Advise against Eldar (non Harlequin)?

[Bulwyf]

My friend is deciding to play his Eldar army only (he has almost every army in the game for 40k) and it is just torture playing against it.

 

I could appreciate any advice on how to deal with it. I don't see any point to bring Njal or a rune priest with what Eldar can do in psyker stage.

 

My current plan that I have to play has 3 redemptors with a techmarine with the warlord upgrade/chief techmarine with some TWC with a chap on a bike to run with them. Also have Ragnar with 6 BGV to run around on the other side from the TWC/bike chap and a squad of Wulfen with TH/SS to outflank to cause some ruckus. 4 squads of intercessors to hold objectives as well. 

 

The fate dice they get on top of all the other buffs and rules is insane imo. I absolutely detest a mechanic that guarantees dice results IN A DICE GAME. It is against the spirit of the game to have a mechanic like this.

 

He brings dark reapers to pop marines, the banshees with jain zar with a crazy combo that means anything near jain zar fights last even if they charge. I don't know how armor of russ would interact with her rules tbh. He also brings wraith knights, tons of bright lances everywhere and some kind of eldar artillery unit that hits really hard at 24 inches.

[TiguriusX]

expect to lose and dont stress

aeldari are sneaky broken because other stuff was more obvious at the time (*cough clowns cough*)

d cannon spam is a thing
fate dice
phoenix lords that only take 3 wounds a phase but also get LOS protection
baharroth and his peace out BS
eldritch storm (AOE mw spell...basically an instant orbital bombardment)


make an alpha strike list and go 1st...thats your only hope

 

*edit

or maaaaybe if lucky make a defensive hiding list and play objectives

You can ride out artillery with the AoC changes

It will hurt but if you build specifically for it you will get a few turns in

Edited April 26, 2022 by TiguriusX

[Toldavf]

So the first thing I am seeing is that the armour of Russ is a good counter to Banshees IF you allow yourself to be charged. The way it works is thus they make you strike last, you make them strike last, neither unit strikes last and the combat is resolved as normal which means you get to pick the first unit to fight after all other charges have been resolved because it is not your turn. 

 

Same goes for the judicar.

 

5 terminators with storm bolters could deal with the reapers turn 2 i think.

 

Vs a wraith knight hmmm. See most of the hard hitting stuff is to slow to catch it or to fragile to survive the time it would take to kill it. Eradicators that are buffed will do some damage but aren't efficient. It has -1 damage and is a pain because of it. Wulfen with frost claws are on paper the unit that does best against it, but again good luck getting them to catch it. Maybe take 3 vindicator laser destroyers IDK :P

 

It would help a little to know more specifics if that's possible please. 

[Bulwyf]

So the first thing I am seeing is that the armour of Russ is a good counter to Banshees IF you allow yourself to be charged. The way it works is thus they make you strike last, you make them strike last, neither unit strikes last and the combat is resolved as normal which means you get to pick the first unit to fight after all other charges have been resolved because it is not your turn. 

 

Same goes for the judicar.

 

5 terminators with storm bolters could deal with the reapers turn 2 i think.

 

Vs a wraith knight hmmm. See most of the hard hitting stuff is to slow to catch it or to fragile to survive the time it would take to kill it. Eradicators that are buffed will do some damage but aren't efficient. It has -1 damage and is a pain because of it. Wulfen with frost claws are on paper the unit that does best against it, but again good luck getting them to catch it. Maybe take 3 vindicator laser destroyers IDK

 

It would help a little to know more specifics if that's possible please. 

 

He likes to bring guardians with d cannons, the eldar artillery with 3 crewed vehicles I have no idea what it is called, two wraithknights, a squad of dark reapers equipped to kill marines, two squads of banshees with Jain Zarr, a squad of striking scorpoins, Eldrad, a full unit of warlocks, two far seers. I think that was in his list. He can also put in the new snipers on bike squad that has a billion shots on it, the wraith guard or whatever the smaller wraith knight type unit is called.

 

He has basically ever eldar unit and can swap in whatever he wants. He owns almost every single 40k army and model, not joking. 

[TiguriusX]

I don't know what harlie thing you are worried about but there is a fight first / fight normal / fight last official document from GW

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/OQ1TeUZ6hxw5jp1e.pdf

 

 

The best advice if someone has fight last is to CHARGE THEM...you start in fight first b/c of charging

You drop down to fight NORMAL if they have a special rule

 

Since we are SW we have tricks to make THEM fight last as well

 

This will drop them to fight LAST

 

FIGHT NORMAL goes before FIGHT LAST

So even though you...the charger...got hit you STILL end up fighting before the target

[Bulwyf]

I don't know what harlie thing you are worried about but there is a fight first / fight normal / fight last official document from GW

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/OQ1TeUZ6hxw5jp1e.pdf

 

 

The best advice if someone has fight last is to CHARGE THEM...you start in fight first b/c of charging

You drop down to fight NORMAL if they have a special rule

 

Since we are SW we have tricks to make THEM fight last as well

 

This will drop them to fight LAST

 

FIGHT NORMAL goes before FIGHT LAST

So even though you...the charger...got hit you STILL end up fighting before the target

 

Jain Zar has this rule that anything in engagement range of her fights last. My guess is that if I charge her with armor of russ the two nullify and my charge would go first.

[TiguriusX]

 

 

I don't know what harlie thing you are worried about but there is a fight first / fight normal / fight last official document from GW

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/OQ1TeUZ6hxw5jp1e.pdf

 

 

The best advice if someone has fight last is to CHARGE THEM...you start in fight first b/c of charging

You drop down to fight NORMAL if they have a special rule

 

Since we are SW we have tricks to make THEM fight last as well

 

This will drop them to fight LAST

 

FIGHT NORMAL goes before FIGHT LAST

So even though you...the charger...got hit you STILL end up fighting before the target

Jain Zar has this rule that anything in engagement range of her fights last. My guess is that if I charge her with armor of russ the two nullify and my charge would go first.

they (armor of russ fight last and jain zar fight last) dont nullify each other

 

did you read the GW document?

 

fight last gets partially negated by fight first

 

charging counts as fight first

 

it is literally the silent king example in the GW link

 

having fight last from armor of russ lets you bump 1 unit you charged from fight normal down into fight last

 

TLDR...charge jain zar with armor of russ!

Edited April 27, 2022 by TiguriusX

[Toldavf]

 

So the first thing I am seeing is that the armour of Russ is a good counter to Banshees IF you allow yourself to be charged. The way it works is thus they make you strike last, you make them strike last, neither unit strikes last and the combat is resolved as normal which means you get to pick the first unit to fight after all other charges have been resolved because it is not your turn. 

 

Same goes for the judicar.

 

5 terminators with storm bolters could deal with the reapers turn 2 i think.

 

Vs a wraith knight hmmm. See most of the hard hitting stuff is to slow to catch it or to fragile to survive the time it would take to kill it. Eradicators that are buffed will do some damage but aren't efficient. It has -1 damage and is a pain because of it. Wulfen with frost claws are on paper the unit that does best against it, but again good luck getting them to catch it. Maybe take 3 vindicator laser destroyers IDK

 

It would help a little to know more specifics if that's possible please. 

 

He likes to bring guardians with d cannons, the eldar artillery with 3 crewed vehicles I have no idea what it is called, two wraithknights, a squad of dark reapers equipped to kill marines, two squads of banshees with Jain Zarr, a squad of striking scorpoins, Eldrad, a full unit of warlocks, two far seers. I think that was in his list. He can also put in the new snipers on bike squad that has a billion shots on it, the wraith guard or whatever the smaller wraith knight type unit is called.

 

He has basically ever eldar unit and can swap in whatever he wants. He owns almost every single 40k army and model, not joking. 

 

do you mean wraith lords or wraith knights? 2 Knights seems like a huge investment so I just want to clarify this. 

[Bulwyf]

 

 

So the first thing I am seeing is that the armour of Russ is a good counter to Banshees IF you allow yourself to be charged. The way it works is thus they make you strike last, you make them strike last, neither unit strikes last and the combat is resolved as normal which means you get to pick the first unit to fight after all other charges have been resolved because it is not your turn. 

 

Same goes for the judicar.

 

5 terminators with storm bolters could deal with the reapers turn 2 i think.

 

Vs a wraith knight hmmm. See most of the hard hitting stuff is to slow to catch it or to fragile to survive the time it would take to kill it. Eradicators that are buffed will do some damage but aren't efficient. It has -1 damage and is a pain because of it. Wulfen with frost claws are on paper the unit that does best against it, but again good luck getting them to catch it. Maybe take 3 vindicator laser destroyers IDK

 

It would help a little to know more specifics if that's possible please. 

 

He likes to bring guardians with d cannons, the eldar artillery with 3 crewed vehicles I have no idea what it is called, two wraithknights, a squad of dark reapers equipped to kill marines, two squads of banshees with Jain Zarr, a squad of striking scorpoins, Eldrad, a full unit of warlocks, two far seers. I think that was in his list. He can also put in the new snipers on bike squad that has a billion shots on it, the wraith guard or whatever the smaller wraith knight type unit is called.

 

He has basically ever eldar unit and can swap in whatever he wants. He owns almost every single 40k army and model, not joking. 

 

do you mean wraith lords or wraith knights? 2 Knights seems like a huge investment so I just want to clarify this. 

 

 

I'm not familiar with Eldar stuff cuz I swore off playing them back in 7th edition. My friend insists on using them and if it continues to be a blood bath in his favor I will ask him to play something else.

 

The two units I am referring to are the Eldar version of Dreadnoughts except they are actually T8 and still reduce damage by 1. 

[Karhedron]

The two units I am referring to are the Eldar version of Dreadnoughts except they are actually T8 and still reduce damage by 1.

Those are Wraithlords and I agree they are quite good although they pay a lot of points if fully tooled up.

[Toldavf]

Right, well his army seems well tooled to deal with yours. If he is loaded up with bright lances your dreadnoughts are going to have a bad time -1 damage or no. 

 

Wraith lords will die to enough melta, attack bikes seem to be a cheap and fast way to boat allot, while eradicators will serve you well in the same role. Both units will be public enemy number one however. Wulfen with frost claws can make a mess of them in melee a unit of 5 with savage strikes can finish off one that's missing a few wounds on average. If they have a few rerolls in there all the better. These small units also trade amazingly into banshees, sure you killed us all now die in return. at 125pts a few small squads can be a nice addition if properly screened from shooting. 

 

As for his reapers and artillery, any shooty unit with cunning of the wolf will do. at T5 and 5 wounds they are not overly squishy but will still die to a cheaper or equal units unit. again eradicators are the hardest to screen against. The best counter however may be to nuisance charge them. A single land speeder turn 2 that charges them will prevent at least one turn of shooting which may be the most critical as you advance. You wont kill any but it will be easy enough to do, heck hedge your bets take 2 and pincer him worst case only one makes it in best case you can keep him locked up for 2 turns and by that time you can be on him with real melee. 

[TiguriusX]

do not try to outflank using cunning of the wolf

 

aeldari have forewarned which is a super buff version of auspex

 

basically a squadron of 3 dcannons can blast you easily without even needing LOS

 

and remember...if he chooses Ulthwé then strands of fate are basically auto saves against any shot you manage to make

[Toldavf]

do not try to outflank using cunning of the wolf

 

aeldari have forewarned which is a super buff version of auspex

 

basically a squadron of 3 dcannons can blast you easily without even needing LOS

 

and remember...if he chooses Ulthwé then strands of fate are basically auto saves against any shot you manage to make

You can still pull this off if you stay 18" away from the nasty units. but yes as I mentioned earlier in the thread you have to be aware of it and position accordingly. 

[Bulwyf]

do not try to outflank using cunning of the wolf

 

aeldari have forewarned which is a super buff version of auspex

 

basically a squadron of 3 dcannons can blast you easily without even needing LOS

 

and remember...if he chooses Ulthwé then strands of fate are basically auto saves against any shot you manage to make

 

Ulthwé is all he takes. And he takes Eldrad so he gets to keep 5 out of 6 dice rolls. In a dice game. Which I hate as a mechanic. It isn't his fault that the eldar codex is far superior to ours but it still rankles to play a dice roll game and the opponent gets to just swap out dice.

This is the list I plan on playing against him. He told me he's changing his list but that's all he said. I present the "oh crap there's so much target saturation" list.  Ragnar and 6 BGV on one side, 3 redemptors plus chief techmarine in the middle, TWC on the opposite side with the chap on bike to give them full melee rerolls, Wulfen to outflank where they are needed most and 4 squads of Intercessors to hold objectives. Feedback is encouraged. Thanks so much for the advice so far.

 

 

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Space Wolves) [102 PL, 12CP, 2,000pts] ++

 

+ Configuration +

 

**Chapter Selector**: Space Wolves

 

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) 

 

Detachment Command Cost

 

+ HQ +

 

Primaris Chaplain on Bike [8 PL, 150pts]: 4. Mantra of Strength, 6. Canticle of Hate (Aura), Chapter Command:  Master of Sanctity, The Armour of Russ

 

Primaris Techmarine [5 PL, 100pts]: Chapter Command:  Master of the Forge, Warden of the Ancients, Warlord

 

Ragnar Blackmane [7 PL, 130pts]

 

+ Troops +

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 100pts]: Bolt rifle

. 4x Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades

. Intercessor Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 100pts]: Auto Bolt Rifle

. 4x Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades

. Intercessor Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 100pts]: Bolt rifle

. 4x Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades

. Intercessor Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 100pts]: Bolt rifle

. 4x Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades

. Intercessor Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword

 

+ Elites +

 

Bladeguard Veteran Squad [10 PL, 210pts]

. 5x Bladeguard Veteran: 5x Frag & Krak grenades, 5x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 5x Master-crafted power sword, 5x Storm Shield

. Bladeguard Veteran Sergeant: Heavy Bolt Pistol

 

Redemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 195pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Icarus Rocket Pod, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

 

Redemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 195pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Icarus Rocket Pod, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

 

Redemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 195pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Icarus Rocket Pod, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

 

Wulfen [8 PL, 145pts]

. Wulfen Pack Leader: Wulfen Frost claws

. 4x Wulfen w/ thunder hammer & storm shield: 4x Storm Shield, 4x Thunder Hammer

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Thunderwolf Cavalry [14 PL, 280pts]

. Thunderwolf Cavalry: Power fist, Storm shield

. Thunderwolf Cavalry: Power fist, Storm shield

. Thunderwolf Cavalry: Power fist, Storm shield

. Thunderwolf Cavalry: Power fist, Storm shield

. Thunderwolf Cavalry Pack Leader: Storm shield, Thunder hammer

 

++ Total: [102 PL, 12CP, 2,000pts] ++

 

Created with BattleScribe

Edited April 29, 2022 by Bulwyf

[Karhedron]

A Culexus Assassin might mess with his Psychics somewhat.

 

 

aeldari have forewarned which is a super buff version of auspex

You can still pull this off if you stay 18" away from the nasty units. but yes as I mentioned earlier in the thread you have to be aware of it and position accordingly.

 

The shooting unit also needs to be within 12" of a Farseer which makes it more restricted than Auspex.

Edited April 29, 2022 by Karhedron

[Toldavf]

A Culexus Assassin might mess with his Psychics somewhat.

 

 

aeldari have forewarned which is a super buff version of auspex

You can still pull this off if you stay 18" away from the nasty units. but yes as I mentioned earlier in the thread you have to be aware of it and position accordingly.

 

The shooting unit also needs to be within 12" of a Farseer which makes it more restricted than Auspex.

 

I was looking at the assassins' as well, the callidus has the obvious benefit of being able to make a charge but has the drawback of being vulnerable to those d-cannons if they are close by. 

 

The vindicare is a solid choice and will give value against all his characters in both area denial and damage. 

 

But yes the cullexus well he is a beast and you are quiet capable of infiltrating him right onto of the seer, so long as the cannons have no line of sight to him he is completely safe i think (gonna need a rules lawyer to check) but he reduces their bs to 6+ then they get a further BS debuff to 7+ note that these are ballistic skill debuffs not to hit penalties.  

 

Not sure if that works but good luck roling a 7 on a 6 sided dice. Its kinda fluffy though the farseer can't pin the exact location of the cullexus down and gives the wrong info. 

[TiguriusX]

d cannons dont need LOS to fire when you arrive as reinforcements using the forewarned stratagem

 

their new codex has broken OP stratagems that need fixing

 

the firing unit has to be within 12" of a farseer (that is easy)

 

the firing unit has to be within 18" of reinforcement...this zones out everything but grav cannons basically

 

please note those 2 distance requirements are to separate things....if he spaces out he can fire at a unit 11.9 + 17.9 inches away from his farseer

 

29" of F you zoning out protection

 

the final wording from their strat is "fire as normal"

 

so dcannons ignore LOS and if they have active buffs like fortune etc. they will pound whatever they fire at

 

 

goooooood luck if you deep strike or outflank against that

 

if you are specifically talking about the culexus he can use his strands of fate dice after rolling....so there is risk

Edited April 29, 2022 by TiguriusX

[Toldavf]

d cannons dont need LOS to fire when you arrive as reinforcements using the forewarned stratagem

 

their new codex has broken OP stratagems that need fixing

 

the firing unit has to be within 12" of a farseer (that is easy)

 

the firing unit has to be within 18" of reinforcement...this zones out everything but grav cannons basically

 

please note those 2 distance requirements are to separate things....if he spaces out he can fire at a unit 11.9 + 17.9 inches away from his farseer

 

29" of F you zoning out protection

 

the final wording from their strat is "fire as normal"

 

so dcannons ignore LOS and if they have active buffs like fortune etc. they will pound whatever they fire at

 

 

goooooood luck if you deep strike or outflank against that

 

if you are specifically talking about the culexus he can use his strands of fate dice after rolling....so there is risk

So long as you arent within 18" range of the arty unit you will be fine, you are overblowing how large the exclusion zone is. other screening troops might make it more tricky but considering that the other elites mentioned are mostly melee it should be ok.

[TiguriusX]

an 18" radius is massive (same as culexus)

most dcannons have 3 models so the bubble covers even more ground

 

their backfield is basically off limits and

most of midfield is too

 

 

what value target are you hoping to attack from over 18" away?

 

 

had multiple games into new aeldari...im sharing the lessons from seeing it first hand

 

even if you somehow survive and tag them your unit will be obliterated in the psychic phase from smite/executioner/mind war and the artillery will fire freely again

[Bulwyf]

So no thoughts or feedback on the list I'm using tomorrow? 

[Toldavf]

So no thoughts or feedback on the list I'm using tomorrow? 

Well your army is reasonably quick, not the quickest but still ok. I'd be careful with my charges and not let him have any heroic intervention if I can help it, the blade guard might be able to transhuman their way out of trouble with the cannons but against the banshees they will be to slow to get the charge. I expect the wulfen will either do great or die fast depending on how your opponent rates them. Its harsh but you will have a heck of a storm to weather once you break cover. 

 

Try not to absorb charges with dreadnaughts, banshees wound them on 4+ and a big unit can kill it, scorpions on the other hand are a better target to fight unless the exarch has crushing blows, then things can get sticky. A redemptor fist can make a mess of a wraithlord though so its not all bad. Naturaly the plasma fire with the castle of buffs dreads can pop should mitigate the mortal wounds you take and allow you to kill them over charge as well if you desire.

 

Hopefully the thunder wolves will have a decent avenue of advance, they should make it in turn 2 with no problems so long as they don't get counter charged. Avoid the scorpions with them if you can but if you cant make sure you kill them before they can swing. That shouldn't be a problem if the unit is unscathed. 

 

Limit your assaults and plan carefully, if you fight 2 elite units at once be prepared to get interrupted. It may be better to not charge at all than to charge and die.  

 

You might also try refusing the flank but again that's dependent on terrain and what he is doing with his deployment. 

[Bulwyf]

So I played today and won rather easily tbh. He had toned his list down since we last played. I got first turn and I rolled extremely well in the first turn. I hate to say it was decided first turn but it truly was. He was down three d cannons, his warlord Eldrad got caught in a first turn TWC w/chap on bike charge and killed, a guardian squad was killed with a bright lance and a biker squad of some kind of assault eldar was killed. 

 

He didn't have a chance of really winning the game after that so we called it really early in the game as a SW victory. He still had another seer that acted like a buffer to wraith constructs, two wraith lords and two squads of what he called wraith terminators. One was melee and the other was shooty. He said he didn't have enough left to take on the rest of my list so we shook hands and that was game. 

 

Appreciate the help. I knew I had made a good list but it really was kinda brutal on him. I think people really underestimate just how good TWC with a chap on bike to support them really is.

[TiguriusX]

your aeldari friend needs to improve his screening skills and take a few rangers in the future

 

congrats on the win

[Toldavf]

So I played today and won rather easily tbh. He had toned his list down since we last played. I got first turn and I rolled extremely well in the first turn. I hate to say it was decided first turn but it truly was. He was down three d cannons, his warlord Eldrad got caught in a first turn TWC w/chap on bike charge and killed, a guardian squad was killed with a bright lance and a biker squad of some kind of assault eldar was killed. 

 

He didn't have a chance of really winning the game after that so we called it really early in the game as a SW victory. He still had another seer that acted like a buffer to wraith constructs, two wraith lords and two squads of what he called wraith terminators. One was melee and the other was shooty. He said he didn't have enough left to take on the rest of my list so we shook hands and that was game. 

 

Appreciate the help. I knew I had made a good list but it really was kinda brutal on him. I think people really underestimate just how good TWC with a chap on bike to support them really is.

+3 to charges and advance and charge has to be respected. 

[TiguriusX]

you cant get +3 to charge

 

chaplain canticle of hate does not stack with any other buffs