Possible evidence that Firstborn could stick around forever.

[DesuVult]

 

 

 

Rookie mistake on my part - now people will just argue about the analogy's relevance instead of the point which they know to be true.

 

Simplifying: taking something away means the replacement starts in a deficit position.

There is even often the assumption there will be temporary negative profit. Which means it must be justified that long term the removal will generate more profit than had the relevant item simply stayed in place.

Yes. Kind of wild when you think about it. All GW had to do was not present Primaris as the better replacement version of Space Marines. The models are cool, but the framing around their launch was awful.

 

At this point I am expecting some of the original datasheets to go away just due to bloat, but not for everything prior to 2017 to be removed or relegated to HH or a separate codex.

I am not sure GW views page bloat as a problem. I feel they should but they are not behaving like they view it as one.

[Marshal Reinhard]

There being a conceptual difference between Primaris and classic marines is perhaps GW's biggest mistake in the whole thing. It allowed the wiggle room in reasoning that the marine update weren't 'real marines', which is how the argument that primaris and non-primaris are not the same factions were perpetuated for some years. Some even calling that the story should go for another big civil war in the Imperium with primaris vs non-primaris, and other tiresome rationalizations for how their marines are the one and true ones.

 

By this point I think most have realized it's not going to that, marines aren't being replaced and cancelled, they're being updated. I'm much for GW hurrying up and updating all the remaining special characters and such for this reason especially.

 

But marines being removed is only a true statement if after the removal, there's nothing like them left. But there' is infact something 'like  them' still there even if/when classic loadouts go, many 'somethings' in fact. They're not 1 for 1 in many cases, but even so there's the Legends system to keep the older variations legal in perpetuity.

Edited May 2, 2022 by Reinhard

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

However, I don't agree that removing what was the most popular faction is equivalent to...

 

Is it even correct to think of Primaris and classic marines as seperate factions?

no one is talking about them as separate factions.

Could've fooled me.

then you’re easily fooled.

 

They’re two distinct product lines within the same faction. Pretty simple

[Marshal Reinhard]

 

then you’re easily fooled.

 

They’re two distinct product lines within the same faction. Pretty simple

 

[DesuVult]

 

 

However, I don't agree that removing what was the most popular faction is equivalent to...

 

Is it even correct to think of Primaris and classic marines as seperate factions?

no one is talking about them as separate factions.

Could've fooled me.

then you’re easily fooled.

 

They’re two distinct product lines within the same faction. Pretty simple

You seem to be very strangely confrontational regarding this topic and do not seem to be reading the entirety of what people are posting. I feel this has happened a couple times now where you seem to be making some short knee-jerk response that misses what was posted and the intent behind it.

[WrathOfTheLion]

 

By this point I think most have realized it's not going to that, marines aren't being replaced and cancelled, they're being updated. I'm much for GW hurrying up and updating all the remaining special characters and such for this reason especially.

 

But marines being removed is only a true statement if after the removal, there's nothing like them left. But there' is infact something 'like  them' still there even if/when classic loadouts go, many 'somethings' in fact. They're not 1 for 1 in many cases, but even so there's the Legends system to keep the older variations legal in perpetuity.

I agree on most of it, but my opinion that they're not being replaced is a semantic difference. I don't really like semantic argumentation, so things like saying because they're also called Space Marines means your army wasn't replaced, it was 'updated' I disagree with on structural grounds, as that's sort of loose playing with definitions. At the end of the day, what would have happened is 'A' becomes 'A + B' becomes 'B', which means 'A' was replaced.

Edited May 2, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[Marshal Reinhard]

I could argue that the reverse is equally arguing semantics as well, as insisting that primaris are B and not just more A is somewhat arbitrary. (Somewhat unfortunately being a key word as there clearly is a conceptual difference between primaris marines and classics as acknowledged earlier.)

 

You may feel its just imprecise playing with loose definitions. I dare say it points to there being more than one valid view point.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I could argue that the reverse is equally arguing semantics as well, as insisting that primaris are B and not just more A is somewhat arbitrary. (Somewhat unfortunately being a key word as there clearly is a conceptual difference between primaris marines and classics as acknowledged earlier.)

 

You may feel its just imprecise playing with loose definitions. I dare say it points to there being more than one valid view point.

This is why I tried to identify this. We disagree here, so we don't need to address it further and we can move on.

[Captain Idaho]

One thing I'd like to point out is Primaris aren't an updated model line; they share literally no units common to Firstborn. Barring Bolter Marines and Plasma Gunners, there are no models that can slot into representation of Primaris units, or vice versa (Intercessors = bolter Marines etc). I suppose Vanguard can be given Shields and swords and represent Bladeguard, or the other way round.

 

So whether we call the models updates, or replacements is immaterial in relation to the real question; can I still use my Marines?

 

For now, objectively yes. In fact, I'd argue the majority of competitive elements come from Firstborn so they're not being short changed at all in the rules department.

 

Near future? That's the point of the thread and ultimately we just don't know. Going to Legends is an option which people claim means the Firstborn aren't going away, but that's a bit of a false equivalence. Legends aren't updated (Power Armour Calgar is more expensive than any other!) And players don't care to use obsolete, nonstandard rules (i.e. out of the current iteration).

 

Flipping it, would you be happy if Intercessors went into Legends? Or Incursors? After having bought and painted the models?

 

Of course no one would, so the argument doesn't stand scrutiny there.

 

But what are the odds of GW doing this; sending Firstborn to Legends?

 

I'm not sure when it'll happen. How many Firstborn players need to slowly whittle out of the hobby for any potential backlash to be minimal?

 

I just don't know. GW sales have stalled somewhat recently, for various reasons mostly not their own fault but some likely are (I think 3D printing is impacting them slightly but the covid work from home bubble has burst) so would GW want to rock that apple cart? Do they need to? Would a bold new direction be what the board wants?

 

These are mostly questions as I just don't have the answers for them.

 

Here's an interesting take from GW actually - I asked them whether I could use my Terminator Calgar or 2nd edition Tigurius models in a GW tournament, representing the newest Primaris version of their rules since they have no other Codex equivalent. GW confirmed yes.

 

I'll see if I can dig out the email if needed and people don't believe me, but really I bring this up because GW genuinely likely sees Primaris and Firstborn as just different steps in Marine evolution. This might be contrary to the practical application of the models, but I suspect GW sees it like that.

Edited May 2, 2022 by Captain Idaho

[WrathOfTheLion]

One thing I'm interested to see, is whether the Razorback, Chaos Rhino, SoB Rhino and Rhino are rebased on the new Deimos chassis. If the kit is completely new sprues, it'll be an interesting case study with what they do.

 

I'm reminded of the initial Sisters of Battle posts, with the Deimos Rhino instead of Deimos-looking bits added onto a Mars-pattern Rhino.

Edited May 2, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think when each mold/die for a first born unit ceases to produce quality casts that unit will go to Legends. Was there this level of concern for RTB Marines back in the day ?

 

Edited May 2, 2022 by Black Blow Fly

[WrathOfTheLion]

I think when each mold/die for a first born unit ceases to produce quality casts that unit will go to Legends. Was there this level of concern for RTB Marines back in the day ?

I'm not quite certain on this, as I think the Mars Rhino and Bike Squads have been producing not the best casts for a while now. As mentioned above, I want to see what they do with vehicles. They must update the Rhino sprue eventually for Chaos and Sisters, so how does this work?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The rhino is an edge case since sisters use it as well.

[WrathOfTheLion]

The rhino is an edge case since sisters use it as well.

As well as Chaos Marines, same with the Land Raider. It's still an interesting data point - if they start using Deimos pattern in the wake of possibly entirely new 30k chassis for these, we know they'll stylistically change that direction for them.

Edited May 3, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

"As well as Chaos Marines, same with the Land Raider. It's still an interesting data point - if they start using Deimos pattern in the wake of possibly entirely new 30k chassis for these, we know they'll stylistically change that direction for them."

 

Agreed !

[Rik Lightstar]

I can see there being some obvious merging of certain Firstborn and Primaris units with very little impact as long as the transport restrictions go.

 

For example:

• Pretty much ANY Character choices, merging Captains so there's the marginally improved Primaris Stat Line as the base and all of the Weapon and Wargear options available would be fine from a balance perspective, same story with Chaplains, Techmarines, Librarians etc. An appropriate Firstborn or Primaris miniature and you should be good to go.
• Vanguard Veterans and Sternguard Veterans should stay but with the Primaris Stat Line, ditch Veteran Intercessors because they can be fielded as either VVs or SVs

I don't think Tactical, Assault, Devastator or Terminator squads are going anywhere any time soon. I do however expect that they will get the options of their Heresy equivalent units and gradually those kits will be migrated to "dual system" just like Daemons are currently. MK VII Power Armour is technically a late Heresy design so don't be surprised if there's a dedicated MK VII box at some point.

 

Rik