Alpharius..., Is it just me or?

[Grand_Master_Alpharius]

So according to this article on warcom, it definitely implies that Dorn may not have killed Alpharius after all!! Which for years has been the battle cry of Imperial Fist players as the only real claim to fame that their boy Dorn has. So given that that seems to fly in the face of those who adamantly stick to the story that "Captain Boring Pants" killed our lord and saviour, I think this is a great piece of news/pseudo official confirmation! 

 

HAIL HYDRA!

 

What does everyone else think?

[Lord Marshal]

It's just the Community interns memeing because they know it drives posts like this.

 

The book and author confirmed the real Alpharius died, I don't think you can get much more confirmation than that.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I'm with Lord Marshal on this one. Sorry brother.

[Grand_Master_Alpharius]

It's just the Community interns memeing because they know it drives posts like this.

 

The book and author confirmed the real Alpharius died, I don't think you can get much more confirmation than that.

I still have hope and, I think it's fun to speculate.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Grand_Master_Alpharius

[lansalt]

I think the death of Alpharius is a bit of a red herring in the sense that his primarch novel seems to imply that he and Omegon became interchangeable. So one twin died for sure at the hands of Dorn, but since both were called the same at some point, is not false to say that "Alpharius died", it just doesn't explain the whole thing (which fits perfectly the AL).

 

The real mistery is: what the other twin, "Omegon", has been doing for ten thousand years? There's hints about him in the Sons of the Hydra novel and a favourite theory of mine about him in 40k, but a lot of people here dislike it, heh

[thraxdown]

I think the death of Alpharius is a bit of a red herring in the sense that his primarch novel seems to imply that he and Omegon became interchangeable. So one twin died for sure at the hands of Dorn, but since both were called the same at some point, is not false to say that "Alpharius died", it just doesn't explain the whole thing (which fits perfectly the AL).

 

The real mistery is: what the other twin, "Omegon", has been doing for ten thousand years? There's hints about him in the Sons of the Hydra novel and a favourite theory of mine about him in 40k, but a lot of people here dislike it, heh

What theory?

[lansalt]

 

I think the death of Alpharius is a bit of a red herring in the sense that his primarch novel seems to imply that he and Omegon became interchangeable. So one twin died for sure at the hands of Dorn, but since both were called the same at some point, is not false to say that "Alpharius died", it just doesn't explain the whole thing (which fits perfectly the AL).

 

The real mistery is: what the other twin, "Omegon", has been doing for ten thousand years? There's hints about him in the Sons of the Hydra novel and a favourite theory of mine about him in 40k, but a lot of people here dislike it, heh

What theory?

 

Omegon is the true identity of Cypher, the top DA's fallen.

IMO there's plenty of clues about it in the fluff, and the only one that makes sense in the grand scheme of things, not to mention his feats are way beyond what a Heresy-era DA veteran could do.

[nusphigor]

Neh guilliman could have recognized him when they went to terra.

 

The true question is, who killed guilliman in eskrador?

Did he eliminate omegon or another top warlord who was calling himself alpharius?

[lansalt]

Neh guilliman could have recognized him when they went to terra.

 

The true question is, who killed guilliman in eskrador?

Did he eliminate omegon or another top warlord who was calling himself alpharius?

His novel stablishes that he was capable of hiding in plain sight in front of his brothers for many years, if they weren't expecting his presence. Even Dorn had to know he was already in a place to detect him.

 

IIRC The UM and Guilliman denied Eskrador even happened.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Until such time as we get a novelization about Eskrador, I will stand by the assumption it never happened.

[ChazSexington]

Not a chance. As mentioned, the author confirmed Alpharius had gone the way of the dodo. 

 

 

Pet peeve: Hail Hydra is a Marvel comics reference, not an Alpha Legion motto. Hydra dominatus is the Alpha Legion's motto/battle cry. 

 

Neh guilliman could have recognized him when they went to terra.

The true question is, who killed guilliman in eskrador?
Did he eliminate omegon or another top warlord who was calling himself alpharius?

 

This.

 

I mean, yeah, with the help of plastic surgery, he could hide amongst people that looked like him. It'd be a bit of a dead giveaway amongst people that didn't look like him. 

 

The battle of Eskrador probably didn't happen and it is just the Alpha Legion pretending that they lost their Primarch. In the Index Astartes article, IIRC, it's stated the UMs don't even have records of the battle. And as glorified secretaries and bean counters, I doubt they would've lost the records of their own Primarch, toilet seat symbol and all, vanquishing ol' Alpharius. 

Pet peeve: Hail Hydra is a Marvel comics reference, not an Alpha Legion motto. Hydra dominatus is the Alpha Legion's motto/battle cry. 

[Lay]

If you reeeaaally want to split hairs, the Ultramarines only questioned the veracity of a certain document retelling the Eskrador incident.

 

There are some black library novels that seem to canonize it as a an actual event - but you can also dismiss those due poor writing and in-universe bias: Respectively, the Blood Ravens novels written by the infamous CS Goto state that the Ultramarines have a shrine in the Eskrador system in remembrance of the battle. And the novel Sons of the Hydra has an Alpha Legion warlord called Angel Bane who *reportedly* fought on Eskrador and developed a hatred against the Ultramarines and their successors as a result.

 

In the end it doesn't really matter, the current codex has established that Alpharius has been slain "more than once across the span of Imperial history", so there's at least two "deaths" that have been officially acknowledged by the Imperium; three if Dorn's kill was kept a secret, and that's not counting every slain Chaos lord calling himself Alpharius for funsies. So even if the battle of Eskrador counts, it's not the only account.

 

My prediction is that GW is never going to reveal whether one of the twins is still alive. Any story touching on that is only going to raise more questions than answers. Alpha Legion fluff is funny like that.

[nusphigor]

 

 

Neh guilliman could have recognized him when they went to terra.

 

The true question is, who killed guilliman in eskrador?

Did he eliminate omegon or another top warlord who was calling himself alpharius?

His novel stablishes that he was capable of hiding in plain sight in front of his brothers for many years, if they weren't expecting his presence. Even Dorn had to know he was already in a place to detect him.

 

IIRC The UM and Guilliman denied Eskrador even happened.

Fair point. Except Guilliman was already on his toes when the attack on terra by his brothers when he escorted cypher. And also he recognized him from a long time ago, so he was wary of the dark angel's motives from the start.

 

On the eskrador thing, one could say that its the legion's propaganda campaign, true. But then everything on the alpha legion is a lie, isn't it? XD

Edited May 3, 2022 by nusphigor

[nusphigor]

If you reeeaaally want to split hairs, the Ultramarines only questioned the veracity of a certain document retelling the Eskrador incident.

 

There are some black library novels that seem to canonize it as a an actual event - but you can also dismiss those due poor writing and in-universe bias: Respectively, the Blood Ravens novels written by the infamous CS Goto state that the Ultramarines have a shrine in the Eskrador system in remembrance of the battle. And the novel Sons of the Hydra has an Alpha Legion warlord called Angel Bane who *reportedly* fought on Eskrador and developed a hatred against the Ultramarines and their successors as a result.

 

In the end it doesn't really matter, the current codex has established that Alpharius has been slain "more than once across the span of Imperial history", so there's at least two "deaths" that have been officially acknowledged by the Imperium; three if Dorn's kill was kept a secret, and that's not counting every slain Chaos lord calling himself Alpharius for funsies. So even if the battle of Eskrador counts, it's not the only account.

 

My prediction is that GW is never going to reveal whether one of the twins is still alive. Any story touching on that is only going to raise more questions than answers. Alpha Legion fluff is funny like that.

Another thing to have in mind on the ultramarines of the dawn of war series is that they were alpha legion in disguise from the get go (actually the chaplain and his forces in winter crusade were disguised to obtain the titan weapon), so it would stand to reason that they idolized the shrine in eskrador, if only to keep building on the lie that alpharius (omegon) is dead.

 

But still one of the things black library always says is that everything is canon but not everything is true, just different recolections of the same events without a place to confirm them because the galaxy is a huge place, the administratum is f'd up and us nerds always whine and fight about stupid things xD

[Xenith]

Having read this recently, for inspiration for an AL force:

 

 

The battle of Eskrador probably didn't happen and it is just the Alpha Legion pretending that they lost their Primarch. In the Index Astartes article, IIRC, it's stated the UMs don't even have records of the battle. 

 

The IA article makes it very clear it did happen - the UM pulled out and raced back to terra while the AL cleaned up afterwards - Imperials even came back to the world afterwards to find no trace

 

If you reeeaaally want to split hairs, the Ultramarines only questioned the veracity of a certain document retelling the Eskrador incident.

 

And so they would, it's pretty embarrasing to have your primarch outwitted by a bunch of 'leaderless' astartes. As you say, it's the un-named sergeants account of the battles that the UM and other inquisitors question - though the inquisitor compiling the report then gets killed for stating how much of a threat the Alphas actually are - so the other inquisitors questioning the report are either covering up the existence/severity of the AL threat, are AL agents themselves, or both. 

 

As to whether it was Alpharius/Omegon, Dorn shows quite clearly that he knows exactly who the primarch is. It's unlikely that Guilliman would confuse another marine for alpharius, especially once they recovered the body - a confirmation autopsy would do that. 

 

It might be Omegon giving in to grief. What it could also be, is Omegon sacrificing himself to sow further dissent. Imagine the conversation between Dorn and Guilliman on Terra afterwards. They would both claim to have slain Alpharius, and be 100% adamant about it. That would mess with their heads more than anything I think, as they would both be right, but convinced the other is wrong, further dividing them and making them mistrust one another. 

[lansalt]

For what's worth, Gathering Storm III: Rise of the Primarch mentions a statue of Guilliman fighting Alpharius in the Temple of Correction where he was in stasis, and it's destroyed during the battle when he is awakened. So the 40k era UM definitely believed that they fought each other at some point, probably at Eskrador, despite how innacurate and mythical the account of the battle may be after ten thousand years.

 

And this is the side text where Guilliman meets Cypher:

 

 

Through dancing flames, Guilliman watched the robed figure approach. The Primarch did not recognise this cowled Space Marine, but he knew the Legion whose colours he wore.

‘You are Roboute Guilliman,’ said the mysterious Space Marine as he stopped outside the Primarch’s cell.
‘And you are one of the Lion’s sons,’ replied Guilliman. ‘You keep questionable company, Dark Angel. Who are you, and why are you here?’

‘I can free you,’ replied the hooded figure, deigning not to answer the Primarch’s questions.

Realising that no further explanation was forthcoming, Guilliman frowned. ‘Can,’ he rumbled. ‘Not will. What do you want in return?’

‘You will take me to Terra,’ replied the Dark Angel. ‘To the Throne.’

The malefic flames crackled and the distant sounds of battle rumbled on as Guilliman’s silence stretched long. Even bound in sorcerous chains, the Primarch’s presence was immense, his steady glare thunderous. Yet the Dark Angel stood unwavering, like a statue carved from granite. Guilliman strained once more against his bonds, and again found them unyielding.

‘It seems that my choices are to rot here, or accede to your demand,’ said the Primarch slowly. ‘The former would be to fail in my duty, so I suppose it will have to be the latter. But understand this, Dark Angel. If you seek to trick or manipulate me, nothing in this galaxy will save you.’

One corner of the stranger’s mouth lifted into a small, bitter smile. ‘As you say,’ he muttered, then brandished the runic stone held in his off hand. The flames of Guilliman’s cell died away in response, followed by the fires of every other cell around the chamber’s edge.

 

I like to think this was Omegon enjoying every minute of the ironic situation. It fits too well.

[Hathor42]

it's canon he's probably dead until another author makes another book in which turns out he's not dead. 

[Karhedron]

I think one of the twins is still around. Remember, Dorn kept Alpharius's death on Pluto a secret so the the Imperium-at-large, Alpharius was still out there. I think Eskrador was either staged or the stories invented to write Alpharius out of the Imperium's consciousness. No point in hunting for someone who is already dead. This leaves Omegon free to go into deep cover and control things from behind the scenes.

Personally I think we will see all the Primarchs who are not conclusively dead on the tabletop eventually, along with lore covering their return or reappearance.

[Thaelion Hexis]

As a side note Dorn's hand was recovered from where he apparently died. Dorn had cut off Alpharius' hands before killing him. I maintain the idea that Omegon was aboard the Sword of Sacrilege and repaid the favour. 

[techsoldaten]

Don't know if the question of his mortality matters.

Alpharius' power is not in being a Primarch, but in being able to be nowhere and everywhere. The fact Commanders in his Legion still use his identity is proof of that.

This is something he seemed to understand. Could see him faking his death and living in the shadows or actually dying, and the outcome being the same.

[Karhedron]

On 8/7/2022 at 9:09 AM, Marshal Paul said:

As a side note Dorn's hand was recovered from where he apparently died. Dorn had cut off Alpharius' hands before killing him. I maintain the idea that Omegon was aboard the Sword of Sacrilege and repaid the favour. 

Interesting, my personal head-canon is exactly the opposite. I think Dorn used the Sword of Sacrilege incident to fake his own death. He left behind a Primarch-sized hand as evidence of his demise and vanished into the shadows for <reasons>.