Post-AoC Rhinos, Razorbacks, Preds, Vindicators, etc.

[N1SB]

I had An Idear, but I would honestly welcome honest feedback, because if you shoot it down you'd just save me time/effort/money.

 

The Question - has the recent Balance Datasheet introducing Armour of Contempt improved Rhino STC-Vehicles, like...the Rhino, Razorbacks, Preds, Vindicators and so on please?  Perhaps something exotic like the Forgeworld Laser Vindicator Destroyer, even?  The Whirlwind has been nerfed, that I know.

 

An example of what I was thinking - Vindicators with the Siege Shield upgrade benefiting from the new AoC rules...maybe?  I dunno.

 

Just exploring things.  I'll tell you my idea and where I'm coming from.  I kinda was thinking of doing a project of 2 ranges of models, the Sororitas Tanks and the new Beakie Marines, and realised if I made them the Red Templars Chapter (only really ever showed up in old "how to paint Space Marines" guides), so I don't have to file off the Fleur de Lys.  Yes, I am both that stupid AND that lazy.  I just think it'd look so good.

[Grand_Master_Alpharius]

I usually only run rhino chasis with Chaos these days (rhinos, vindicators and a predator), but they do seem to be a bit more sturdy against anti-tank fire. What Has happened mostly to them though, is that they have been destroyed under a hail of anti-infantry gunfire, mostly bolters, it's mildly disconcerting!  

[Captain Idaho]

The Vindicator Laser Destroyer is a brilliant weapon system, up there with what we see from new Tau and Eldar weapons. Can't have the Siege Shield but still will benefit from AoC.

 

I think Rhinos are still quality. Extra survivability and if you have target saturation then keeping the Rhino alive is all the more easier.

 

Predators lack killing power. I want to love the Drstructor variant but it is just too inconsistent despite having a D3 weapon. Maybe in a new Codex it'll get S8 and that'll make a difference.

[Karhedron]

Rhinos and Razorbacks are OK-ish. They are metals boxes that get your infantry from A to B. The TLAC Razorback is a decent dakkaboat if you are running Firstborn and is cheap enough to spam. The Predator is still a poor MBT and is overpriced with poor weapons as long as Lascannons remain D6 damage.

 

Now the Vindicator is a different kettle of fish. T8 makes it significantly more resilient vs Melta than T7 platforms. The 2+ save from the Siege Shield works really well with AoC. If you are running Space Wolves you can pair with light cover from the Stormcaller psychic power for a 1+ save. Yes the main gun is swingy with a damage output of anywhere from 1 - 36 wounds. But it is a lot cheaper than a fully loaded Predator for a much more durable tank.

 

Although it is swingy, it is cheap enough and tough enough that your opponent will have to make an effort to remove it simply on the risk that you roll hot. I am seriously considering adding a Vindicator to my SW army.

[TheNewman]

The thing about Vindicators is three of them is lot more than three times better than one of them, because it mitigates how wildly swingy they can be. No gun should have a 1-36 damage output range.

 

The Stalker is worth a mention too. It's not a huge amount of Dakka if there are no planes to shoot at and AoC definitely hurts it, but it's still a cheap T8 platform if you can buff it's AP any.

Edited May 5, 2022 by TheNewman

[BloodyB]

As mentioned, the T8 versions of the rhino-chassis are a lot more impressive now. I think they still lack killing power, but they can at least take a bit of a kicking now.

 

The basic rhino is a lot better just because bolt rifles don't tickle it into submission as easily now, I think it was the most efficient transport for marines before, and it got a good bit more useful now. The same goes for razorbacks, but I don't actually use them for transporting.

 

The Whirlwind's nerfing isn't as bad as it seems, since it was never powerful in itself. The strat works on the hit, so just take the anti-infantry, and it still denies overwatch/defend just the same. Who really cares about that one wound that didn't go through? 125pts to set up some charges is still a good deal, even if a few incidental wounds don't happen now.

 

I don't know if this thread includes Land Raiders in it's purview, but they got a lot better, just for being able to save meltas on a 5+ is great. They still die to doomsday cannons and such, but those weapons kind of should carve apart tanks easily. They are still horrifically overcosted, but baby steps have been taken.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I had An Idear, but I would honestly welcome honest feedback, because if you shoot it down you'd just save me time/effort/money.

 

The Question - has the recent Balance Datasheet introducing Armour of Contempt improved Rhino STC-Vehicles, like...the Rhino, Razorbacks, Preds, Vindicators and so on please?  Perhaps something exotic like the Forgeworld Laser Vindicator Destroyer, even?  The Whirlwind has been nerfed, that I know.

 

An example of what I was thinking - Vindicators with the Siege Shield upgrade benefiting from the new AoC rules...maybe?  I dunno.

 

Just exploring things.  I'll tell you my idea and where I'm coming from.  I kinda was thinking of doing a project of 2 ranges of models, the Sororitas Tanks and the new Beakie Marines, and realised if I made them the Red Templars Chapter (only really ever showed up in old "how to paint Space Marines" guides), so I don't have to file off the Fleur de Lys.  Yes, I am both that stupid AND that lazy.  I just think it'd look so good.

 

So I have two thoughts on this subject.

 

1) It sounds like a cool project. Editions change cool armies stick around.

 

2) How do you plan on using the army? Cause if it's for pickup games or leagues I'd have a different expectation then I would for tournaments. 

 

I might not be the best guy to ask for advice from because I mainly keep tabs on the competitive trends so that I don't get salty and cause its cheap entertainment lol. That said I don't think marines vehicles got good, so it really comes down to how passionate you are about it.

[Grand_Master_Alpharius]

As mentioned, the T8 versions of the rhino-chassis are a lot more impressive now. I think they still lack killing power, but they can at least take a bit of a kicking now.

 

The basic rhino is a lot better just because bolt rifles don't tickle it into submission as easily now, I think it was the most efficient transport for marines before, and it got a good bit more useful now. The same goes for razorbacks, but I don't actually use them for transporting.

 

Single bolter fire sure, but massed concentrated fire and they fold like tinfoil.

 

The Whirlwind's nerfing isn't as bad as it seems, since it was never powerful in itself. The strat works on the hit, so just take the anti-infantry, and it still denies overwatch/defend just the same. Who really cares about that one wound that didn't go through? 125pts to set up some charges is still a good deal, even if a few incidental wounds don't happen now.

 

Sure, but a suppressor squad can do the same thing for 25 less points though and they're a bit better off because they can fly and deepstrike.

 

I don't know if this thread includes Land Raiders in it's purview, but they got a lot better, just for being able to save meltas on a 5+ is great. They still die to doomsday cannons and such, but those weapons kind of should carve apart tanks easily. They are still horrifically overcosted, but baby steps have been taken.

 

Yes, sadly my landraiders are just sitting on the shelf looking awesome but all forlorn at their extreme lack of killy. I hate that they are gathering so much dust, but until they drop drastically in points I just can't justify using them. 

Edited May 6, 2022 by Grand_Master_Alpharius

[N1SB]

 

So I have two thoughts on this subject.

 

1) It sounds like a cool project. Editions change cool armies stick around.

 

2) How do you plan on using the army? Cause if it's for pickup games or leagues I'd have a different expectation then I would for tournaments. 

 

I might not be the best guy to ask for advice from because I mainly keep tabs on the competitive trends so that I don't get salty and cause its cheap entertainment lol. That said I don't think marines vehicles got good, so it really comes down to how passionate you are about it.

 

 

Good point.  You know how we usually say something like, "I'm not a competitive player, but I don't want to get steamrolled, either."

 

I've come to a point where I'm like, "It doesn't matter how cool an army is, if it never gets fielded."  Especially since HH 2.0 is around the corner, right?

 

So my take is, is there at least an interesting angle to this?  My most played army was probably my Nurglings + Renegade Guard Artillery in early 8th, because it was so weird both other players and I wanted to try it.  In short, not TOO passionate about it, because I might consider painting Beakies in a Badab War campaign instead.  On that note, Brother BloodyB, thanks for asking about Land Raiders, but I probably won't look into that.  I'm focused on using Sororitas Vehicles for Red Templars, I could convert a Vindicator out of something of theirs I think, but not a Land Raider.

 

Actually, if the Red Templars had been in the Badab War, this Sororitas Tank idea + Badab War together would commit me to the idea.

[Karhedron]

I have just been comparing the Vindicator and Predator Annihilator and it shows just how badly overpriced the poor Predator is. The quad lascannon version costs 30 points more than a Vindicator but has almost exactly the same damage output against most targets. The average against MSU squads and vehicles of both platforms is so close as to be virtually equivalent. The Vindicator however has Blast so if you start shooting at larger squads, it pulls ahead. Also, the Vindicator has a 50% high ceiling than the Predator meaning that if you do roll well, you can put out a lot of damage in one go.

 

Yes the Vindicator has shorter range but given the board size in 9th plus the fact that vehicles can move and fire without penalty, this is not much of a draw back. T8/2+ is so much more durable than T7/3+, especially with AoC as to render the Predator redundant. I am not saying the Vindicator is awesome but I think it is at least worthy of consideration if you have other armoured targets like Dreadnoughts in your list.

[Urkh]

Last time I brought two vindicators to a game and my brother's tyranids died in droves (swarms and monsters alike). This was pre AoC, pre new book though.

[Angelus Nex]

I know the sicaran is not a rhino chassis, but it has a 2+ save and is rather fast, and has a decent amount of wounds. Maybe this is a cool unit. I especially like the ap -2 autocannons (-3 in devastator doctrine) and the plasma variant has 6 shots, instead of D6.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

 

 

Good point.  You know how we usually say something like, "I'm not a competitive player, but I don't want to get steamrolled, either."

 

I've come to a point where I'm like, "It doesn't matter how cool an army is, if it never gets fielded."  Especially since HH 2.0 is around the corner, right?

 

So my take is, is there at least an interesting angle to this?  My most played army was probably my Nurglings + Renegade Guard Artillery in early 8th, because it was so weird both other players and I wanted to try it.  In short, not TOO passionate about it, because I might consider painting Beakies in a Badab War campaign instead.  On that note, Brother BloodyB, thanks for asking about Land Raiders, but I probably won't look into that.  I'm focused on using Sororitas Vehicles for Red Templars, I could convert a Vindicator out of something of theirs I think, but not a Land Raider.

 

Actually, if the Red Templars had been in the Badab War, this Sororitas Tank idea + Badab War together would commit me to the idea.

 

 

From your answer I'd really suggest waiting for the next codex. Vehicles just aren't that good right now, and when you compare vindicators/predators to units like the plague burst crawler that see play, AoC doesn't bridge the gap. So, I'd recommend saving for that HH starter, and maybe set some money aside for the tanks but wait for the next codex or edition (if it boosts vehicles in general) before you commit. 

[TheNewman]

 

The Whirlwind's nerfing isn't as bad as it seems, since it was never powerful in itself. The strat works on the hit, so just take the anti-infantry, and it still denies overwatch/defend just the same. Who really cares about that one wound that didn't go through? 125pts to set up some charges is still a good deal, even if a few incidental wounds don't happen now.

Sure, but a suppressor squad can do the same thing for 25 less points though and they're a bit better off because they can fly and deepstrike.

Suppressors don't have to pay for a strat but they only work on infantry, and there are some non-infantry units that are very dangerous to charge. If you can only afford to take one anti-overwatch piece then the Whirlwind is the more general purpose one of the two.

 

Suppressors hit quite a bit harder, and they can split fire, and take advantage of cover, but they also need to expose themselves to return fire to work.

 

It depends on what you're taking them for.

Edited May 6, 2022 by TheNewman

[The Unseen]

Don't forget that the whirlwind start also has fight last. That's at least as big a deal as no overwatch in my opinion.

Being able to make charges into 2 different scary things is huge

[Jaipii]

Wrong topic. Deleted. Edited May 7, 2022 by Jaipii

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Iron Hands can get a Vindicator to an effective 0+ save between siege shield, AoC, and Psysteel. I've been tempted to bring out my Firstborn to try a tank list in fact, but I'm too hyped for new Chaos so it may not happen.

[TheNewman]

Iron Hands can get a Vindicator to an effective 0+ save between siege shield, AoC, and Psysteel. I've been tempted to bring out my Firstborn to try a tank list in fact, but I'm too hyped for new Chaos so it may not happen.

The last list I built I skipped out on the Vindicator because it can't get down to a 0+ from cover, I forgot about Psysteel. That's tempting, but I'm not sure what I'd drop to squeeze it in.