Are Deathwatch Scouts Full Battle-Brothers?

[Minigiant]

Deathwatch Scouts: Are they fully fledged marines who act as Scouts similar to wolf scouts, or are they genuinely neophytes?

[Doctor Perils]

Do they even use them? If so I'd argue for more along the lines of wolf scouts, especially in a kill team type setting

[Brother Lunkhead]

It's generally understood that the Deathwatch is made up exclusively of veteran Astartes recruited from Space Marine chapters across the Imperium of Man. However, it seems reasonable to assume that many missions would utilize the scout skill set, and although there are no dedicated scout units listed in the force structure in the current lore, no doubt ad hoc scout units could be created as needed for specific missions.

 

For gaming purposes individual scout minis could be used in kill team games drawing from existing rules and stat templates of scouts/scout sergeants with slight or no modification. For larger games with deathwatch scout units, the rules for Wolf Scouts would probably be the best reference.

[Minigiant]

Do they even use them? If so I'd argue for more along the lines of wolf scouts, especially in a kill team type setting

Yeah they do. The 'Deathwatch: The Achilus Assault' supplement had an awesome Raven Guard Deathwatch Scout

 

[Beta galactosidase]

There are a few sources that refer to scout squads and companies of full brothers being common in codex chapters.

 

I believe there’s something about blood angels circa 2002 but idk

 

Then I don’t like Insignium Astartes, but it says “Scouts are physically the same as other Space Marines but in many Chapters the 10th Company has a vital role as a training battalion and new recruits are inducted into the Scouts before graduating to the Battle and Reserve Companies. In other Chapters the individual Companies have a responsibility for this training and the 10th Company includes many Marines with decades of experience.”

 

Imo there’s a common leap in logic that “neophytes first fight as scouts” means “scout units automatically mean neophyte units.” Of course that’s like saying all men are doctors.

 

I think that this has bled through to official articles and books sometimes but that doesn’t mean it’s accurate.

 

The first two to four squads in the eighth company are probably long serving specialists, even though new brothers rotate through the company as well. The same for the ninth, seventh, sixth, and tenth companies.

[Brother Lunkhead]

There are a few sources that refer to scout squads and companies of full brothers being common in codex chapters.

 

I believe there’s something about blood angels circa 2002 but idk

 

Then I don’t like Insignium Astartes, but it says “Scouts are physically the same as other Space Marines but in many Chapters the 10th Company has a vital role as a training battalion and new recruits are inducted into the Scouts before graduating to the Battle and Reserve Companies. In other Chapters the individual Companies have a responsibility for this training and the 10th Company includes many Marines with decades of experience.”

 

Imo there’s a common leap in logic that “neophytes first fight as scouts” means “scout units automatically mean neophyte units.” Of course that’s like saying all men are doctors.

 

I think that this has bled through to official articles and books sometimes but that doesn’t mean it’s accurate.

 

The first two to four squads in the eighth company are probably long serving specialists, even though new brothers rotate through the company as well. The same for the ninth, seventh, sixth, and tenth companies.

I don't doubt that this may be true for some chapters. Black Templars integrate their neophytes into fighting companies as do the Iron Snakes. Space Wolves scouts are actually seasoned Astartes who have demonstrated a strong independent streak, and don't integrate well into the Great Companies. The 10th Company is not always the first training ground for new recruits, but it is standard procedure for Codex compliant chapters. As far as neophytes being full fledged Space Marines, this is true for some chapters, such as the Iron Snakes, as I mentioned above, but for most chapters, neophytes entering the final phase of training, before being recognized as full fledged Space Marines, lack the black carapace, so cannot wear full power armor.

 

For most Codex compliant chapters, the reserve companies (with the exception of the 8th Assault Reserve Company) are where new Space Marines take additional training and gain experience before being assigned to battle companies. This is explained in good detail in the old Insignium Astartes. This is still a good source book, as there are no contradictions indicated in the Space Marine codices.

 

I would note that with the advent of the Primaris, veteran (in the sense of experience) Space Marines seem to have a more prominent role (in the form of Reiver and Vanguard Squads) in the 10th company. In this respect, the 10th Company looks more like a special forces company rather than just a training/scout company. However, Codex: Space Marines does make mentioned of the 10th also maintaining unspecified numbers of scout squads and is still the training company. So, it seems they still maintain the neophyte training aspect. It will be interesting to see how neophytes fit into the chapters as the Primaris gain more prominence and GW expands information and releases new neophyte models (like the new BT ones).

[Minigiant]

Are Scout Sergeants full brothers (black carapace) or neophytes with leadership qualities?

[Brother Lunkhead]

Scout Sergeants are Space Marine Sergeants seconded to the 10th Company as instructors and leaders of scout squads.

[Beta galactosidase]

streak, and don't integrate well into the Great Companies. The 10th Company is not always the first training ground for new recruits, but it is standard procedure for Codex compliant chapters. As far as neophytes being full fledged Space Marines, this is true for some chapters, such as the Iron Snakes, as I mentioned above, but for most chapters, neophytes entering the final phase of training, before being recognized as full fledged Space Marines, lack the black carapace, so cannot wear full power armor.

 

For most Codex compliant chapters, the reserve companies (with the exception of the 8th Assault Reserve Company) are where new Space Marines take additional training and gain experience before being assigned to battle companies.

 

I feel like the post you quoted was clear that these companies are used for for training, and that this leads a lot of other people to jump to conclusions that this means these companies only have squads of new marines in them. Did I miss something you were trying to say?

 

 

The statement that “every neophyte who passes out of the scout company and becomes a full battle brother must pass through the ninth company” doesn’t mean that the ninth company only does new marines, or that this is even the main quality of the ninth company. That statement is still true if a full ninth company is 87 experienced marines and 13 new marines.

 

Same is true for the scout company. The tenth company is responsible for training all neophytes. Ok, after the Ultima founding we now have 100 fully initiated vanguard marines in the tenth company, and the tenth company is still responsible for training all neophytes, who are supernumeraries.

 

A pre-primaris codex chapter that does all its training of neophytes in the tenth company can do that, and still have a few five man squads of fully initiated experienced marines in scout armor. You wouldn’t see any difference in the rules, in most editions scouts had the same profiles as any other battle brother. There’s nothing that says these 6-10th combat companies that are used for training have entirely or mainly new marines.

 

Every codex since 2008 has only said that new marines pass through the reserve companies, while continuing to give the reserve companies the same descriptions of being combat reserves with special tasks. This seems to be where the conclusions are jumped to. I think these people are a bit dumb but it’s just warhammer, we don’t take exams on it and the principals of retirement, insurance, and gulf sovereign wealth funds that own the company aren’t particularly pressed about whether there’s a right or wrong answer.

 

The companies have special functions and there are marines who stuck with those jobs. Purple company marines fly air support, orange company marines do bigger tank battles. Grey company assault squads are used for mass cavalry raids much more than the battle company assault squads who are integrated with other squad types as only a single assault squad per demi-company. Reserve companies can have 40 or upwards of 70 marines who’ve found their niche and either stick with it, or transferred back in, and the companies can still be used to break in recent initiates, probably better than if they were all newbies.

 

What were you addressing? I haven’t figured out where it connects.

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

I feel like the post you quoted was clear that these companies are used for for training, and that this leads a lot of other people to jump to conclusions that this means these companies only have squads of new marines in them. Did I miss something you were trying to say?

Sorry for the confusion. I was trying to summarize something that probably doesn't lend itself well to summary. You're definitely right about people jumping to the conclusion that the reserve companies only have squads of "new" marines. It's not as simple as that, and I'll try to explain my understanding of the 10th and Reserve companies in my next post. I'm short on time right now, but I'll try to get back to you either tonight or tomorrow. I will leave you with a quick outline on where I'll be going.

 

For sake of focus I'll just be dealing with the these companies as they are presented in the codex chapters. I'll also just be dealing with pre-Primaris as we still don't have a solid picture in that area. I'll also be referring to Insignium Astartes. I know you stated that you don't like that particular book (as an aside I'd be interested to hear why you don't like it), but it's still the only clear and detailed reference we have of how Space Marines advance through the system. Even though there is still a lack of detail to my taste, it still makes some sense and I can work with it. 

 

In summary and based on Insignium Astartes, codices, and other lore sources (novels, short stories, etc.) training and combat experience starts with the scout company (10th)and then progresses through to the heavy support company (9th) and then to the tactical reserve companies (6th and 7th). The assault reserve (8th) company looks to be a special case that I'll go into detail as well. Squads are often seconded to the battle line companies to provide additional man power and support. The scout and reserve companies can fight as a whole unit, but that is rare. This is all just a quick summary of where I'm going with this. I'll be back with more details later.

Edited October 16, 2021 by Brother Lunkhead

[Beta galactosidase]

training and combat experience starts with the scout company (10th)and then progresses through to the heavy support company (9th) and then to the tactical reserve companies (6th and 7th). The assault reserve (8th) company looks to be a special case that I'll go into detail as well.

I think that this first appeared in a codex, the 2008 marine codex by mat ward. It was heavily discussed on the bolter and chainsword because prior to that some people had thought tactical squads were the first billet after the scout company. I have not seen Merret mention anything about it in Insignium Astartes from 2002.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Back to you Beta.

 

 

A pre-primaris codex chapter that does all its training of neophytes in the tenth company can do that, and still have a few five man squads of fully initiated experienced marines in scout armor. You wouldn’t see any difference in the rules, in most editions scouts had the same profiles as any other battle brother. There’s nothing that says these 6-10th combat companies that are used for training have entirely or mainly new marines.

Yes, it can have a few five man squads of fully initiated experienced marines in scout armor. There's nothing unreasonable with this idea for a DIY chapter. However, there is nothing in the lore or lit to support this idea. There's nothing to say that you can't do this, but there's nothing official to endorse it either. The only experienced marines we see in the 10th Co. as presented in the lore and lit are the sergeants. Even special missions seen in the lit are performed by neophyte scouts. The audio-drama Eye of Vengeance immediately comes to mind.

 

 

 

The statement that “every neophyte who passes out of the scout company and becomes a full battle brother must pass through the ninth company” doesn’t mean that the ninth company only does new marines, or that this is even the main quality of the ninth company. That statement is still true if a full ninth company is 87 experienced marines and 13 new marines.

This might be a good time to take a look at the term "new marine". I think this is a very subjective term. By the time a "new marine" passed from the ranks of neophyte 10th Co. scouts, he's already had years of training and battle experience. As he passes through each level of training and battle missions in the reserves, he gains more years of experience. Yet, a grizzled 50 year veteran of a battle company will still consider him a "new marine". New marines are still immortal super soldiers, and I think people sometimes forget that when they see the term "new marine".

 

Can a codex chapter's heavy weapons reserve company be made up of 87 experienced marines and 13 new marines? Sure, but all of these experienced marines are not former battle company marines who have decided that they want to be full time heavy weapons specialists. They are still new marines with more experience than those new marines just coming into the company. It's reasonable to assume that there is a progression within the company from 10th squad to 1st squad as marines receive more training and gain more experience. These general ideas also work for the tactical reserve companies and to a great degree for the assault reserve company as well.

 

Once again, having said all this, there is nothing to say that your interpretation can't be valid. There's still plenty of wiggle room for what a codex chapter looks like. After all, for the longest time chapters like the Imperial Fists, Raven Guard and White Scars were called codex chapters in the same breath as the Ultramarines, when quite clearly they are all very different, with their own traditions, combat doctrines, force organizations, etc. All your idea lacks is explicit example. However, there is still plenty of variety within the codex family to suggest that your ideas can fit in.

 

 

In Inquisitor: Prophecy videogame your PC is followed by some kind of "gun-walkers" that help you in the fighting, and I was wondering if they have any official designations?

Do you have a picture of this "gun-walker"?

[jaxom]

If one goes by the FFG Deathwatch material (they had access to the lorekeepers), then Deathwatch scouts are full marines who are wearing scout armor.

 

Re: progression through companies

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A pre-primaris codex chapter that does all its training of neophytes in the tenth company can do that, and still have a few five man squads of fully initiated experienced marines in scout armor. You wouldn’t see any difference in the rules, in most editions scouts had the same profiles as any other battle brother. There’s nothing that says these 6-10th combat companies that are used for training have entirely or mainly new marines.

 

 

training and combat experience starts with the scout company (10th)and then progresses through to the heavy support company (9th) and then to the tactical reserve companies (6th and 7th). The assault reserve (8th) company looks to be a special case that I'll go into detail as well.

I think that this first appeared in a codex, the 2008 marine codex by mat ward. It was heavily discussed on the bolter and chainsword because prior to that some people had thought tactical squads were the first billet after the scout company. I have not seen Merret mention anything about it in Insignium Astartes from 2002.

 

 

 

 

The statement that “every neophyte who passes out of the scout company and becomes a full battle brother must pass through the ninth company” doesn’t mean that the ninth company only does new marines, or that this is even the main quality of the ninth company. That statement is still true if a full ninth company is 87 experienced marines and 13 new marines.

This might be a good time to take a look at the term "new marine". I think this is a very subjective term. By the time a "new marine" passed from the ranks of neophyte 10th Co. scouts, he's already had years of training and battle experience. As he passes through each level of training and battle missions in the reserves, he gains more years of experience. Yet, a grizzled 50 year veteran of a battle company will still consider him a "new marine". New marines are still immortal super soldiers, and I think people sometimes forget that when they see the term "new marine".

 

The most recent set of lore regarding it is that Guilliman set the progression from Scout company to Fire Support to Close Support to Battleline as part of slowing down the training process (as compared to the accelerated inductions common during the Crusade and Heresy, which he saw as part of the psychological degradation of the Traitors). A scout may have their Black Carapace, but will stay a scout until a member of the 9th Company dies or is moved into a new company. A member of the 9th will remain in there until a a member of the 8th dies or is moved to a new company, etc. To paraphrase the codex:

• The 9th teaches them wider battlefield strategy and the value of heavy firepower.
• The 8th teaches them the value of rapid assault, constant movement, and feints.
• The 7th and 6th are to proving grounds, to show that the battle-brother has learned the lessons of the previous two companies and mastered all the Chapter's arts of battle. Only then are they trusted enough to placed in the Battle Companies.

The second 8th edition codex has a great In Memoriam of a battle-brother and follows his progression through the companies. He makes sergeant in a Reserve company, if I recall correctly, before a spot opens up for him in the next company.