Unfinished Business in the Horus Heresy

[lansalt]

Inspired by the last comments in the Warhawk thread about forgotten plots in the HH series that have went nowhere for now, I think it could be useful to have a list here for reference. Please add to this thread any story plots or characters that so far (TEATD3) haven't been explained somehow, or have been apparently forgotten/ignored by the writers. So far, I have:

 

• Lucius, Fabius, and the other EC characters besides the Fulgrim vs. Dorn battle (Saturnine)
• The Red Angel
• Why Magnus and the TS saved The Sisypheum and his crew (Sons of the Selenar)
• Why Alexis Polux and his IF didn't join the BA on their travel to Terra
• The surviving Thunder Warriors like Arik Taranis and his pals (The Outcast Dead)
• What happens to Barthusa Narek and his quest to kill Lorgar (Last seen in Terra during the events of TEATD)

• The fate of Hibou Khan and the Grey Talon crew (Little Horus)

• The fate of Amendera Kendel, the Silent Sister-turned-Agent of Malcador.

 

EDIT 2024-03-26:

• Loken's showdown vs. Horus. Explained in The End and the Death vol. 3

 

EDIT: 2022-07-17: The following points now have new sources to explain them:

• Garro's showdown vs. Mortarion (Why he didn't join the Khan against the DG?) Explained in the upcoming Siege of Terra novel Garro: Knight of Grey
• The status of Corax. Explained in WD 478's article about the The Passage of the Angel of Death
• The status of Russ.  Explained in WD 478's article about the The Passage of the Angel of Death
• Dominion Zephon becoming a Sanguinary Guard and dying(?)  Explained in the upcoming Siege of Terra novel Echoes of Eternity. EDIT 2022-12-05: It was not explained at all. Zephon is a SG in Bringer of Sorrow but in EoE he's not and wears red armour. Seems like ADB changed him again with no explanation for some reason (his new miniature?)

 

Edited March 29 by lansalt
Updated with new info

[Roomsky]

I think this thread can be useful and that people's grievances with certain items that will never / are unlikely to come to pass are totally fair. But we do still have 2 books and an unknown amount of novellas to go, so lots of this is probably going to get at least touched on.

 

• The status of Russ and Corax is that they don't make it to the Siege. I don't know if that's really a dangling thread.
• Swallow intended to write something featuring Garro set during the Siege. Considering the mercenary nature of his work atm, that could have been dropped or folded into something else. Or we might see Garro again and his whole Siege moment is accepting his expectations don't meet reality.

In the spirit of the thread, I'll add:

• The significance of the word "murder" (Vengeful Spirit)
• Everything Mars
• Cyrene, if she doesn't turn out to be Actae

I'm confident most of the other stuff I'm curious about is going to be covered.

[DarkChaplain]

Then there's also Sevatar, who is just... missing.

The big beef setup between Malcador and Horus, and Malcador's secret past, were teased in a short story but never followed up on.

....and then there's Lorgar, who was supposedly ascending during the Siege. Erebus has made his way to Terra at least, and Kor Phaeron is sitting at their new home planet. But Lorgar just tapped out of the biggest moment entirely.

 

Honestly, at this point I don't really expect new novellas. It's been too quiet on that front, and they haven't even been doing shorts, let alone an anthology - and the time for those is almost gone, at least for stuff that actually influences the books, rather than being pasted in after the fact. Even the few shorts we got since the Siege started were (far) prequel stuff, like for the Knights Errant.

[lansalt]

As far I know, Sevatar was last seen as a DA prisoner, and the authors (ADB?) have said that his real story, or the end for him, is set after the Heresy.

 

Lorgar failed in his coup against Horus just before the Siege, so he and most WB left the traitor forces.

 

Otherwise, I too hope that the next two SoT books and inevitable novellas tie all the loose ends. I haven't been bothered too much until now by most events, as I always keep in mind that the story is almost always told by unreliable narrators, but I admit screaming internally at the weak arguments that the Emperor used to try to turn back Magnus, heh.

[Ubiquitous1984]

Wasn’t there a demon buried inside the palace during an early novella?  Might have been The Purge.  The demon was put there so that it could be of use during the Siege.  Hope I am remembering this correctly!

 

Vulkan is also a big unknown, he hasn’t been heard from since Old Earth other than in Fury of Magnus.  What does he get up to in the Palace?

[lansalt]

Wasn’t there a demon buried inside the palace during an early novella?  Might have been The Purge.  The demon was put there so that it could be of use during the Siege.  Hope I am remembering this correctly!

 

Vulkan is also a big unknown, he hasn’t been heard from since Old Earth other than in Fury of Magnus.  What does he get up to in the Palace?

IIRC the daemon was from nurgle and was eliminated in one of the short stories with Garro or Malcador (?)

 

Vulkan simply stands as guardian between the portal and the Emperor in the golden throne just in case something bad happens (as it did with Magnus), and I don't think he's going to do anything else, even when Malcador will sit there to allow the Emperor to go to the Vengeful Spirit.

Edited April 29, 2022 by lansalt

[Moonreaper666]

Garro is probably going to fight Mortarion during Echoes. Vorx makes a cameo

 

Loken will witness Horus overpower the Emperor. His fate is to sacrifice himself to slow down Abaddon.

 

Vulkan has to play whack-a-daemon alongside the Custodes and Silent Sisters when Daemons inflitrate the Palace in hordes

 

Zephon could be the next Sanguinator. Maybe fight the Red Angel.

 

Magnus showing kindness to Nyoka's group just as he did to help Numellon revive Vulkan. Or as part of a plot to get a huge chunk of Primaris to turn traitor during the Great Rift, crippling the Imperium even more while making Tzeentch top dog.

 

'Murder' is probably connected to either Drach'nyen or Enuncia. 'Murder' is how Horus strips the Emperor of his immortality.

 

Mars is liberate as the first part of the Scouring

 

Narek fails in his assassination of Lorgar

 

Actae is probably Cyrene

[lansalt]

I didn't remember Barthusa Narek! Added to the OP.

 

Actae is probably Cyrene, and also Moriana, no doubt about that.

Edited April 29, 2022 by lansalt

[DarkChaplain]

I still expect Actae to be Cyrene but Moriana to be Oll's witch friend, who has shown some cracks. If she's just there as a foil for Oll and to get him from A to B it'll be a waste.

[Scribe]

 

Inspired by the last comments in the Warhawk thread about forgotten plots in the HH series that have went nowhere for now, I think it could be useful to have a list here for reference. Please add to this thread any story plots or characters that so far (SoT:Warhawk) haven't been explained somehow, or have been apparently forgotten/ignored by the writers. So far, I have:

 

• Garro's showdown vs. Mortarion (Why he didn't join the Khan against the DG?)
• Loken's showdown vs. Horus
• The status of Corax
• The status of Russ
• Lucius, Fabius, and the other EC characters besides the Fulgrim vs. Dorn battle (Saturnine)
• Dominion Zephon becoming a Sanguinary Guard and dying(?)
• The Red Angel
• Why Magnus and the TS saved The Sisypheum and his crew (Sons of the Selenar)
• Why Alexis Polux and his IF didn't join the BA on their travel to Terra
• The surviving Thunder Warriors like Arik Taranis and his pals (The Outcast Dead)
• What happens to Barthusa Narek and his quest to kill Lorgar

 

 

Not to dismiss anyone and what they like...but so much of this is stuff that literally shouldnt exist.

 

Garro? He would get splattered.

Loken? He would get splattered.

Corax? He should have been relegated to the background a LONG time ago, I believe he and Russ have a Scouring event or am I misremembering.

Russ? Same as Corax, he should have been done after breaking the Thousand Sons. Thats how it was supposed to be.

EC Stuff? Wrapped. That Legion has gone feral. End.

Sanguinary Guard? Nah, why?

On and on.

 

So much of this is my problem with the series in general.

[Bobss]

Agreed with Scribe not for the first time. A lot of this stuff is clutter that has outstayed its welcome in my mind. It's clear the parent Horus Heresy series wasn't planned or moderated to the same degree the Siege of Terra mini-series has been, and as a result I believe authors were able to insert all sorts of stuff into their books

Edited April 29, 2022 by Bobss

[Noserenda]

Sevatar is Cypher, embrace the maaaadness :D 

[Moonreaper666]

Pollux and his Imperial Fists either stayed on Ultramar to protect it or do their own campaigns like the Dark Angels or Shattered Legions

 

Daemons should be killing over a dozen Named Loyalists in Echoes and the Final Novel

[Valkyrion]

Like any long running series there's too many cooks adding their own ingredients to the broth.

 

I don't know whether it could have been feasible or not, but having a core team of Abnett, McNeill, ADB writing half a dozen books each, plus Kyme, Thorpe, Swallow et al contributing via novellas and anthologies, and the whole thing would have been nice and streamlined.

 

Galaxy in Flames, for instance, is really a must read because it pinches off the opening trilogy, but imagine if it was written by ADB instead. The only other thing Counter wrote is arguably the worst book of the entire series. Swallow had a cracking start with Eisenstein, but the rest of works are subpar, and a lot of the other books, whether good or bad, told stories that arguably didn't need telling at novel level - Nemesis, Outcast Dead, Abyss, Mechanicum etc.

 

Of the 54 books, 16 are anthologies. Take those away and you have 38 books. With a good batch of authors the series could have been done in 24 books, I reckon, and all the loose ends would have been tied off. 

[MarineRaider]

So much of the HH has been poorly thought out by BL. The Interex were a throw away line even though they handled the arachnids like zoo animals but the Blood Angels and EC were decimated. I have to constantly remind myself the writers of this series are not actually military guys but just guys with a love for the setting.

 

I think either by purpose or ignorance many questions will never be answered. This is about a small handful of things now, probably as it should be.

[Scribe]

Daemons should be killing over a dozen Named Loyalists in Echoes and the Final Novel

 

ADB doesnt write the kind of drivel you would prefer.

[Fedor]

Russ and the Wolves needed expanded on once the Heresy became a bigger conflict. Of course we can argue about how it was done, but just leaving them out after Prospero would have been impossible to fit coherently into the broader military campaign, unless you retconned things to have them be utterly devastated there.

[Scribe]

Russ and the Wolves needed expanded on once the Heresy became a bigger conflict. Of course we can argue about how it was done, but just leaving them out after Prospero would have been impossible to fit coherently into the broader military campaign, unless you retconned things to have them be utterly devastated there.

 

The retcon is that it WASNT utterly devastating. That is the point. It was to remove both legions from the board, and force the Thousand Son's into the arms of Tzeentch.

[byrd9999]

It's so much easier to critique this in hindsight, so we just have to deal with what we have: some books are essential reading, some are fun but not essential, some are not fun and not essential. And one book was so bad it nearly quashed my desire to read anything more by BL.

 

But, as a fan of the Heresy setting, it's a lot of fun to discuss how we would rework the HH series with the benefit of hindsight.

 

For a start, I would streamline the novels to the main thrust of the Heresy, so the Lion's backstory in Descent of Angels (which I enjoyed) would be moved to the Primarchs series instead. Nemesis (which was also fun in places) could be condensed into a novella. Pointless plots like Battle for the Abyss would be consigned to the ... abyss.

 

I think the sheer number of words taken up by the Shattered Legions (RG, Salamanders and Iron Hands) could be reduced to a couple of novellas and short story collections. I guess it didn't help that one of the BL editors is a massive Salamanders fanboy (and author).

 

The Imperium Secundus arc also could be reduced to a single novel. I like the idea, but the execution dragged on too long.

[DarkChaplain]

The Imperium Secundus arc also could be reduced to a single novel. I like the idea, but the execution dragged on too long.

I'll repeat my point from a few years back:

 

The problem with Imperium Secundus wasn't that it was too long narratively - in fact, it was wrapped up within 3 books, one of which was almost entirely about ending that arc with a justification - it was always more of a release schedule / corporate problem.

 

IS was planned, at least in the early stages, as far back as book 16, where Rules of Engagement dropped the first hints. But it didn't truly manifest until The Unremembered Empire - and even then it wasn't truly a thing until the very last pages of the novel, after all the superhero primarch fighting.

 

....and then the series went through crisis, due to corporate shifts at GW/BL. Books were put on hold, plans delayed, authors jumped ship, at least for a while. There was a massive gap in releases, a course shift in terms of marketing material, and Imperium Secundus didn't get an actual continuation until more than two years later - a few months more if we ignore that Pharos had an early digital release for Christmas, but wasn't officially out until spring. The only things we had in between was an early section of Deathfire, before the Salamanders left Ultramar, and a few shorts that didn't get into print until the arc was already over or close to being over.

 

They established IS... and then did nothing with it in the short term, and by the time they did get back to it, feelings on the concept had soured so much - both within the fanbase as well as the editorial department, I'd wager - that the next impulse was to wrap it up asap. In that same timeframe, pretty much every ongoing arc and plotline was being wrapped up as well, at least in so far as they'd get the relevant parties to Terra. I'd guess that the plans for the The Iron Tenth novel, which was scrapped and rolled into Old Earth, partially, also got changed during this era.

 

So we had an era where the Heresy was set to expand and explore new areas and narrative arcs followed by corporate cataclysm and then followed up with a hasty reconsolidation of the series outline that left many of the ongoing developments in the dust, seen more as baggage to be discarded sooner rather than later, instead of setup worth a payoff.

 

Imperium Secundus is a victim of its time, a failure in execution from the top level, rather than the authorial one. I don't think it overstayed its welcome by its narrative length, but by its lackluster usage and bad scheduling.

[Moonreaper666]

Russ and the Wolves needed expanded on once the Heresy became a bigger conflict. Of course we can argue about how it was done, but just leaving them out after Prospero would have been impossible to fit coherently into the broader military campaign, unless you retconned things to have them be utterly devastated there.

Got their asses handed to them by the Alpha Legion. Without the help of the Dark Angels they would have been wiped out back then.

 

Trisolian wiped out 4/5ths of the Wolves.

 

The Heresy and Scouring reduced them to 3.5k Marines

[JeffJedi]

Typhus vs Corswain completely skipped, twice.

[Moonreaper666]

Typhus vs Corswain completely skipped, twice.

Typhus is probably going to fight Garro

 

Corswain is probably going to fight Daemons to protect the Astronomican

[sitnam]

 

 

I think the sheer number of words taken up by the Shattered Legions (RG, Salamanders and Iron Hands) could be reduced to a couple of novellas and short story collections. I guess it didn't help that one of the BL editors is a massive Salamanders fanboy (and author).

 

As an Iron Hands fan, I feel pretty shafted by their BL portrayal during the HH series, and it pretty much killed my interest in finishing the Heresy as a series.

[Guest Triszin]

We know of Russ. Due to great wolf