Lessons Learned in HH 1.0 (that should apply to HH 2.0)

[N1SB]

I thought a long time to keep this short.  With Warhmmer Fest previews for Horus Heresy 2.0 ahead, recent discussions reminded me of when I first got into HH/30k/AoD here on Bolter & Chainsword.  I wanted to share what I learned in HH 1.0 that should apply now.

 

These are lessons learned from the tabletop.  It's not Theoretical vs. Practical, not on-paper vs. in-the-field.  It's more like what I wish someone had told me before I knew to ask, before I bought my miniatures, before I painted them.  Open to all experience-sharing.

 

 

+++ Narrative Players Are Not a Monolith +++

 

 

HH, in the paradigm of Open vs. Matched vs. Narrative Play, definitely leans towards the Narrative Play.  However, what I learned, from a screaming match with my good Warhammer friend Timperial Guard, was that Narrative Players aren't all the same.

 

Just for context, Timperial Guard played Death Guard, and he always brought their Primarch Mortarion.  Mortarion in HH was super-effective at fighting Power Armoured Legionnaires, but not optimised for, say, fighting Terminators or Vehicles, thus not an auto-take.  I pressed him too hard on the issue, and he pushed back with how he's a Fluff i.e. Narrative Player...but so was I!  We were arguing the same thing!  Then we realised he focused on recreating the mid- to later HH novels, while I focused on the Forgeworld Black Books.

 

The HH novels were epics that put the Primarchs centre-stage.  The FW Black Books, also called HH, were war documentaries that, like any history, it's more about a confluence of events rather than any individual.  Both of us even read both sources thoroughly.  His point would be that Primarchs were always in the narrative.  I agree, but for that reason, they can't be everywhere at once, so they'd delegate out so they don't have to do everything.  There's an actual unit called a Delgatus, a non-senior officer, to represent that.

 

Narrative Players are not a Monolith, because even the Narrative isn't a Monolith.  It's beyond unreliable narrators as the very medium itself varies.  It's like there are historical war re-enactors, roleplayers, etc. that would all describe themselves as Narrative Players.

 

Simply being aware of this would save you a bad experience, which brings us to the next related point...

 

 

+++ You Can Use Your 40k Minis, Here's How To Get Away With It +++

 

 

Above, I mentioned some Narrative Players were re-enactors, like those Napoleonic War games where players would recreate the battle of Waterloo.  They were sticklers for their minis to have the exact right uniforms, etc., because that was part of the experience.

 

While HH isn't that severe, it's useful to keep the above in mind, I think.  HH does invite that sort of reenactment for Warhammer.

 

HH minis have been out in plastic, like the Mk III and Mk IV power armour, soon pure Mk VI will be readily available, and I think Warhammer Community said all Marks were available to all Legions.  Whatever restrictions there were, they seem to be relaxed now.  I mention this because we used to associate certain Marks to certain Legions...and you may, too.  Like imho Iron Warriors are so into Mk III their Legion icon looks like its helmet, while Mk VI Corvus we'd associate with Raven Guard (it's meant for them), and so on.

 

The paint scheme, I think, can be more important than the model.  Some Legions changed their colours after the Heresy.  I was seriously thinking of a HH 2.0 Detachment of Dark Angels lead by a Delgatus on Bike by using the Ravenwing Command Squad.  The benefit is that Ravenwing still wear black power armour instead of the 40k dark green (as does the Fallen, for that matter).  The Wulfen, however...the model is actually fine, Wulfen were seen on Prospero, but the problem is their 30k armour was ash grey, not 40k icy blue.

 

Seriously, check out if someone in your meta painted 40k Chaos models in their Heresy colours.  They don't look that out of place.  On the other hand, I strongly urge against using Primaris models even though their helmets look like Mk IV.  This is to save you trouble.

 

You may find some people will mention it to you if you use 40k models.  Think in advance how you want to handle those questions.  The honestly best answer may be, "I'm just trying HH 2.0 out, I'll get the era-accurate models if I decide to stay."  I don't think those players are trying to drive players out, they're trying to bring HH minis in.  Over time, I prefer the HH models over old 40k ones and even Primaris Marines; it's mostly to do with how ridiculously thin the legs look in 40k (like if they wear robes, I'm fine).

 

I really like the look of the new Mk VI, but I'm more excited for them in 40k than 30k because...

 

 

+++ All-Terminators, All-Dreadnoughts, All-Predators Armies Are A Thing +++

 

 

It wasn't until I painted my 20th regular Marine that I found out about "Rites of War", because my local friends are bastards.  From what I've seen in the leaked playtest materials, they're still here, and I'm already planning lists around them (and hope they don't change).

 

Rites of War are alternative ways to create army lists.  HH 1.0 and 2.0 uses the old pre-8th Force Organisation Charts where you start with 1 HQ and 2 Troops as a pre-requisite before you get anything else.  Rites of War have their own requirements, but change that.

 

For example, there's a Rite of War where you buy certain HQ types, now Terminators are turned into scoring Troops (Dark Angels players may recognise that in 9th ed).  Another one says you can have Contemptor Dreads as Troops with a special Contemptor Dread HQ, while another lets you have Preds as scoring Troops with a likewise special Pred as HQ.  There is a thing we have to check at the mission-level where maybe they'll say only Infantry scoring unit can take an objective, but we'll just watch for that.

 

The advantage is, starting out, instead of having to paint like 60 Marines, you can do a dozen Dreads or Preds.

 

However, there are restrictions, like all 3 of the above Rites of War require them to be your Primary Detachment, so you can't Ally an All-Termie army with an All-Dread army, because that'd be ridiculous to play against.  Yet there are ways around that, too!

 

(By the above, I refer to a specific example, the Dark Angels have an Ironwing Rite of War that also allows All-Preds.  This Ironwing Rite of War does not specify that it has to be a Primary Detachment.  I plan on making one for starting players to borrow as Allies.)

 

There are actually perfect reasons my local friends didn't tell me about Rites of War (but they're still total bastards for other reasons).  Imagine getting used to playing all Dreads.  It's not a sure-win, but once you get used to it, you'll find it hard to go back to Infantry.

 

As for alternatives to create a HH army list that are powerful...

 

 

+++ Mechanicum Is Also A Thing +++

 

 

I've yet to see HH 2.0 rules for them, but they will come.  So if you can't get into HH 2.0 now, your delay may well be serendipitous.

 

I started out with the Shattered Xth, Iron Hands, with a small Allied Detachment of Mechanicum for flavour.  Pretty soon, from playing, the Mechanicum took over as the Main Detachment with the Iron Hands being relegated to Allies, then pure Mechanicum.

 

My friend, Tourney Tony in Toronto, once described me thusly, "Your true home is Mars."  The reason is the Mechanicum, being Techpriests, just engineered specific weapons to kill the hell out of Marines.  There's a thing called an Ordinatus Ulator.

 

Once you face an Ordinatus Ulator, you'll see why nothing else has to be said.  Except maybe...

 

 

+++ The Custodes Are Obviously Also A Thing +++

 

 

They're also powerful and, in fact, you almost have to use your 40k minis for this.  Whereas Mechanicum seem like game spoilers, Custodes just seem truly good yet still recognisable as playing the game normally (speaking as Mechanicum, we look like cheaters.)

 

So if you play Custodes and/or are Henry Cavill, congratulations, you're in great shape.  We just have to wait for their HH 2.0 rules.

 

 

+++++

 

 

Those were my key takeaways.  None of these are me telling you what you should do, it's me telling you what I wish someone told me.  It would have saved me a lot of money, time, effort in HH 1.0, and that is what I hope for you in HH 2.0.

Edited May 3, 2022 by N1SB

[Cpt_Reaper]

I hope there is support for the Great Crusade as much as there is the Heresy itself. My plan is a Dark Angels/Iron Warriors force from the Crusade, but I've been told I can't because HH2.0 will be Heresy only.

[Beren]

I hope there is support for the Great Crusade as much as there is the Heresy itself. My plan is a Dark Angels/Iron Warriors force from the Crusade, but I've been told I can't because HH2.0 will be Heresy only.

I mean, there probably wouldn't be official support for enemies from the great crusade, but there's no reason you can't theme your army on an earlier crusade task group that's gone without overhaul and resupply, or is only being supplied with crusade era holdovers.

 

The new Kratos tank, for example, is supposed to be a holdover from the Great Crusade.

Edited May 3, 2022 by Beren

[MARK0SIAN]

I think this thread is a great idea, I wish something like it had been around when I started so I’ll chime in with a couple of things I wish I’d known/realised/paid more attention to when I first started with heresy. I’m generally a collector/painter in how I approach armies and a player second so if some of my points seem obvious to players, that’s why :)

 

1) Look carefully and research the models you want for your legion, particularly when it comes to the legion specific stuff or the Forgeworld models. Many units such as breachers are sold in a pack of five. However five is not a legal unit size for them, you need at least ten. So check carefully that you’re buying enough to actually field them.

 

2) With some of the Legion kits like Templar brethren and phalanx warders, their kit isn’t a full kit, it’s an upgrade kit but it doesn’t mesh brilliantly with the plastic range due to a lack of appropriate arm options in some cases. It means you have to scrounge around for the right arms or buy alternates or buy another kit from Forgeworld to combine with the first kit.

 

3) Pretty much any legion can be geared to play however you want, so don’t get hung up on whether they match what you want in your playstyle. Obviously if you play something like world eaters as a shooty army then you’ll be missing out on the benefit of their rules that favour melee and you might struggle to make them quite as good at shooting as someone like iron warriors but they’d still be viable. Because all the legions have access to the same basic units they can all shoot and all fight to a decent degree, even if they might not match the prowess of a shooty or melee centric legion.

 

4) Some units at Forgeworld go in and out of stock quite regularly and sometimes for extended periods. In particular I would buy any transfer sheets you want early and in enough quantity. I think the Emperors children sheet was out of stock for over a year.

 

5) Some types of force are significantly cheaper to collect than others. This obviously might change if more of the range transitions to plastic but at the moment, forces that can make good use of the plastic infantry are a lot cheaper than something like a jetbike army which is an insane amount of cash. So plan your army to take advantage of the cost differences if you can.

 

If I can think of any more I’ll add them in later :)

Edited May 3, 2022 by MARK0SIAN

[MegaVolt87]

Just wanted to also say, don't start heavily investing in things just how the 2.0 leaks are looking. The leaks are old and the end product is going to differ. Buy the models because of the models, not what they MIGHT be like in 2.0. 

[Closet Skeleton]

 

The paint scheme, I think, can be more important than the model.  Some Legions changed their colours after the Heresy.  I was seriously thinking of a HH 2.0 Detachment of Dark Angels lead by a Delgatus on Bike by using the Ravenwing Command Squad.  The benefit is that Ravenwing still wear black power armour instead of the 40k dark green (as does the Fallen, for that matter).  The Wulfen, however...the model is actually fine, Wulfen were seen on Prospero, but the problem is their 30k armour was ash grey, not 40k icy blue.

 

Funnily enough the 'Eavy Metal 40k Wulfen are actually mis-painted as in the Campaign book that introduced them they're supposed to be 13th Company who still use the old scheme.

 

Technically all armour marks are Heresy marks except for VIII and X. Whole units in Mark IV post Istvaan is the least fluffy kind of HH army. Even the images in the Black Books tend to show troopers in mixed suits closer to the 40k tactical kit than any of the HH mono-mark kits.

 

 

I hope there is support for the Great Crusade as much as there is the Heresy itself. My plan is a Dark Angels/Iron Warriors force from the Crusade, but I've been told I can't because HH2.0 will be Heresy only.

 

I don't have a HH army due to there being no plastic Mark V but if they actually released plastic Mark II I'd buy some for a purely display Luna Wolves detatchment.

Edited May 3, 2022 by Closet Skeleton

[Noserenda]

Just wanted to also say, don't start heavily investing in things just how the 2.0 leaks are looking. The leaks are old and the end product is going to differ. Buy the models because of the models, not what they MIGHT be like in 2.0. 

 

^This, rules are temporary, models you like are forever. 

 

Similarly, ignore the haters and collect the army you want to play, the 30k era is much richer and more varied than the rivet counters like to admit and the majority of the time they are wrong to boot :D 

 

Also, dont feel locked on to the Age of Darkness era, this particular niche began with Pre Heresy crusade armies and you can build a force of any era with the rules currently, if anything 2nd edition seems less prescriptive than before.

[Marshal Mittens]

Personally I am excited to play big games with lots of bolter marines. I want to build Dark Angels and Sons of Horus with at least 60 tactical marines each.

 

The massed marine on marine combat is very appealing.

Edited May 3, 2022 by Marshall Mittens

[Brofist]

 

Just wanted to also say, don't start heavily investing in things just how the 2.0 leaks are looking. The leaks are old and the end product is going to differ. Buy the models because of the models, not what they MIGHT be like in 2.0.

Similarly, ignore the haters and collect the army you want to play

 

Unless its custdoes, of course

[Slips]

My only words of caution is to PLEASE read the rules in their entirety. So many rules questions are solved by just reading the book.

[Noserenda]

Reminded of this again today when a local tournament organiser is pushing a narrative event which is first come first served on special characters in an effort to limit them which has stopped me coming every time because i think its absurd but their ideas are in theory as valid as mine :P ;) 

[SkimaskMohawk]

If you want to limit special characters, just ban them. Making them limited to whichever players first include them is insane.

 

That being said, a lot of list building options are locked behind special characters, so i think having the potential of duplicates is well worth it.

[Scammel]

This might comes across as snobbish given the costs involved, but I know I and many other players respond really well to seeing Heresy-unique units and marks across the table. Firedrake Terminators spilling out of a Spartan with a Deredeo looming in the background are a joy to see even as they're bearing down on me, while it feels a little disappointing to face a fleet of 'modern' Rhinos or Assault Marines.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Scammel

[LameBeard]

If you want to limit special characters, just ban them. Making them limited to whichever players first include them is insane.

 

That being said, a lot of list building options are locked behind special characters, so i think having the potential of duplicates is well worth it.

If it’s the first-come-first-served you don’t like, but you don’t want duplicates, you can try a bidding system. Whoever bids higher gets the special character - and pays the points. There are several ways to do this, none is perfect, but can be fun.

 

I get it that some people really want to try to recreate a particular war zone, and it doesn’t “make sense” to have every primarch running around that planet, but it’ll be a long time before I need to worry about these kind of things - a couple of nicely painted armies on the table and I will be happy to tell my own story about it later.

[Gorgoff]

My only words of caution is to PLEASE read the rules in their entirety. So many rules questions are solved by just reading the book.

This!

Read the rules at least once and whenever you don't know a thing please take out the rulebook and read the whole secrion by yourself. Don't just rely on the word of others. If yoz want to know, read the damn rules. It clears questions and it makes you a faster and better player.

[Noserenda]

The special characters thing is just old hangups most of the time, wanting to play our Eidolon or Ferrus Manus' story is just as valid as unnamed captain 7 or a homebrewed character. We dont expect our peers to sculpt their own characters, or demand they personally paint them, why demand they write the fluff?

The using one character time at a thing is weird because it at best assumes all of the battles are happening at exactly the same time, which just feels unlikely in the majority of cases, though perhaps if one was assuming the whole event was one battle split into manageable chunks? Not that thats ever been the case in events ive been to or read about.

Bidding could work, its certainly a lot fairer than whoever sees the FB event first and has cash ready! 

It also does not help that the one Special character my Sisters can field is always bagsied by a damn Custodes player :P 

[OttoVonAwesome]

Can't this be solved with evil clones from a mirror dimension?

[Marshal Mittens]

Can't this be solved with evil clones from a mirror dimension?

One of the forces in the mirror match is the Alpha legion in disguise!

[Mogsam]

The special characters thing is just old hangups most of the time, wanting to play our Eidolon or Ferrus Manus' story is just as valid as unnamed captain 7 or a homebrewed character. We dont expect our peers to sculpt their own characters, or demand they personally paint them, why demand they write the fluff?

 

The using one character time at a thing is weird because it at best assumes all of the battles are happening at exactly the same time, which just feels unlikely in the majority of cases, though perhaps if one was assuming the whole event was one battle split into manageable chunks? Not that thats ever been the case in events ive been to or read about.

 

Bidding could work, its certainly a lot fairer than whoever sees the FB event first and has cash ready!

 

It also does not help that the one Special character my Sisters can field is always bagsied by a damn Custodes player :P

We strongly discouraged primarches, special characters and superheavies at our event.

 

Partially because fearless primarchs broke the scenarios, but also to encourage people to bring more fun lists rather than bring the crutch along.

 

We also added in house rules to make scoring units matter, which made for a much more relaxed "meta" where taking the strongest units didn't matter if you couldn't keep your 10 sisters of silence alive.

 

I'm sure we will run another event where you can bring all the toys out, but sometimes it's nice to have faceless goons fighting rather than the greatest 40 heroes of the galaxy.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The scoring thing is really odd, because the missions are really odd.

 

The book missions kind of de-emphasize scoring units, but also basically want you to make your own missions. The blurb telling you to and including first blood as a secondary option reflects that.

 

They also didn't exist until book...5? If you wanted a pickup game of 30k you'd roll for it off the main 40k rules. Which were all scoring objective holding except for kill points and relic. So scoring was very important for the first 3 years, until the new missions that kind of threw out the importance of the concept.

 

For what it's worth, my main group has played the same mission, one that was in the game from 5th-7th; d3+2 objectives with pitched battle, hammer and anvil, and table quarters as deployment options. Its worked for 5th-7th, 30k, KT2018, AT2018 and aos.

 

The core missions are just very abstract and rather poorly constructed. Kill points was only ever a spoiler for msu and didn't encourage fun gameplay, so idk why it features so heavily. Random objective values at the end game is terrible. Rushing into your opponents deployment for both sides is thematically off, not to mention how its another spoiler mission. They all read as campaign missions, but are removed from the set deployment zone and attacker/defender context that are needed to make them work properly.

Edited May 7, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk

[Mogsam]

This is why we produced custom objective based missions. It levels the field somewhat when it's all objective based as it becomes about the mission, not tabling someone.

[The Scorpion]

The special characters thing is just old hangups most of the time, wanting to play our Eidolon or Ferrus Manus' story is just as valid as unnamed captain 7 or a homebrewed character. We dont expect our peers to sculpt their own characters, or demand they personally paint them, why demand they write the fluff?

 

The using one character time at a thing is weird because it at best assumes all of the battles are happening at exactly the same time, which just feels unlikely in the majority of cases, though perhaps if one was assuming the whole event was one battle split into manageable chunks? Not that thats ever been the case in events ive been to or read about.

 

Bidding could work, its certainly a lot fairer than whoever sees the FB event first and has cash ready!

 

It also does not help that the one Special character my Sisters can field is always bagsied by a damn Custodes player :P

Plus, the special characters look awesome and I wanna colect minis.

 

Some of them look so good that it's worth building an entire list around them.