Percentage of successor chapters and their lineage

[Minigiant]

I saw this on Reddit and it is a perfect resource for us here

 

 

 

And this is why when you make a Chapter it should be an Ultramarines successor

[ShibeKing]

I thought Imperial Fists would have more than Blood Angels.

[Medjugorje]

I thought Imperial Fists would have more than Blood Angels.

I thought that too... by far. 

 

Is this source really legit?

[Commander Dawnstar]

Very important to note that this is based on the number of named canon successors, not the total proportions of all successor chapters in absolute. I highly doubt the Space Wolves, who didn't even have successor chapters after the Wolf Brothers until the arrival of the Primaris, have almost half as many successors as the Dark Angels for example.

[Viridovix]

Aye, lorewise it will likely be Ultramarines or Blood Angels successor...but I was wondering.

Is it possible, according to the Codex Astartes, to be a successor chapter from another successor chapter?

I don't know, the Roomba Marines being successors to Mortificators?

[lansalt]

I don't remember where it was said, but at some point Guilliman complains about 1/2 or 3/4 of all Chapters being UM successors, and says it's a problem that goes against the Emperor's vision and needs to be corrected.

[Zebulon]

Aye, lorewise it will likely be Ultramarines or Blood Angels successor...but I was wondering.

 

Is it possible, according to the Codex Astartes, to be a successor chapter from another successor chapter?

 

I don't know, the Roomba Marines being successors to Mortificators?

First example I could think of: Marines Errant are a successor of the Eagle Warriors, who are a successor of the Ultramarines.

 

Also, as always, your dudes, do as you wish with your lore-crafting :tu:

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I'm pretty sure Dawn of Fire mentioned something about the huge influx of Primaris marines from all 9 bloodlines has heavily reduced the over representation of Guilliman's bloodline in the 42nd millennium.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Aye, lorewise it will likely be Ultramarines or Blood Angels successor...but I was wondering.

 

Is it possible, according to the Codex Astartes, to be a successor chapter from another successor chapter?

 

I don't know, the Roomba Marines being successors to Mortificators?

Have a read of this topic: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/372826-on-the-legions-chapters-successors-and-terminology/?fromsearch=1

[Closet Skeleton]

Its been stated numerous times that IF have the second most stable geneseed and therefore the second most successor chapters.

 

Canonically there are almost no BA successor chapters, the last few codexes massively increased the number of named ones but there are supposed to be around a thousand chapters and no where near that many named ones. Lexicanum lists 44 successor chapters, most of them really obscure. Many of these chapters are only listed in the novel Devastation of Baal, Deathwatch RPG supplements or are 'official' in that they're GW employee armies that have featured on Warhammer Community.

 

No chapter other than the pre-fourth founding War of the Beast Imperial Fists have had a massive successor assembly like the Devastation of Baal. This massively inflates the number of mentioned chapters for the sons of Sanguinius. That big number also includes both wiped out chapters and Ultima Founding chapters so doesn't represent any moment in time.

 

If one assumes that 80% of BA successors are named then only 6% of Space marine chapters are sons of Sanguinius. An even spread would be 111 successors per first founding. Some canonical statements imply at least half of all chapters are sons of Guiliman leaving 62 chapters for everyong else if spread evenly among the remaining eight. We know this is wrong since Space Wolves and Salamanders had none before the Ultima founding so that would give 83 chapters if evenly spread among the remaining 6.

 

A more reasonable break down to me based around vague canonical statements would be 40% Ultramarine, 15% IF, 20% unknown Primarch, 1% Salamanders, 1% Space Wolves, leaving 330 chapters to be split among the remaining 4 or around 82 chapters/8% of total each. Contrary to what Blood Raven haters assume that's a conservative % for unknown primarch, a more extreme but still plausible one would be 40% unknown, 20% unknown but probably Ultramarine, 30% ultramarine leaving just 10% of chapters for confirmed successors of the other 8.

 

So those 44 named BA chapters distorting the named %, after being knocked down to around 35 concurrently existing ones, isn't an unreasonable number and doesn't break the canonical statement that BA successors are relatively rare while still allowing for double that number of fan chapters.

 

Aye, lorewise it will likely be Ultramarines or Blood Angels successor...but I was wondering.

Is it possible, according to the Codex Astartes, to be a successor chapter from another successor chapter?

I don't know, the Roomba Marines being successors to Mortificators?

 

Yes, for examples Marines Errant are a Successor of the Eagle Warriors, that's part of why there are so many Ultramarine successors.

Edited May 15, 2022 by Closet Skeleton

[Brother Tyler]

It would be interesting to see a chart that includes the Chapters whose lineage is unknown. Also, it would be interesting to see charts at two points in time. The first would be after the 26th Founding and the second would be after the 27th (Ultima) Founding. The closest official lore we have for pre-Ultima Founding would be the chart from the Deathwatch RPG, though it was arguably inaccurate in that it gave a percentage chance for a Successor to be descended from the Space Wolves (only one was known at that time) as well as a percentage for a Successor to be descended from the Salamanders (none were known, though a few were suspected). Both could include lost/destroyed/fallen Chapters (minus the original nine Legions that turned to Chaos).

 

As for who Chapters should be descended from, that's certainly a personal choice. The chart shown in the first post doesn't imply anything since it only includes the Chapters whose lineage is known and ignores the Chapters with unknown lineage and any official breakdowns of percentages (which would provide the "gaps" that DIYs might fill).

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Yes, for examples Marines Errant are a Successor of the Eagle Warriors, that's part of why there are so many Ultramarine successors.

Or, if we use Brother Tyler's suggested terminology for this debate: The Marines Errant are a descendant of the Eagle Warriors, and both are Ultramarine Successors.

 

I'm not trying to be a cuss with this, I just find it helpful to be clear on the terminology in these somewhat confusing debates.

[phandaal]

 

 

I thought Imperial Fists would have more than Blood Angels.

I thought that too... by far.

 

Is this source really legit?

Sort of but not really. It is just a compilation of the chapters that have been named somewhere.

[WARMASTER_]

Its been stated numerous times that IF have the second most stable geneseed and therefore the second most successor chapters.

 

 

This is murky at best, I’ve never actually seen it anywhere that IF have the second most stable gene seed, but I’m sure it’s probably been said at some point??

 

In most accounts the DA’s gene seed is at least on par with the UMs for stability if not more so, yet they were rarely picked for foundings through a myriad of reasons, chiefly fear of legion building etc

 

My point here is it’s not really Gene stability completely that lends to the number of successors in the lore theres always other contributing factors

[phandaal]

 

Its been stated numerous times that IF have the second most stable geneseed and therefore the second most successor chapters.

 

This is murky at best, I’ve never actually seen it anywhere that IF have the second most stable gene seed, but I’m sure it’s probably been said at some point??

 

In most accounts the DA’s gene seed is at least on par with the UMs for stability if not more so, yet they were rarely picked for foundings through a myriad of reasons, chiefly fear of legion building etc

 

My point here is it’s not really Gene stability completely that lends to the number of successors in the lore theres always other contributing factors

 

 

Dark Angels' gene-seed is at least on par with Ultramarines. As you mention, Dark Angels not having as many successors is because of other factors.

 

Imperial Fists' gene-seed is supposed to be very stable as well, but with a prominent defect that results in them not having the Betchers' Gland or Sus-an Membrane. At least one of their successor chapters also has a mutation that is basically the opposite of the Black Rage where they go slack and see the Emperor being mortally wounded.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

When did they lose the Sus-An? Because I swear Koorland used it?

[Marshal Reinhard]

Really surprised there's so many blood angel chapters? I thought they (administratum? Or whoever are the ones who give the "go ahead"s to new foundings) were a bit hesitant to do so with BA successors due to possible gene seed corruption (red thirst and black rage, though I know the real reason for those are more akin to a psychic memory affliction)

Edited May 16, 2022 by Reinhard

[Closet Skeleton]

 

Its been stated numerous times that IF have the second most stable geneseed and therefore the second most successor chapters.

 

This is murky at best, I’ve never actually seen it anywhere that IF have the second most stable gene seed, but I’m sure it’s probably been said at some point??

 

In most accounts the DA’s gene seed is at least on par with the UMs for stability if not more so, yet they were rarely picked for foundings through a myriad of reasons, chiefly fear of legion building etc

 

My point here is it’s not really Gene stability completely that lends to the number of successors in the lore theres always other contributing factors

 

 

Geneseed stability effects how long chapters last, which will effect total numbers. The BA numbers are scewed because it contains canonically mentioned chapters that only exist as examples to be destroyed by geneseed issues.

 

Looking over Index Astartes I would actually be wrong, when it talks about Ultramarine geneseed stability its purely discussing the Chapter itself. It also implies that its the care the apothecarion takes in its task that leads to stability, not the geneseed itself. The number of Ultramarine successors is put down purely to the number of Ultramarine successors in the second founding.

 

As for the Dark Angels it gives no reason for the lack of successors and calls it 'perplexing' but there's plenty of deliberate lies in the Index Astartes series (for example it implies that Fulgrim probably died in the Eye of Terror and is only rumoured to have become Daemon Prince). It also implies that The Unforgiven title only refers to second founding chapters but I don't think that's necessarily the case anymore.

 

 

Really surprised there's so many blood angel chapters? I thought they (administratum? The guys who like gives "go ahead"s to new foundings) were a bit hesitant to do so with BA successors due to possible gene seed corruption (red thirst and black rage, though I know the real reason for those are more akin to a psychic memory affliction)

 

Its purely due to BA narrative focus mentioning lots of them, nothing to do with actual intended ratios.

 

According to Index Astartes the Administratum has no authority over foundings. The Master of the Adeptus Mechanicus is mostly responsible but the other High Lords (incl. the Master of the Administratum I suppose) have to give permission. Officially only the Emperor can approve the founding of a chapter.

Edited May 15, 2022 by Closet Skeleton

[Brother Tyler]

There are two key failings with the chart in the first post:

 

• It is limited to official named Chapters with known lineages, ignoring all of those whose lineage is unknown or has never been revealed (e.g., the Knights of Gryphonne and Star Dragons Chapters) as well as all of the other Chapters that GW has never named.
• It gives percentages without numbers.

 

Another less important limitation is a lack of explanation of the methodology. The relative percentages varied at different points in time. Key milestones for measuring percentages would be upon the completion of any founding. Additional changes would have occurred upon the removal of any Chapter (e.g., lost in the Warp, fell to Chaos, destroyed, etc.). A key question to ask is whether or not such Chapters continue to be counted. For example, would the Wolf Brothers be included in the M40 estimate of 1,000 Chapters (that Chapter was disbanded millennia before)? Also, what sources did the author use to develop the information?

 

Also, I suspect (but don't know) that the count includes Chapters that have been lost and Chapters whose lineage is disputed/suspected (e.g., counting the Carcharodons Astra as Raven Guard Successors). To be fair, many of these suspected relationships might be accurate, but we don't know that they are.

 

Ultimately, no conclusions/recommendations can be made based on that chart except that N% of named official Chapters with a known lineage are descended from Legion X; and you especially can't say that any Chapters should/should not be descended from any particular Legion based on that chart.

 

The 3rd edition Codex: Space Marines indicated that “at present” (presumably 999.M41) there were estimated to be 989-1021 known Chapters. I’ve inferred that those are solely active Chapters and doesn’t include those that were lost (the same diagram also says that as of 765.M41, 13 Chapters had been lost in the Warp, 21 had been lost due to irrecoverable battle losses, 9 had been lost/destroyed due to gene-seed failure, 4 had been purged by the Inquisition, and 16 had been lost in other circumstances). If we assume that there were no other subsequent losses (which is unlikely, but we would be speculating on a number if we tried to include them), we could increase the estimate by 33 because GW has given us 33 official Ultima (27th) Founding Chapters. There are probably more Chapters from that founding, but GW hasn’t named them or given us a number yet. So our rough estimate increases to 1022-1054 Chapters (the current Codex: Space Marines tells us that there are more than 1,000 Chapters, but doesn’t give us a specific number.

 

Using the Tabula Astartes as my reference data, and limiting the count to official active loyalist Chapters, I come up with the following:

 

 

The numbers I show in the spreadsheet above depend upon:

 

• Whether or not the data on the Tabula Astartes is complete
• Whether or not the data on the Tabula Astartes is accurate
• Whether or not my methodology is appropriate (see below)
• Whether or not I interpreted the data accurately
• Whether or not I interpreted the data consistently

 

Clearly, the author of the chart that @Minigiant posted used a different method than I did because we have very different percentages. I suspect that the author didn’t limit the data to active Chapters; and they may have assigned Chapters whose lineage is suspected/claimed, but not certain. For clarity, here was my methodology:

 

• Only currently active Chapters were included. So any Chapter that was lost over the years (or is suspected to be lost) wasn’t counted (e.g., Crimson Consuls, Fire Hawks, Star Scorpions, etc.). I also didn’t include Chapters that had fallen to Chaos (e.g., Astral Claws, Blood Gorgons). A problem here is that I didn’t include the Judged Chapters, though we know that some of them survived (e.g., the Doom Legion). Of the Judged Chapters, the Doom Legion are the only Chapter whose lineage is known (Ultramarines), so the data isn't skewed significantly by that exclusion.
• Any Chapter whose lineage wasn’t definitively known was counted as unknown lineage. This included Chapters whose lineage was disputed (e.g., Hawk Lords, Fire Claws/Relictors).
• Only official Chapters were counted. This included Chapters created for games (e.g., Blood Ravens, Storm Wardens) as well as those created by fans/GW employees and later incorporated into the official lore (e.g., Helion Legion, Iron Ravens).
• The Grey Knights were counted as Unknown lineage. The Deathwatch and Legion of the Damned were not included.

 

I have no doubt that there are errors on the Tabula Astartes (I fixed a few while going through it today). I also wouldn't be surprised in the least if I made some mistakes in my work. If you have any questions about how I may (or may not) have counted certain Chapters, or if you see anything you think was an error, please post here so that we can discuss and, if appropriate, fix my data and the Tabula Astartes.

 

The FFG numbers are based on the chart from Rites of Battle (part of the Fantasy Flight Games Deathwatch RPG line).

 

 

Those numbers were definitely disputed at the time they were released because the Space Wolves were not known to have any Successors (aside from the Wolf Brothers, who were disbanded millennia prior) and the Salamanders were not known to have any Successors (though a handful of Chapters were suspected to be Successors).

 

As far as my opinion on which of the other Chapters would have the most Successors, the Ultramarines were clearly in the majority, with lore varying between 50% and 66%. Of the others, the Blood Angels were not favored for Successors once their gene-seed purity came under suspicion; and the Dark Angels were not favored once they [and their Successors] fell under suspicion for not making the Imperium’s missions their priority. That doesn’t indicate whether or not either had a large number of Successors because we don’t know how many might have been created before they came under suspicion (and survived to the “present”). The other “First Founding” Chapters (Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, and White Scars) weren’t under suspicion, so there didn’t appear to be anything keeping their gene-seed from being used in a restrictive manner (aside from the fact that lore explicitly states that the gene-seed of the Ultramarines was favored, especially for Chapters that were intended to be compliant with the Codex Astartes). All of that, of course, has to be balanced against the number of Chapters created from each Legion when the Second Founding took place. Personally, based on the information someone provided above about Roboute Guilliman trying to even the percentages out a bit (though I’d love a quote/citation of that info), I would put the Ultramarines at 50% in the aftermath of the Ultima Founding. I would put the Blood Angels and Dark Angels much lower, to about 4% of the total Chapters, with the Iron Hands and White Scars at about 8%, the Raven Guard at about 7% (lower because of the gene-seed issues and the weregeld that the Raven Guard Legion faced), and the Imperial Fists at about 17% (there’s something to be said for having Terra as your Chapter world). I’d keep the Salamanders and Space Wolves at about 1%. Then there might be a handful of other Chapters with more mysterious origins.

 

As far as what anyone should/should not choose in terms of their DIY Chapter's gene-seed lineage, it doesn't matter. No matter how you parse the data, there's room for at least one more Chapter descended from each Legion. Since no one else's DIYs matter, room for one is all the justification anyone needs. Though the numbers might change based on the methodology, it's clear that some Legions have more Successors than others, and the gaps between what is known and what is possible mean that there might be more/less likelihood of any particular Legion being a progenitor for anyone's DIY. Just because 500 people choose to make their DIYs Successors of the Space Wolves doesn't mean anything. In the grand scheme of things, all of the DIYs created by fans across the world don't impact the lore (unless/until GW decides to add any to the official lore, which they've done). So all of the DIYs created by fans across the world add up to ZERO. At best, any DIY created simply creates an alternate universe where the sum total of Chapters equals everything official plus one DIY.

 

Ultimately, no matter how you parse the data, there is a lot of subjectivity. We don't know the exact number of Chapters. We don't know every Chapter's actual lineage. We don't even know the percentages of Legion descendance. So whatever data you want to consult, maintain a healthy level of skepticism and just do whatever works for you.

[WARMASTER_]

 

 

 

Its been stated numerous times that IF have the second most stable geneseed and therefore the second most successor chapters.

 

This is murky at best, I’ve never actually seen it anywhere that IF have the second most stable gene seed, but I’m sure it’s probably been said at some point??

 

In most accounts the DA’s gene seed is at least on par with the UMs for stability if not more so, yet they were rarely picked for foundings through a myriad of reasons, chiefly fear of legion building etc

 

My point here is it’s not really Gene stability completely that lends to the number of successors in the lore theres always other contributing factors

Dark Angels' gene-seed is at least on par with Ultramarines. As you mention, Dark Angels not having as many successors is because of other factors.

 

While I did say a myriad of reasons this is still the main reason given time and again… Space Marine 6th Edition Codex

 

“rumour of ‘Legion-building’ that often persuades the High Lords of Terra to overlook the Dark Angels’ gene-seed when seeking to create further Foundings"

 

7th Edition Codex "despite their impeccably pure gene-seed, the Dark Angels have been passed over for many of the Foundings that have created fresh Chapters to fight the Imperium’s wars. Yet from time to time the Adeptus Terra have been forced to permit the Dark Angels another Founding, the records of which have mysteriously vanished shortly afterward."

Edited May 15, 2022 by BladeOfVengeance

[Brother Tyler]

Based on the data I pulled, the following alternate pie charts are provided.

 

The first chart shows the distribution of currently active Chapters and their lineage as listed on the Tabula Astartes. The "unknown" Chapters are those that are listed and active, but whose gene-seed lineage isn't known.

 

 

The second chart shows two possible percentage distributions. The chart on the left is based on the chart from Rites of Battle and is shown in percentages. The chart on the right is my own speculation, and is shown by quantity if there are 1,054 Chapters (which is one estimate). Note that the Unknown (Special) slice is for Chapters whose lineage does not fall into the traditional nine loyalist Legion origins (whether these were secretly founded from Traitor gene-seed, gene-seed combined from multiple Legions, or what have you).

 

 

The third chart shows the quantities if the percentages from Rites of Battle are used. The chart on the left shows the quantity if there are 1,022 Chapters while the chart on the right shows the quantity if there are 1,054 Chapters. The percentage distribution is the same and matches that shown on the left above.

 

 

All of these, naturally, are estimates and the actual numbers probably vary.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Exhaustive work is greatly appreciated Brother Tyler !! :thumbsup:

[Boldthreat]

When did they lose the Sus-An? Because I swear Koorland used it?

He did. The Imperial Fists and their successors had their implants fully functioning during the War of the Beast. The only thing we know for sure is that over 10 Thousand years, the gene line of Rogal Dorn lost the ability to hibernate and spit venom.

 

What is odd here… is this abnormality didn’t just effect one chapter, it affected all Chapters of this line. The Black Templars no longer produce Librarians, and the Excoriators have their specific flaw as well. But all chapters of Rogal Dorn lost these functions.

 

Another question that would be fun for GW to tease us with is if the White Templars do or don’t have this deficiency. If I recall, they believed they were Sons of Dorn until recently… and we know that the Imperial Fists Legion had foreign-gene lines In it from the missing legions. If the White Templars lack these two organs, that tells us this was something that was purposefully done by something other than genetic degeneration over time. If they do… one wonders if that shouldn’t have been a clue in the first place to the White Templars. It’s been ages since I read the Soul Drinker series, but I know there is a scene where an Inquisitor or someone is dissecting a fallen Soul Drinker and one of the menials is hit with acid from a fully functioning betchers gland. They mention that it being odd… but I can’t remember if the assumption that it was a chaotic mutation that did this, or if it was standard across the whole chapter? I thought they said it was a mutation on that particular chaos marine.

 

In my head it’s a piece to a very interesting and untold story. Prior to the revelations of the War of the Beast and the Imperial Fists organs being fully functioning then, I would have bet that Dorn had those organs removed as penance for failing to protect the emperor. Kind of a… now we can hybernate while a single traitor lives and no imperial fist should ever allow himself to be captured kind of thing… but alas here we are.

[Marshal Reinhard]

*snip*

I like the brother tyler's opinion chart the best. That's a good chart.

[Closet Skeleton]

 

While I did say a myriad of reasons this is still the main reason given time and again… Space Marine 6th Edition Codex

 

“rumour of ‘Legion-building’ that often persuades the High Lords of Terra to overlook the Dark Angels’ gene-seed when seeking to create further Foundings"

 

7th Edition Codex "despite their impeccably pure gene-seed, the Dark Angels have been passed over for many of the Foundings that have created fresh Chapters to fight the Imperium’s wars. Yet from time to time the Adeptus Terra have been forced to permit the Dark Angels another Founding, the records of which have mysteriously vanished shortly afterward."

 

 

I admited I was just looking at one source.

 

'Legion building' seems to be a more recent trope than 3rd edition. 2nd Edition literally didn't care and explicitly said that most chapters exceed 1000 marines and that the Codex Astartes only meant 1000 as the peacetime target and therefore it really doesn't actually apply at all in the 'always war' of the 41st millenium. The 6th ed codex post dates The Badab War Imperial Armour books which retconned fears about legion building into that conflict.

 

As far as what anyone should/should not choose in terms of their DIY Chapter's gene-seed lineage, it doesn't matter. No matter how you parse the data, there's room for at least one more Chapter descended from each Legion. Since no one else's DIYs matter, room for one is all the justification anyone needs.

 

I mostly agree but don't think you should leave out 'unknown' as a valid category for DIYs especially when its so prevalent in your numbers. 'Unknown' isn't a sly way to sneak in Traitor primarch geneseed, its a reflection of the core idea in the fluff that good information is supposed to be rare in the 41st millenium.

 

With so many mutant chapters who don't represent any first founding derived trait, the idea that all chapters need to be defined by a Primarch is silly. I have a definite pet peeve against 'Heresyism', where the 10,000 years of available history are ignored in favour of exclusive references to the first few centuries. Logically each 2nd founding chapter should have just as interesting and prestigious a history as the 1st founding ones and all but the last two foundings have chapters that existed for longer than any Loyalist Legion did.