10th edition wishlisting/"How do we fix this mess?" thread

[tychobi]

Realism and 40k do not mix. Not now not ever.  Best you can do for that is have a strong head cannon.  LoWs are fun and function fine under the current rules.  Fun fluffy and by no means the best way to win.  Balance is a separate issue and usually not in the LoWs favour.  If you don't want to play a particular game of Warhammer do not do so but that's on you.

[phandaal]

Just now, tychobi said:

If you don't want to play a particular game of Warhammer do not do so but that's on you.

 

It is on both sides of the table. If someone does not want to play a game with you, it is their choice but it also affects you.

 

Show up enough times with an army that people dislike playing against and eventually you will start having a lot of trouble finding games at all.

 

In the case of Knights, people would find more acceptance if they played BattleTech as opposed to 40k.

[Emperor Ming]

I would prefer super heavies and lords of war to be outside of the normal 2k scene

 

But since capitalism is a thing, we are stuck with them forever

[Scribe]

36 minutes ago, tychobi said:

LoWs are fun and function fine under the current rules. ... Balance is a separate issue and usually not in the LoWs favour.

 

So you see no correlation between LoW/SH units, changes to Weapon Profiles, increases in lethality, and the ability for any gun to wound anything, and this is 'fine' and 'functional'?

[DesuVult]

40 minutes ago, tychobi said:

Realism and 40k do not mix. Not now not ever.  Best you can do for that is have a strong head cannon.  LoWs are fun and function fine under the current rules.  Fun fluffy and by no means the best way to win.  Balance is a separate issue and usually not in the LoWs favour.  If you don't want to play a particular game of Warhammer do not do so but that's on you.

Monoliths do not feel fine and functional to me.

[tychobi]

Why is crapping on someone else's legal preferred play style OK all of a sudden?  40k has had super heavies for as long as I can remember.  Self ban away, elitist poor sports who need their hands held when a game doesn't go their way are no great loss to the greater community.  There are so many great players who know how to counter skew lists and let their dice tell amazing stories of success in the face of terrible odds (RIP CHADOCLES).  The magic of 40k is that these stories are encouraged.  Gulliman surviving 3 volleys from a Shadowsword and charging in to flip it in one round? Been there.  Rampager tossing a chimera into a tank commander and dying in the ensuing explosion?  yup. Dual Astresus tabling all comers but loosing most games to points? Seen it happen.  Petty small visions of what 40k is threaten to rob us all of amazing cinematic moments.  

[Pacific81]

Of course there was one place (amd actually one scale) where Super Heavies and Titans really did belong, and that was Epic.

[Scribe]

4 minutes ago, tychobi said:

40k has had super heavies for as long as I can remember.

 

Yes, in Apocalypse.

 

4 minutes ago, tychobi said:

Self ban away, elitist poor sports who need their hands held when a game doesn't go their way are no great loss to the greater community.

 

I mean...I didnt self ban, I simply sold the army off in parts, because it was bad for the community for me to continue to try and play my All Knight army. For the betterment of everyone else's enjoyment, I set aside what I wanted to play, that was legal, but that the game handles poorly.

 

Elitist where?

[Slave to Darkness]

On 10/18/2022 at 4:39 AM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Like what would a GM even do in 40K?

They would have stopped the arguments over what way the scatter dice is pointing for a start, control any random troops or monsters that are not part of either army, make sure lists are legit, write scenarios for game, settle rules queries . Basically everything a GM would do in DnD. 

 

 

[DesuVult]

I feel one piece of the issue is the way games are organized now.  In 40k the community seems to have shifted towards a pickup game style where you show up on 40k day at your LGS and play whoever.  A knight army has been consistently beatable for most armies if you build for it but at their strongest you had to build for knights to the exclusion of preparing for other armies.

 

In 30k knight armies seem to have been less of an issue despite being entirely immune to many, if not most, weapons.  I feel this is because in the 30k community people still tend to arrange games and factions ahead of time so you know if you are facing knights or even a titan.

[Scribe]

1 minute ago, DesuVult said:

A knight army has been consistently beatable for most armies if you build for it but at their strongest you had to build for knights to the exclusion of preparing for other armies.

 

Exactly my experience.

 

Most people, do not have the luxury of either that prep work, or their collection is not vast enough, to handle such a skewed army list, that a Knight list, presents.

 

This has led to the flaw of 9th. Where weapons profiles are so out of line, as to handle everything, rendering unit profiles, as irrelevant. "What Stratagems did you bring, that matters more."

 

No thanks. :D

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, tychobi said:

Why is crapping on someone else's legal preferred play style OK all of a sudden?  40k has had super heavies for as long as I can remember.  Self ban away, elitist poor sports who need their hands held when a game doesn't go their way are no great loss to the greater community.  There are so many great players who know how to counter skew lists and let their dice tell amazing stories of success in the face of terrible odds (RIP CHADOCLES).  The magic of 40k is that these stories are encouraged.  Gulliman surviving 3 volleys from a Shadowsword and charging in to flip it in one round? Been there.  Rampager tossing a chimera into a tank commander and dying in the ensuing explosion?  yup. Dual Astresus tabling all comers but loosing most games to points? Seen it happen.  Petty small visions of what 40k is threaten to rob us all of amazing cinematic moments.  

No one is scrapping it. Just play a version of 40K tailored to those units.

yes SHs have been around a long time, in a separate ruleset meant just for their use.

all we’re asking for is to go back to that. 
 

SHs in normal 40K is like battle tanks in kill team.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

50 minutes ago, Slave to Darkness said:

They would have stopped the arguments over what way the scatter dice is pointing for a start, control any random troops or monsters that are not part of either army, make sure lists are legit, write scenarios for game, settle rules queries . Basically everything a GM would do in DnD. 

 

 

…40K doesn’t have units that are not part of a players’ list.

We don’t need someone to ensure lists are ‘legit’ if we care that much we can double check ourselves. 
If I want a scenario I am perfectly capable of writing that myself…but that’s what missions are for.

if adults have a dispute they can resolve it like adults or just not play with each other. If kids, that’s what they have parents for.

rules queries? It’s don’t need a 3rd person to open a book and read the rules. If it’s unclear there’s likely already a FAQ, and if not see the above about disputes.

 

A GM would be totally stupid and pointless im 40k

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, tychobi said:

Why is crapping on someone else's legal preferred play style OK all of a sudden?  40k has had super heavies for as long as I can remember.  Self ban away, elitist poor sports who need their hands held when a game doesn't go their way are no great loss to the greater community.  There are so many great players who know how to counter skew lists and let their dice tell amazing stories of success in the face of terrible odds (RIP CHADOCLES).  The magic of 40k is that these stories are encouraged.  Gulliman surviving 3 volleys from a Shadowsword and charging in to flip it in one round? Been there.  Rampager tossing a chimera into a tank commander and dying in the ensuing explosion?  yup. Dual Astresus tabling all comers but loosing most games to points? Seen it happen.  Petty small visions of what 40k is threaten to rob us all of amazing cinematic moments.  

Just like some things shouldn’t hurt other things, somethings shouldn’t be capable of surviving some weapons.

your example of guilliman is one example of that.

in sorry but even a primarch surviving multiple hits from a SH weapon shouldn’t be possible. Maybe an invuln allows him to make the save once but the shield generator gets burnt out after that and can’t be used for the rest of the game…

 

imperial guard crusaders get an invuln. How asinine is it for a human with a shield to survive a manticore missile or a baneblade battle cannon hit?

 

no one is asking for realism, but at some point the absurdity becomes stupid and ridiculous.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, DesuVult said:

I feel one piece of the issue is the way games are organized now.  In 40k the community seems to have shifted towards a pickup game style where you show up on 40k day at your LGS and play whoever.  A knight army has been consistently beatable for most armies if you build for it but at their strongest you had to build for knights to the exclusion of preparing for other armies.

 

In 30k knight armies seem to have been less of an issue despite being entirely immune to many, if not most, weapons.  I feel this is because in the 30k community people still tend to arrange games and factions ahead of time so you know if you are facing knights or even a titan.

My experience with the game has always been the pick up game style since the 90s to the 00s, and and now in the late 10s and into the 20s

 

no one is saying they aren’t beatable, but their inclusion either makes them 

1. Too strong

2. too weak

3. Some really stupid and cheesy rules interactions become necessary like now.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[tychobi]

6 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Just like some things shouldn’t hurt other things, somethings shouldn’t be capable of surviving some weapons.

your example of guilliman is one example of that.

in sorry but even a primarch surviving multiple hits from a SH weapon shouldn’t be possible. Maybe an invuln allows him to make the save once but the shield generator gets burnt out after that and can’t be used for the rest of the game…

 

imperial guard crusaders get an invuln. How asinine is it for a human with a shield to survive a manticore missile or a baneblade battle cannon hit?

 

no one is asking for realism, but at some point the absurdity becomes stupid and ridiculous.

I don't agree.  So glad you are not on the GW team!  40k is absurd. It's a parody by design.  Space magic is stupid but its why you play 40k rather than bolt action. Your head cannon may differ from lore and rules.  Mine certainly does.  

[phandaal]

43 minutes ago, tychobi said:

I don't agree.  So glad you are not on the GW team!  40k is absurd. It's a parody by design.  Space magic is stupid but its why you play 40k rather than bolt action. Your head cannon may differ from lore and rules.  Mine certainly does.  

 

All well and good, but in the real world (from a rules perspective) a super heavy unit has to exist in a space above the "normal" game.

 

A Baneblade or Stompa or Knight or whatever does not operate on the same level as infantry, bikes, or even normal-sized vehicles.

 

Most people recognize this, for good or bad, and react accordingly when choosing whether or not to respond to gaming session invites. Of course, playing in a tournament is a different question since people just play whoever they match with.

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

31 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

All well and good, but in the real world (from a rules perspective) a super heavy unit has to exist in a space above the "normal" game.

 

A Baneblade or Stompa or Knight or whatever does not operate on the same level as infantry, bikes, or even normal-sized vehicles.

 

Most people recognize this, for good or bad, and react accordingly when choosing whether or not to respond to gaming session invites. Of course, playing in a tournament is a different question since people just play whoever they match with.

If a tournament wants to ban superheavies, that's entirely up to the organizers.  No reason not to have rules to accommodate them in the game as a whole, though. 

[Scribe]

4 minutes ago, Inquisitor Eisenhorn said:

If a tournament wants to ban superheavies, that's entirely up to the organizers.  No reason not to have rules to accommodate them in the game as a whole, though. 

 

If the weapons profiles have been developed with respect to handling those SH units thereby devaluing or skewing everything else? I can think of a few reason's to not have the rules accommodate them into the core game.

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

4 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

If the weapons profiles have been developed with respect to handling those SH units thereby devaluing or skewing everything else? I can think of a few reason's to not have the rules accommodate them into the core game.

No reason to skew things, let them be super powerful and hard to kill.  I just think that they make the models, give them have rules and if people don't want to include them in their games, they don't have to. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

16 minutes ago, Inquisitor Eisenhorn said:

If a tournament wants to ban superheavies, that's entirely up to the organizers.  No reason not to have rules to accommodate them in the game as a whole, though. 

Bro there are very good reasons, they’ve been covered several times since this convo about LoWs and what not started, you just choose to ignore those reasons.

2 minutes ago, Inquisitor Eisenhorn said:

No reason to skew things, let them be super powerful and hard to kill.  I just think that they make the models, give them have rules and if people don't want to include them in their games, they don't have to. 

So let them be OP, and dominate anyone who isn’t using them? 
 

that’s a trash view to have on the subject.

 

yes they make the models, and they can have rules…in apocalypse.

 

why are you so adverse to using the models in a game style designed around them?

Edited October 19, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

Just now, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Bro there are very good reasons, they’ve been covered several times since this convo about LoWs and what not started, you just choose to ignore those reasons.

No, should have rules, and you don't have to use them if you don't want to.  It's a very simple point, you just happen to disagree!

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

8 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Bro there are very good reasons, they’ve been covered several times since this convo about LoWs and what not started, you just choose to ignore those reasons.

So let them be OP, and dominate anyone who isn’t using them? 
 

that’s a trash view to have on the subject.

 

yes they make the models, and they can have rules…in apocalypse.

 

why are you so adverse to using the models in a game style designed around them?

 

 

I can think of lots of reasons why I wouldn't want to include a superheavy in a game, but I think that they should have rules because I can also think of some reasons why I would include them sometimes. 

 

 

[phandaal]

6 minutes ago, Inquisitor Eisenhorn said:

 

 

I can think of lots of reasons why I wouldn't want to include a superheavy in a game, but I think that they should have rules because I can also think of some reasons why I would include them sometimes. 

 

 

 

Restricting Superheavies to the largest game modes would probably be a good move.

 

That said, they are not the root cause of problems with 9th edition. Bonkers lethality and rules layering are the main problems with 9th edition, and those are not a response to Knights and the like.

 

i.e., Squats were """balanced""" against pre-nerf Tyranids and pre-nerf Eldar.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

10 minutes ago, Inquisitor Eisenhorn said:

 

 

I can think of lots of reasons why I wouldn't want to include a superheavy in a game, but I think that they should have rules because I can also think of some reasons why I would include them sometimes. 

 

 

Name a good reason aside from “people want them in normal 40K”