, I don't agree that removing what was the most popular faction is equivalent to removing a faction in the infancy of the game. The latter of course had minimal impact, the former has significant impact. Dismissing those that don't want this to happen of course is also wrong. As fellow hobbyists, we should never want to see someone's army removed or otherwise deleted from the game. We'll deal with what happens if GW makes that decision, but we shouldn't wish it to happen, that's bizarre.

Couldn't Agree with you more. In point of fact, I have around 14K points of Dark Angels (roughly about a third of the chapter), which really is my pride and joy, but the bulk of it including my Deathwing and Ravenwing is firstborn.

 

 

It would tear my heart out if all the time and effort I've put in was to be just thrown away. The threat to my collection is very alarming though, I'll be honest there.

[WrathOfTheLion]

 

Replace faction with 'model line' if it makes you feel better, I obviously wasn't intending pedantism on that particular detail.

 

The point is still the same. Dropping what constituted the entirety of the Space Marine lineup just six years ago, and was the face of it for decades, is not equivalent to squats being dropped in the infancy of the game.

 

I'm not particularly interested in playing word games, if that was supposed to dismiss the actual point in some way.

Counter to what you may claim, I've seen that argument made numerous times, by numerous people, so no it was in no way 'obvious' that the words you used weren't intrnded to mean what they mean.

 

As for being dimissive, you may want to analyze the tone of your own post

Just was ensuring it wasn't something like they're the same faction -> update -> them being removed isn't actually something being removed, which is sort of weird logic I've seen made before. There was going to be no point in discussing if weird bait and switches were made like that, I did not know where you were going with it.

 

Just as one might argue they're separate factions, of which they're both Space Marines, the other end of that is attempting to define them out of existence through things like that, even though there's clearly a conceptual difference between the two even if in the same book/faction, or else this thread wouldn't even exist.

Edited May 2, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[phandaal]

 

 

Rookie mistake on my part - now people will just argue about the analogy's relevance instead of the point which they know to be true.

 

Simplifying: taking something away means the replacement starts in a deficit position.

There is even often the assumption there will be temporary negative profit. Which means it must be justified that long term the removal will generate more profit than had the relevant item simply stayed in place.

 

 

Yes. Kind of wild when you think about it. All GW had to do was not present Primaris as the better replacement version of Space Marines. The models are cool, but the framing around their launch was awful.

 

At this point I am expecting some of the original datasheets to go away just due to bloat, but not for everything prior to 2017 to be removed or relegated to HH or a separate codex.