Realism in Equipment Design

[Portman]

 

It's not just Space Marine equipment - look at the Leman Russ. A massive barrel, and the commander standing up where the breech should be...

 

 

The biggest issue with the Russ is that it's a 2nd edition model that was never really changed in design. Look at the old school Rhino based vehicles and Land Raiders. Massively redesigned. That should have happened with the Russ too.

 

Just look at the FW Russes, they're definitely better. Not perfect, but they're limited to work with the current design. Even then they at least moved the hatch back and offset it. So it's not directly behind the breech. They made the front hull look a bit sleeker. 

 

 

Would be nice if GW also reduced the height of the hull and gave it some suspension as well. 

 

 

Now that is cool - I do like that! 

 

It's not that I don't like the LR as such, it does have the 'rule of cool' to an extent and I built a few way back when, it's a fun model, but I wouldn't want to command one 

[Halandaar]

My position is the same as it ever was; that a universe where gestalt-spacefaring locusts and sentient fungoid cockney football hooligans roam free, and an empire of psychic space-elves can sex, drugs and rock'n'roll a god of debauchery into existence is no place to expect or demand realism. 

 

I just find it baffling that people will argue the minutiae of gun placement on a tank while happily accepting that Ork technology works only because Orks believe that it does. 

[Portman]

My position is the same as it ever was; that a universe where gestalt-spacefaring locusts and sentient fungoid cockney football hooligans roam free, and an empire of psychic space-elves can sex, drugs and rock'n'roll a god of debauchery into existence is no place to expect or demand realism. 

 

I just find it baffling that people will argue the minutiae of gun placement on a tank while happily accepting that Ork technology works only because Orks believe that it does. 

 

LMAO!!! Very true! 

[Closet Skeleton]

 Its not just that the Admech can't iterate and improve their designs, its that the STC tech is so advanced that a Predator is still a better vehicle than anything that could be redesigned from scratch in spite of it being a mismatched jury rig of a hostile environment transport.

 

 

The biggest issue with the Russ is that it's a 2nd edition model that was never really changed in design. Look at the old school Rhino based vehicles and Land Raiders. Massively redesigned. That should have happened with the Russ too.

 

Just look at the FW Russes, they're definitely better. Not perfect, but they're limited to work with the current design. Even then they at least moved the hatch back and offset it. So it's not directly behind the breech. They made the front hull look a bit sleeker.

 

Would be nice if GW also reduced the height of the hull and gave it some suspension as well. 

 

 

The problem with the Leman Russ is that its a Char B1 with a comically huge cannon in the turret. If it had a mere heavy stubber in the turret like the inspiration it would just be a silly tall interwar tank. The Chimera has similar turret proportions and is less of an issue until you get to the FW autocannon varient.

 

The Leman Russ annihilator is the most sensible varient. The Vanquisher is the dumbest, it shoud really have its own unique turret like the Sherman Firefly.

 

 

I just find it baffling that people will argue the minutiae of gun placement on a tank while happily accepting that Ork technology works only because Orks believe that it does. 

Except that the idea that Ork tech only works because Orks believe it does is a meme caused by people not actually bothering to read the background and getting all their info second hand.

Edited May 10, 2022 by Closet Skeleton

[Magos Takatus]

 Its not just that the Admech can't iterate and improve their designs, its that the STC tech is so advanced that a Predator is still a better vehicle than anything that could be redesigned from scratch in spite of it being a mismatched jury rig of a hostile environment transport.

 

 

The biggest issue with the Russ is that it's a 2nd edition model that was never really changed in design. Look at the old school Rhino based vehicles and Land Raiders. Massively redesigned. That should have happened with the Russ too.

 

Just look at the FW Russes, they're definitely better. Not perfect, but they're limited to work with the current design. Even then they at least moved the hatch back and offset it. So it's not directly behind the breech. They made the front hull look a bit sleeker.

 

Would be nice if GW also reduced the height of the hull and gave it some suspension as well. 

 

 

The problem with the Leman Russ is that its a Char B1 with a comically huge cannon in the turret. If it had a mere heavy stubber in the turret like the inspiration it would just be a silly tall interwar tank. The Chimera has similar turret proportions and is less of an issue until you get to the FW autocannon varient.

 

The Leman Russ annihilator is the most sensible varient. The Vanquisher is the dumbest, it shoud really have its own unique turret like the Sherman Firefly.

 

 

I just find it baffling that people will argue the minutiae of gun placement on a tank while happily accepting that Ork technology works only because Orks believe that it does. 

Except that the idea that Ork tech only works because Orks believe it does is a meme caused by people not actually bothering to read the background and getting all their info second hand.

I agree totally with the Ork meme thing. Mekboy Orks are hardwired into instinctively knowing some quite advanced tech but it's their own tinkering that makes a weapons they build work. If the meme was accurate then any group of Orks could make a Deff Dread by agreeing that it looks like it could work, there would be no need for Mekboys at all.

 

Oops, I forgot the other half of my post, that's what I get for walking away and coming back to an open post. I really like the Mortian tanks ( https://mortian.shop/shop/ ). The reason for my liking of the designs is that they look like 40k vehicles if they were tweaked slightly in proportions and incorporated elements of the Macharius heavy tank. They still aren't super realistic vehicles but in my opinion they fit the 40k imperial aesthetic well and they don't look quite as cartoony as the Leman Russ tank.

 

Finally I have to add that I can't wait to see if this rumoured "Rogal Dorn tank" will offer a similar rescaling and redesign to make a thoroughly imperial tank design have slightly less cartoony proportions or whether they take it in a different direction entirely. It's a good opportunity to make a change if they desire it. The Russ is iconic but like many recently reworked models it is showing it's age and the Imperial Guard could do with an updated design. The New Plastic Avatar of Khaine isn't a more realistic molten angry war god than the metal version but it's had it's proportions tweaked and in my opinion it looks considerably better for it. I just hope for the same with some specific 40k vehicles. 

Edited May 10, 2022 by Magos Takatus

[Karhedron]

40K is a universe with giant bugs whose exo-skeletons should not be able to withstand their own weight, soul-eating daemons that thrive on faith and genetically engineered fungus soldiers. Honestly, the unrealistic designs of human technology do not bother me over-much. I prefer to having a clear and cool visual aesthetic for each faction rather than one that is grounded in modern science. 40K is like Star Wars to some extent, wildly impractical designs but they look great.

 

I can appreciate they bother some people but even though I have proffessional interest in military hardware, 40K is the sort of setting where I leave my common sense at the door before playing.

[Halandaar]

 

Except that the idea that Ork tech only works because Orks believe it does is a meme caused by people not actually bothering to read the background and getting all their info second hand.

 

I agree totally with the Ork meme thing. Mekboy Orks are hardwired into instinctively knowing some quite advanced tech but it's their own tinkering that makes a weapons they build work. If the meme was accurate then any group of Orks could make a Deff Dread by agreeing that it looks like it could work, there would be no need for Mekboys at all.

 

 

I guess we'll just focus on the one part of the statement rather than the litany of other absurdities that populate 40k which are somehow more plausible than the firing arc on a tank-mounted gun.

[Closet Skeleton]

 

 

Except that the idea that Ork tech only works because Orks believe it does is a meme caused by people not actually bothering to read the background and getting all their info second hand.

 

I agree totally with the Ork meme thing. Mekboy Orks are hardwired into instinctively knowing some quite advanced tech but it's their own tinkering that makes a weapons they build work. If the meme was accurate then any group of Orks could make a Deff Dread by agreeing that it looks like it could work, there would be no need for Mekboys at all.

 

 

I guess we'll just focus on the one part of the statement rather than the litany of other absurdities that populate 40k which are somehow more plausible than the firing arc on a tank-mounted gun.

 

People can disagree with one part of a statement and not need to comment on the other parts that they don't disagree with.

 

The plausibility of various elements of fiction is kind of subjective. Some settings try to have one speculative concept that breaks the laws of physics while doubling down on making every other aspect grounded, 40k is obviously not one of those. But its not just nonsense for nonsense sake, its trying to set up a theme and its natural to have opinions about which elements best achieve that.

[Redcomet]

Yeah it doesn’t bother me much that realism is out the window. It is funny sometimes though.

 

I would rather have a cool looking tank, than something “realistic” and boring. Tank nuts can play historical games to scratch their itch to “debate” which tank is best

[Marshal Reinhard]

 Would be like stabbing a baseball bat through an engine block.

I just don't see this as outside the realm of feasibility for a marine

Edited May 10, 2022 by Reinhard

[MechaMan]

There was once a time where GW could say this was all motivated in-universe by the fact that technology was reverting, but now that Cawl is around the universe has been irrevocably altered to one that allows for technological advancement (which massively changed the whole setting really).

[Slave to Darkness]

My position is the same as it ever was; that a universe where gestalt-spacefaring locusts and sentient fungoid cockney football hooligans roam free, and an empire of psychic space-elves can sex, drugs and rock'n'roll a god of debauchery into existence is no place to expect or demand realism. 

 

I just find it baffling that people will argue the minutiae of gun placement on a tank while happily accepting that Ork technology works only because Orks believe that it does. 

Was literally about to mention Nids and Orks... 40k has never been a realistic game, and shouldnt be seen as one. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

There was once a time where GW could say this was all motivated in-universe by the fact that technology was reverting, but now that Cawl is around the universe has been irrevocably altered to one that allows for technological advancement (which massively changed the whole setting really).

i don’t think it changes anything because all the vehicles of the crusade/heresy era were just as awfully designed and that was under the emperor’s watch, so it’s just a simple rule of cool.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

The idea that the Imperium didn't make technological advances was itself a retcon. It used to be the reason why chaos marines didn't have some of the cool stuff like land speeders and assault cannons.

[Closet Skeleton]

The idea that the Imperium didn't make technological advances was itself a retcon. It used to be the reason why chaos marines didn't have some of the cool stuff like land speeders and assault cannons.

Those precise two examples aren't actually an example of tech advancement. The official explanation in 2nd edition was that Assault cannon barrels have a service life of a single engagement while Reaper autocannons last longer so are favoured by raiding forces. Other unique chaos wargear such as combi-bolters, over-heating plasma guns and power maces was explained as being outdated from the Imperial perpective which isn't quite the case anymore.

 

Other weapons like heavy plasma guns (aka cannons) Thunder hammers were available to Chaos Dreadnoughts but not Terminators due to being prototypes.

 

 

Codex Chaos (2nd edition) page 72

Though both jump packs and skimmers were available to the Space Marine Legions in limited quantities prior to the Heresy there were proportionally rarer than in the later Imperial Space Marine Chapters. The complex fabrication and maintenance rituals required for jump packs and skimmers has eliminated their use by the Traitor Legions since their banishment to the Eye of Terror.

 

Obviously Raptors came out in early 3rd edition and retconned half of that. Then FW retconned the Heresy into being more advanced which confused things.

 

But its never been part of the background that the Imperium's tech doesn't advance, only that it takes centuries for developments to get official approval. Again, please read the fluff don't go off hearsay.

 

Cawl's Primaris tech had a developement cycle longer older than some of the more recognisable units so it doesn't violate established background at all.

Edited May 10, 2022 by Closet Skeleton

[Emperor Ming]

How does realism in equipment design come into 40k

 

Rosarius for example, the energy shield gets stronger the more you believe in the Emperor

[Karhedron]

But its never been part of the background that the Imperium's tech doesn't advance, only that it takes centuries for developments to get official approval. Again, please read the fluff don't go off hearsay.

A classic example of this is Predator Annihilator which was created by the Space Wolves chapter. The AdMech took 2 centuries to approve the design by which time many Chapters had already adopted it.

[MechaMan]

I mean, the Imperial Guard fluff was once filled with references to how technological advancement had stalled, knowledge was regressing, tanks which were once available in superabundance are now in limited supply, retrofitted with current and inferior tech. Most of the forge world tanks are, in universe, inferior attempts to replicate past glory hence the second generation baneblades.

 

Note that it is important to distinguish between technological advancement, I.e. technology improving, and just new technology. If the technology is new, but of inferior quality, then it is not a technological advancement, merely new technology. You need to separate new from better. That was the whole initial point, the Imperium, like most of the cultures in the setting was on a downward trajectory.

[Magos Takatus]

 

 

Except that the idea that Ork tech only works because Orks believe it does is a meme caused by people not actually bothering to read the background and getting all their info second hand.

 

I agree totally with the Ork meme thing. Mekboy Orks are hardwired into instinctively knowing some quite advanced tech but it's their own tinkering that makes a weapons they build work. If the meme was accurate then any group of Orks could make a Deff Dread by agreeing that it looks like it could work, there would be no need for Mekboys at all.

 

 

I guess we'll just focus on the one part of the statement rather than the litany of other absurdities that populate 40k which are somehow more plausible than the firing arc on a tank-mounted gun.

 

 

No need to be so defensive, I was merely replying to Closet Skeleton about the Ork meme being a pet peeve of mine rather than "picking a fight" with you. Taking closer attention to your post, I must say that bringing the most absurd things in the setting into focus doesn't mean that everything has to be as ridiculous. If that were the case then we might as well give up on all sense and make the Emperor a sentient blancmange? I'm being absurd myself for fun, but I've heard enough people in the last few days saying "Go play historicals!" to try to shut down argument or win internet points or whatever. My opinion is that of "That Leman Russ could look more detailed" and not "You're not allowed to like the Leman Russ because it's not 100% realistic". I'm not here on my side of this debate to take anyone's fun away, I just prefer this:

...to this*: 

 

When it comes down to it there are plenty of people here that enjoy these 40k models but think the models might look a bit cooler if it looked like they spent some time thinking about how the equipment would work. Of course they don't need to read every tank ace's first hand accounts or have designed and built a tank them selves or anything but giving a tank enough suspension so it could possibly work properly isn't unreasonable to me.

 

When it comes to it there are two ways to build Land Raider sponsons and I prefer to place them in the front so the marines aren't getting in the way of the hardpoints while they are engaging the enemy. I'm not demanding they redesign the tank by any means. The already did that when they went from the Epic Land Raider compared to the final plastic version to improve the sponsons to allow them greater firing angles. I personally prefer that design but others may prefer the more chunky, armoured version. 

 

http://belloflostsouls.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/LandRaider1.jpg

 

 

*Though I still love the banners. Just look at those things! :D

 

 

 

But its never been part of the background that the Imperium's tech doesn't advance, only that it takes centuries for developments to get official approval. Again, please read the fluff don't go off hearsay.

A classic example of this is Predator Annihilator which was created by the Space Wolves chapter. The AdMech took 2 centuries to approve the design by which time many Chapters had already adopted it.

 

I think the Imperial Navy Lightning was another example?

[Son of Sacrifice]

Realism or lack thereof doesn't really bother me, but a good designer really should take the time to consider how things work mechanically.

 

Hugely oversized weapons does bug me though, my guard army runs Malcador tanks as Leman Russes.

[Mazer Rackham]

How does realism in equipment design come into 40k

 

I think it has been touched on above by others, but for me it all depends on how 'hard' a person likes their sci-fi, and how many degrees of separation they will allow their suspense of disbelief to operate at with experience. (Azrael's Combi-bolter is heresy).  It also depends on the nature of the sci-fi - Military Science Fiction (40k) tends to get away with less than Star Wars (Science Fantasy).

[Felix Antipodes]

For the most part I don’t really get bent out of shape by dodgy/unrealistic designs, but i do get a bit crazed by incorrect scale.  If a rhino is supposed to carry X number of bodies then i should be able to do so   If a Baneblade or Leman Russ has a crew of 5 (or whatever it is) then it should be scaled appropriately.  That it has a gun size that would kill every crewman when used not so much.

 

Such is the illogic of the human mind 

[Xenith]

Poor gun depression? Simple, just back up over the bodies of your enemies, and as a bonus you also decrease the angle of impact on your armour. 

 

I see the WOT treadheads have already been in and done their thing. GW always try to make things look like they should work, even if they wouldn't actually. One thing I always try to remember is that "it's a game, not a simulation" and this applies to the models also.  

Edited May 11, 2022 by Xenith

[Bryan Blaire]

It also depends on the nature of the sci-fi - Military Science Fiction (40k) tends to get away with less than Star Wars (Science Fantasy).

40K is definitely in the same game, or more so, than Star Wars - it’s firmly, firmly rooted in “military Science Fantasy”, not military science fiction - Chaos and the daemons ensures that.

 

So it should get away with as much, if not more, than Star Wars does (and does, in the form of things like Space Marines).

 

Let’s face it - realism in equipment design is a preference some have, and not others.  It’s not rooted in how much appreciation you have (or don’t have) for any real world elements.  You can love something in the real world and just as much love the goofiness/lack of realism of the same element in a game (any game, not just 40K) as you can having no care about something in the real world but having a hard time accepting a lack of design concept for that same thing in a game.

[Mazer Rackham]

 

40K is definitely in the same game, or more so, than Star Wars - it’s firmly, firmly rooted in “military Science Fantasy”, not military science fiction - Chaos and the daemons ensures that.

 

I must disagree, since my understanding is that Daemons etc is a horror aspect of 40k Sci-fi but my genre hair splitting is not for this topic.

 

Let’s face it - realism in equipment design is a preference some have, and not others.

 

Very much so.

Edited May 11, 2022 by Mazer Rackham