Percentage of successor chapters and their lineage

[Xenith]

Nice discussion all! One also has to remember the dispositions of various legions at the time of the second founding. This is the biggest factor in determining how many current chapters there are (cawl/primaris notwithstanding), as each second founding chapter can then go on to found other chapters, and the more chapters of a specific lineage you have, the more likely they are to be chosen.

 

For the IF, don't forget that while Guilliman was splitting his legion down and founding new chapters, basically succession planning, Dorn took the remainder of his legion off to purge themselves in the iron cage - I forget how many survived that - wasnt it like 50 marines? Leaving very little ability to found second founding chapters. From the outset, Guilliman can make like 10+ new whole chapters, while Dorn could only found an additional 2, the fists and templars. Conversely, the Blood Angels could form 6 chapters from the remainder of the legion, double what the fists could, however then we get into geneseed/chapter selectivity based on the HLoT and the Mechanicum. However we also have to assume that they don't actually know about the Blood Angels Flaw - as so much of the literature says. Currently, only some select other chapters and cawl, somehow knows about the flaw, and maybe even noone knows about the black rage. All the HLoT and AdMech should see are beautiful looking, effective marines. No reason not to proliferate their gene-seed, aside from instability, however Malevolance has since retconned this into the BA having some of the strongest geneseed, able to turn pretty much anything into a marine successfully. 

 

Blood Angels are weirdly overrepresented. In 3rd ed, we had 5 successors, the second founding only with a couple of tenuous/unconfirmed ones. By 5th I think we had 6 confirmed, then suddenly loads by devastation. 

[Codex Grey]

The second chart shows two possible percentage distributions. The chart on the left is based on the chart from Rites of Battle and is shown in percentages. The chart on the right is my own speculation, and is shown by quantity if there are 1,054 Chapters (which is one estimate). Note that the Unknown (Special) slice is for Chapters whose lineage does not fall into the traditional nine loyalist Legion origins (whether these were secretly founded from Traitor gene-seed, gene-seed combined from multiple Legions, or what have you).

The chart on the right is basically what I had in my head, with the biggest change being taking some Chapters from the Iron Hands and distribute them evenly between Dark and Blood Angels. Always had the impression that the Iron Hands weren't as well liked by Imperium, although thinking about it, maybe the AdMech has played a part in bumping up their numbers.

[Commander Nicky]

A thing that people forget, is that most of the information about the foundings should be considered propaganda... Not that It might not be true, that 2/3 of all Chapters are of Ultramarine decendent, but since many of these info about the numbers of Chapters and their lineage are in-lores it would come as no surprice that does Chapters "favored" by the Imperial "mob" are more likely to be overstated than others...

 

Also, something I think should be mentioned: In Throne of Light, The Void Sabres, an Ultrama founded Chapter of Raven Guard lineage, is stated as being the 104th Chapter created during the Ultrama Founding... Clearly Games Workshop wants the Primaris to be more in focus, but also that means that 10% of the Chaptes are new foundings or reestablished Chapters...

Also, and just a curious open question: If a Chapter is lost/destroyed due to unstable gene-seed, and a new Chapter were created in the same name, colour and everthing, would they have the same gene-seed from the same lineage? I mean, if a Chapter (lest name them Soul Drinkers) orignial from the lineage of Dorn, were destroyed, and reestablished again, would they recieve Gene-seeds from the lineage of Dorn, or, as a fresh start, would they recive from a new lineage (lest say Guilliman's lineage)?

[Brother Tyler]

I mostly agree but don't think you should leave out 'unknown' as a valid category for DIYs especially when its so prevalent in your numbers. 'Unknown' isn't a sly way to sneak in Traitor primarch geneseed, its a reflection of the core idea in the fluff that good information is supposed to be rare in the 41st millenium.

 

With so many mutant chapters who don't represent any first founding derived trait, the idea that all chapters need to be defined by a Primarch is silly. I have a definite pet peeve against 'Heresyism', where the 10,000 years of available history are ignored in favour of exclusive references to the first few centuries. Logically each 2nd founding chapter should have just as interesting and prestigious a history as the 1st founding ones and all but the last two foundings have chapters that existed for longer than any Loyalist Legion did.

I have "unknown" in my estimates, though I'll admit that I've provided a low number and the actual number of such Chapters might be higher. The other charts based on the Deathwatch RPG don't include an "unknown" category because the chart FFG provided didn't have that result.

 

And for what it's worth, there are only a few cases where I think a Chapter's lineage imposes certain traits, and those are only due to genetic heritage that can't be avoided. Matters of attitude and preference are not (necessarily) genetic. The gene-seed lineage charts don't in any way imply any Chapters' personalities, organization, doctrine, etc. They simply indicate lineage.

 

A thing that people forget, is that most of the information about the foundings should be considered propaganda... Not that It might not be true, that 2/3 of all Chapters are of Ultramarine decendent, but since many of these info about the numbers of Chapters and their lineage are in-lores it would come as no surprice that does Chapters "favored" by the Imperial "mob" are more likely to be overstated than others...

 

Also, something I think should be mentioned: In Throne of Light, The Void Sabres, an Ultrama founded Chapter of Raven Guard lineage, is stated as being the 104th Chapter created during the Ultrama Founding... Clearly Games Workshop wants the Primaris to be more in focus, but also that means that 10% of the Chaptes are new foundings or reestablished Chapters...

 

Also, and just a curious open question: If a Chapter is lost/destroyed due to unstable gene-seed, and a new Chapter were created in the same name, colour and everthing, would they have the same gene-seed from the same lineage? I mean, if a Chapter (lest name them Soul Drinkers) orignial from the lineage of Dorn, were destroyed, and reestablished again, would they recieve Gene-seeds from the lineage of Dorn, or, as a fresh start, would they recive from a new lineage (lest say Guilliman's lineage)?

I think that most people understand that we're working with estimates and propaganda; and the actual numbers might be very different. In the absence of hard facts, though, we have to work with what we have. While any estimates are nothing more than guesses, those based on lore are easier to justify than wildly different estimates that are based on pure guesswork. Even the numbers that I've provided, agreeable as some might find them, might be wildly off from the real numbers.

 

Not having read the fiction lately, I didn't know that the number of Chapters created in the Ultima Founding was that high. I guess I'll have to adjust my estimates.

 

I think that in at least some, perhaps most, cases, replacement Chapters from the Ultima Founding use the same gene-seed as the previous Chapter, or at least gene-seed derived from the same Legion as the original. There may be some cases where completely different gene-seed was used, though. I don't have any idea what criteria might drive towards either outcome; and this is admittedly a guess on my part.

[Closet Skeleton]

 

I have "unknown" in my estimates, though I'll admit that I've provided a low number and the actual number of such Chapters might be higher. The other charts based on the Deathwatch RPG don't include an "unknown" category because the chart FFG provided didn't have that result.

 

 

You have Unknown (Special), if by that you meant Chapters that have forgotten their Primarch lineage due bad historical records then you were really unclear. I assumed the (special) meant it only applied to stuff like Minotaurs being Chimeric or Blood Ravens being teased as Thousand Sons.

 

In your opinion should a third founding descendent of the White Scars that lost all historical records and has no tradtion of Primarch veneration in its culture be classed as Unknown, giving precedent to in universe knowledg, or White Scars, giving precendent to out of universe knowledge?

[Brother Tyler]

In your opinion should a third founding descendent of the White Scars that lost all historical records and has no tradtion of Primarch veneration in its culture be classed as Unknown, giving precedent to in universe knowledg, or White Scars, giving precendent to out of universe knowledge?

In my mind, whether or not a Chapter knows its [correct] lineage is irrelevant. Similarly, whether or not a Chapter bears any resemblance (or none whatsoever) to its progenitor Legion is irrelevant. A Chapter descended from the White Scars and organized like the Black Templars with a predisposition towards augmetics is descended from the White Scars even if it doesn't know that it carries the Khan's genetic heritage and doesn't maintain similar traditions to the White Scars Legion.

 

Genetic lineage is absolute, heedless of knowledge/understanding and tradition.

 

Using "unknown" was really just a cheeky way of referring to Chapters that don't have some normal lineage. They might be created from traitor Legion gene-seed (as some believe the Blood Ravens, Minotaurs, and others to be); they might combine gene-seed of multiple Chapters (as some believe the Fire Claws/Relictors and Astral Claws to do); or they might otherwise be unable to trace their lineage back to just one of the loyalist Legions.

 

To be fair about the numbers/pie chart I provided for my own opinion, I based it on the premise that there were about 1,054 Chapters at the close of the Ultima Founding; that the Ultramarines descendants made up about 66% of the total Chapters prior to the Ultima Founding; and that the quote about Roboute Guilliman wanting to even the numbers out a bit is correct. Also, those were based on the pre-Ultima Founding high estimate of 1,021 Chapters with only 33 Chapters created in the Ultima Founding. Since the number of Chapters created in the Ultima Founding was actually higher (there were at least 107 Chapters created during that founding, not 33), we know that the numbers in "my" chart are off somewhat. I could easily create some more charts with my estimates based on different numbers.

 

Regardless, all of these numbers and pie charts are simply subjective estimates. For the purpose of the OP (in terms of demonstrating percentages to creators of prospective DIYs), all of these charts/estimates allow for any [loyalist] Legion's gene-seed (and perhaps some traitors, too) to be used in the creation of a DIY. Trying to nail things down to exact numbers is, I think, a fool's errand. At best, we might create a range of options that are generally acceptable to the participants (though there will always be those that will believe the numbers are/might be different).

[jaxom]

 

According to Index Astartes the Administratum has no authority over foundings. The Master of the Adeptus Mechanicus is mostly responsible but the other High Lords (incl. the Master of the Administratum I suppose) have to give permission. Officially only the Emperor can approve the founding of a chapter.

 

The Emperor approves in the form of the Imperial Senate.

 

Regarding Guilliman and balancing chapter numbers, here's the passage from Dawn of Fire: Avenging Son

 

'Theoretical only,' said Guilliman. 'For whatever reason [the gene-seed's impact on the different legions] are present, these differences do exist, and they lead to misunderstanding between the sons of my brothers. I have seen this misunderstanding turn into suspicion, then suspicion turn to outright hatred. I will not allow this to happen again. It is especially important as Cawl has produced equal numbers of Primaris warriors from each strain of gene-seed. The time of the Ultramarines' dominance is over.

[Beta galactosidase]

'Legion building' seems to be a more recent trope than 3rd edition. 2nd Edition literally didn't care and explicitly said that most chapters exceed 1000 marines and that the Codex Astartes only meant 1000 as the peacetime target and therefore it really doesn't actually apply at all in the 'always war' of the 41st millenium.

The descriptions that I know about are in Armies of the Imperium, which is an Epic supplement from right before second edition 40k, and the fifth edition codex. What’s the ine you’ve seen from second edition?

 

Armies of the Imperium says

“A typical Space Marine Chapter has ten companies - although more companies will be created and maintained in times of prolonged war.”

 

 

 

 

 

With so many mutant chapters who don't represent any first founding derived trait, the idea that all chapters need to be defined by a Primarch is silly. I have a definite pet peeve against 'Heresyism', where the 10,000 years of available history are ignored in favour of exclusive references to the first few centuries. Logically each 2nd founding chapter should have just as interesting and prestigious a history as the 1st founding ones and all but the last two foundings have chapters that existed for longer than any Loyalist Legion did.

Heresyism is pretty pervasive. Identifying m34-m40 chapters with heresy era legions is way more important out of universe, as branding, to us, the fans. In universe, the Imperium has many good reasons to not do that, and to encourage chapters to identify more with their private chapter histories instead.

 

It’s fourth wall - encroaching, like how Kill Team Cassius coincidentally has members exclusively from the nine first founding succesors and the most famous video game chapter.

 

 

This is the biggest factor in determining how many current chapters there are

It seems like it’s hardly a factor at all. When it comes to gene seed, there’s a detailed description of chapter foundings only using one initial set of gene seed. Since Terra has banks of hundreds of sets per chapter, that’s not limiting.

 

For training, the Dawn of Fire series shows it’s possible for multiple new chapters to be overseen and advised by the same group of senior staff from existing chapters, who don’t change their affiliation. Foundings don’t necessarily need a huge existing number of marines then. The health of the existing chapters doesn’t matter either, since the main example, Messinius, is from a chapter whose homeworld had just been destroyed by plague marine warbands.

[Gamiel]

Its been stated numerous times that IF have the second most stable geneseed and therefore the second most successor chapters.

For reference sake, where have that been mentioned?

 

 Canonically there are almost no BA successor chapters, 

For reference sake, where have that been mentioned?

[Closet Skeleton]

 

'Legion building' seems to be a more recent trope than 3rd edition. 2nd Edition literally didn't care and explicitly said that most chapters exceed 1000 marines and that the Codex Astartes only meant 1000 as the peacetime target and therefore it really doesn't actually apply at all in the 'always war' of the 41st millenium.

The descriptions that I know about are in Armies of the Imperium, which is an Epic supplement from right before second edition 40k, and the fifth edition codex. What’s the ine you’ve seen from second edition?

 

Armies of the Imperium says

“A typical Space Marine Chapter has ten companies - although more companies will be created and maintained in times of prolonged war.”

 

Codex Ultramarines:

 

 

Page 9

The most immediate change to the Space Marines was the breaking up of the Legions into smaller fighting forces called Chapters. Each Chapter was to number aproximately a thousand fighting warriors divided into ten companies of a hundred. This was never intended to be an absolute rule but a guide which enabled the Adeptus Terra to monitor and control the size of each Chapter. In fact, Chapters have often exceeded this basic strenght during times of prolonged war.

 

To create new Chapters the original Space Marine Legions were divided. Each old Legion became a Chapter of the same name plus a number of other new Chapters. These new Chapters are known as the Second Founding. Each of hte Second Founding Chapters is derived directly from and original First Founding Chapter and initially shared its gene-seed. Subsequently the new Chapter's gene-seed was isolated, forming a new genetic line.

 

Put that second paragraph in because it seemed interesting and slightly relevent.

 

Page 10

"The Adeptus Terra has never felt it necessary to enforce the Codex absolutely. Indeed it is doubtful if it could.

 

 

 

 

Its been stated numerous times that IF have the second most stable geneseed and therefore the second most successor chapters.

For reference sake, where have that been mentioned?

 

 Canonically there are almost no BA successor chapters, 

For reference sake, where have that been mentioned?

 

No where since point 2 is hyperbole and point 1 has been shown to be partly miseremembered in this thread.

 

The lack of BA successor chapters is an extrapolation of how many keep being wiped out, which is spread out over lots of sources.

 

 

Page 30 of 9th ed Blood Angels Supplement

Over the millenia, the Blood Angels have yielded dozens of successor Chapters.

...formed in later foundings they are relatively few in comparison to the sons of Guilliman...

 

Since an even split of 1000 chapters would give 111, 'dozens' is a small number, while the comparison to the number of Ultramarine successors is essentially meaningless since there are over 500 of those. So its pretty open to interpretation as of the most up to date book.

 

IF having stable geneseed is mentioned in pretty much every source that talks about IF and geneseed such as Index Astartes, but that book tends to describe most chapters as stable so I was just misremembering due to having re-read the IF section more.

 

edit: checked the 4th ed BT book:

 

 

Codex Space Marines Black Templars page 11

The Black Templars' gene-seed is derived from that of the Imperial Fists, second only in stablity and purity to that of hte Ultramarines, though they no longer possess the zygotes required to grow the Sus-an Membrane or the Betcher's Gland.

 

The idea that IF should have a lot of chapters is an extrapolation of the fact the the IF are just as codex compliant as the Ultramarines and that the Ultramarines are favoured as a source because codex compliance is favoured. I'm not sure if its stated anywhere directly.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Closet Skeleton

[Orange Knight]

I have read, in very recent lore, that Ultramarines successors make up about 60-70% of all loyalist Astartes in the galaxy.

 

This won't necessarily be reflected by compiling a list of all the named successor chapters found in codex books or novels. Take the popular Blood Angels for example - just because they are famous and well liked, there will be many examples of their successors in the lore. There are probably far more White Scar successors in the Galaxy as their gene seed is more stable and free from the "curse" that blights the BA.

 

Guilliman is trying to change the ratios, and Primaris in particular address the lack of balance between chapters. The variety and operational differences are beneficial for the Imperium, and Cawl has even advised Guilliman on multiple occasions that the traitor gene-seed should be used to found new loyalist chapters.

[Gamiel]

 

Page 30 of 9th ed Blood Angels Supplement

Over the millenia, the Blood Angels have yielded dozens of successor Chapters.

...formed in later foundings they are relatively few in comparison to the sons of Guilliman...

Since an even split of 1000 chapters would give 111, 'dozens' is a small number, while the comparison to the number of Ultramarine successors is essentially meaningless since there are over 500 of those. So its pretty open to interpretation as of the most up to date book.

"the Blood Angels have yielded dozens of successor Chapters" could mean that the BA proper have have yielded dozens, without taking into account any successors of successors, if we take it to be true

 

 

EDIT:

Take the popular Blood Angels for example - just because they are famous and well liked, there will be many examples of their successors in the lore

I think it's more a question about we having a story were many of the BA successors gather and are named. If we ever had a "The Great Hunt" event would we likely get lots of new WS successors name dropped.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Gamiel

[jaxom]

There's also the religious-political aspect to consider. Dorn, Sanguinius, and the Khan are heavily favored in the Imperial Cult because they were the defenders of Terra. The White Scars/Khan always had an independent streak so were probably not favored for creating new chapters. The Blood Angels are/were favored (Sanguinius is the the Primarch of Primarchs in the Imperial Cult), but probably have lower extant successor chapters because they keep martyring themselves wholesale when the Black Rage gets too out of control. That martyrdom probably feeds into their popularity among the Imperial Cult (martyrs, woo!) and Senate (they never stick around long enough to develop the power base to be an issue if they get uppity). The Imperial Fists were probably preferred early on, a good example of codex compliance and Dorn was a straight-arrow... until the War of the Beast and the Beheading. The Sons of Dorn getting so involved in politics probably put a chilling effect on their use for new chapters. This chill was probably reinforced by the Age of Apostasy. While no one left standing would disagree that Vandire had to go, I'd guess they weren't comfortable with the Imperial Fists, Black Templars, and other Dorn-chapters laying siege to the Ecciesarchical Palace on Terra.

 

Ultramarines - Orthodox, relatively apolitical, stable gene-seed.

Blood Angels - Orthodox, relatively apolitical, unstable gene-seed

Imperial Fists - Orthodox, historically involved with Terra, stable gene-seed

White Scars - Unorthodox, too apolitical, stable gene-seed

Dark Angels - Orthodox, too apolitical, stable gene-seed

Raven Guard - Orthodox, too apolitical, unstable gene-seed

Salamanders - Unorthodox, relatively apolitical, odd gene-seed

Space Wolves - Unorthodox, too political, unstable gene-seed

[Gamiel]

There's also the religious-political aspect to consider. Dorn, Sanguinius, and the Khan are heavily favored in the Imperial Cult because they were the defenders of Terra. 

For reference sake, where have that been mentioned?

[Brother Tyler]

I’m going to revise my previous estimates based on this discussion and further research into the more recent lore. A challenge we face in trying to estimate the distribution of Adeptus Astartes lineage is the varying and conflicting lore. For my purposes, I’m using the most recent codices/codex supplements in my possession (I don’t have either the Blood Angels or Space Wolves codex supplements). I’m also taking into account the lore that @jaxom quoted here.

 

Codex: Blood Angels (8th Edition) said:

Though they have never been as prolific as the Ultramarines or Imperial Fists, the Blood Angels are not without their successor Chapters. Most were founded in the days following the Horus Heresy, before the grim truth concerning their flawed gene-seed came to light.

 

We know of at least 21 named successors of the Blood Angels known to be extant prior to the Ultima Founding, with two others that are possible. Naturally, there may have been more whose names haven’t been revealed in official sources.

 

Codex: Dark Angels (8th Edition) said:

The Dark Angels Legion was recorded as having sired at least three successor Chapters in the aftermath of the Horus Heresy, and several additional Chapters have descended from the sons of the Lion in the many thousands of years since…at least two further Chapters of Primaris Space Marines have been created from the gene-seed of Primarch Lion El’Jonson during the Ultima Founding, with rumours spreading of more such Chapters on the way.

 

We know of at least 14 named successors of the Dark Angels that were extant in M41 prior to the Ultima Founding, with three other possible successors (Angels of Vigilance, Fire Claws/Relictors, and Star Phantoms).

 

Codex: Space Marines (8th Edition) said:

In the millennia since the Horus Heresy, dozens of Space Marine Chapters have been founded from the gene-seed of the Imperial Fists [Legion], perhaps more than from any other Chapter save only the Ultramarines.

 

We know of at least 24 extant successors of the Imperial Fists prior to the Ultima Founding, with four other possible successors. Not counting the four possible successors, that meets the minimum qualifier for “dozens” but since the official lore tells us that the Imperial Fists Legion was second only to the Ultramarines Legion in terms of the number of extant successors, we know that there were at least six more (to exceed the minimum number of known Blood Angels successors prior to the Ultima Founding). Realistically, there were probably many more than that, but exactly how many is anyone’s guess.

 

Codex: Space Marines (8th Edition) said:

Having had slight aberrations identified in their gene-seed, the Iron Hands have frequently been excluded from siring further successor Chapters. Over the long millennia there have been a few exceptions, but the increasingly reclusive nature of the Chapter has ensured they experience more investigation by the Inquisition than they do new founding opportunities.

 

We know of seven official named successors of the Iron Hands prior to the Ultima Founding.

 

Codex: Space Marines (8th Edition) said:

Over the millennia, the Adeptus Terra has seen fit to find fewer and fewer successor Chapters from the Raven Guard’s limited genetic material, for their gene-seed has continued its gradual deterioration.

 

We know of eight official named successors of the Raven Guard Legion prior to the Ultima Founding, and we know of nine others that might be Raven Guard Legion successors. In addition, the lineage of the Hawk Lords might be of the Raven Guard Legion, though earlier lore claimed that they were descended from the Ultramarines Legion.

 

Codex: Space Marines (9th Edition) said:

Official records tell of no known successors to the Salamanders Chapter prior to the Ultima Founding…There have been many foundings since [the Second Founding] and there are several Chapters that share similarities in doctrine, organisation, and physique with the sons of Vulkan. Whether these Chapters are successors of the Salamanders remains a matter of debate.

 

We know of only one official named “successor” of the Salamanders Legion prior to the Ultima Founding, and that is the Salamanders Chapter. In addition, there are two official named Chapters that some suspect to be Salamanders Legion successors.

 

The Space Wolves Legion was divided into two Chapters during the Second Founding, but one of those Chapters, the Wolf Brothers, was later disbanded. That left only the Space Wolves Chapter as the sole successor of the Space Wolves Legion prior to the Ultima Founding (unless there were any created in secret, though no lore has substantiated that).

 

Codex: Space Marines (8th Edition) said:

The sons of Guilliman account for over two thirds of all Space Marine Chapters extant at the close of the 41st Millennium.

 

We know of ten official named Chapters that were successors of the White Scars Legion extant prior to the Ultima Founding.

 

Opinion basis:

 

• The Ultramarines successors were over 2/3 of the total number of Chapters (I’m going to assume that the number is as close to 2/3 as possible, rounding up).
• The Salamanders successors numbered 5 (Salamanders Chapter is only definite, there are two official Chapters that are named as possible successors of the Salamanders Legion).
• The Space Wolves successors are limited to the Space Wolves Chapter.
• The Imperial Fists successors are second highest in quantity.
• The Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Iron Hands, and Raven Guard successors are relatively low, but we don’t know how they number relative to each other. The only Legions with a lower number of successors than these are the Salamanders and Space Wolves (see above).
• By default, the White Scars are third highest in quantity since there is no lore stating that they are lower/limited as the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, and Salamanders.
• There are some Chapters with non-standard lineage. These might be descended from the traitor Legions, created using mixed gene-seed, or some other reason. I’m estimating a quantity of 6, which is a complete guess on my part. I’m assuming that none of the Ultima Founding Chapters were created from traitor gene-seed (I know there are fan theories to the contrary).

 

The above gives me several “hard” numbers (some of which are subjective). The Ultramarines 67%, the Salamanders 5, the Space Wolves 1, and the Unknown (Special) 6.

 

To calculate the rest, I found the difference between the above and my base numbers (989 and 1,021). I divided that difference by 6, getting a number that would apply if everyone else had an equal number of successors (about 53). Since we know that four of those Legions (Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Iron Hands, and Raven Guard) had fewer than that, I had to figure out how many each might have. I took the easy way out and simply doubled the number of official Chapters for each (giving the “possible” the benefit of the doubt and including them with the “knowns”). I then split the difference and divided that evenly between the Imperial Fists and White Scars.

 

How accurate are these numbers? I don’t know. They are guesses based on incomplete data. The methodology is decidedly imperfect.

 

To calculate the distribution subsequent to the Ultima Founding, I simply added 12 Chapters to each group.

 

Here are the results:

 

 

 

This assumes that the Ultima Founding is complete, and I’ve used 108 Chapters instead of the 105 for the sake of simplicity. The Ultramarines Legion still has the highest number of successors by far.

 

Regardless, there is plenty of room for a hobbyist to choose any of the loyalist Legions as the progenitor of their DIY Chapter, and there’s still plenty of room for GW to expand upon the official Chapters descended from each Legion.

[Codex Grey]

 

Having had slight aberrations identified in their gene-seed, the Iron Hands have frequently been excluded from siring further successor Chapters. Over the long millennia there have been a few exceptions, but the increasingly reclusive nature of the Chapter has ensured they experience more investigation by the Inquisition than they do new founding opportunities.

We know of seven official named successors of the Iron Hands prior to the Ultima Founding.

 

I know their hatred for weakness and/or their fixation with bionics and the mechanical has always been speculated to be caused by their genetics, but I don't think I've seen this mention of a specific aberration being identified before. Is there anything else written about this aberration?

[Brother Tyler]

Nothing explicit is given about the aberration, though the stories of the Sapphire King (see the Clan Raukaan supplement from 6th edition) and the Moirae Schism (see Codex Supplement: Iron Hands from 8th edition) might provide some insight. Realistically, I'm not as concerned with the reasons given for any gene-line's quantity, or lack thereof, of successors. GW has never been great at providing airtight rationales for all of the various lore elements. I just work under the assumption that GW knows the end-state they desire and I need to accept whatever explanation is given, no matter how flimsy it might appear to be.

[jaxom]

 

There's also the religious-political aspect to consider. Dorn, Sanguinius, and the Khan are heavily favored in the Imperial Cult because they were the defenders of Terra. 

For reference sake, where have that been mentioned?

 

 

A lot of it is from talking with the FFG folks who worked on Honor the Chapter about the material and conversations they had with the GW side. In Black Library lore most recently (I think it was Volpone Glory, may have been Cadian one before Traitor Rock, definitely an Astra Militarum book) there's mentions of Saints Sanguinius, Khan, and Dorn as Defenders of the Emperor's Realm and how most Imperium fortresses will have a statue or shrine to at least one of them.

[Boldthreat]

 

 

 

Nice discussion all! One also has to remember the dispositions of various legions at the time of the second founding. This is the biggest factor in determining how many current chapters there are (cawl/primaris notwithstanding), as each second founding chapter can then go on to found other chapters, and the more chapters of a specific lineage you have, the more likely they are to be chosen.

 

For the IF, don't forget that while Guilliman was splitting his legion down and founding new chapters, basically succession planning, Dorn took the remainder of his legion off to purge themselves in the iron cage - I forget how many survived that - wasnt it like 50 marines? Leaving very little ability to found second founding chapters. From the outset, Guilliman can make like 10+ new whole chapters, while Dorn could only found an additional 2, the fists and templars. Conversely, the Blood Angels could form 6 chapters from the remainder of the legion, double what the fists could, however then we get into geneseed/chapter selectivity based on the HLoT and the Mechanicum. However we also have to assume that they don't actually know about the Blood Angels Flaw - as so much of the literature says. Currently, only some select other chapters and cawl, somehow knows about the flaw, and maybe even noone knows about the black rage. All the HLoT and AdMech should see are beautiful looking, effective marines. No reason not to proliferate their gene-seed, aside from instability, however Malevolance has since retconned this into the BA having some of the strongest geneseed, able to turn pretty much anything into a marine successfully.

 

Blood Angels are weirdly overrepresented. In 3rd ed, we had 5 successors, the second founding only with a couple of tenuous/unconfirmed ones. By 5th I think we had 6 confirmed, then suddenly loads by devastation.

They actually retconned it only being two chapters for the Fists, they added a few more for The Beast Arises. I forget the exact number, but it was at least one more with the Fists Exemplar, and maybe the Excoriators?

There are way more. But as everytime the autors for different books / games dont know what others already established. The Excoriators are often not mentioned although they are a secound founding chapter, some autors mention Soul drinker, some not.

Originally, the 7th Legion had enough survivors from the Iron Cage to found the Crimson Fists and the Black Templars. Dorn would take a small group of die hards and reorganize/train them for some time whilst the 2 successors were crusading in their stead.

 

But this has been expanded. The Excoriators are a thing and known as 2nd Founding. So are the Fists Exemplar (made up of a faction that actually believed in Guillimans reforms). I cannot remember if the Soul Drinkers are officially 2nd Founding or not. I know initially in their trilogy it was stated so. But I think that was retconned or walked back as rumor as well. We know they are at least 2nd or 3rd Founding as they were involved with the Last Wall Protocol in the War of the Beast. The same can be said of the Iron Knights. They were present in the War of the Beast. So they predate the 4th Founding. I have seen them classified as 2nd Founding, but I’m not aware of anything officially stating as such. And the only other Chapter of this Era that we are aware of are the Executioners, which we know are 3rd Founding.

 

The 4th Founding changes everything. We know the Fists Exemplar fall off the history books. But none of the other named chapters disappear or are destroyed (at least officially… the Last Wall cover up the destruction of the Imperial Fists). But every chapters gene stores and the mechanicus own collection are used to create as many chapters as possible. So it’s practically impossible after this to track official successors. I would say that the 4th Founding would be a good place to put the earliest DIY successor chapter… with 2nd/3rd Founding being a harder sell (you would have to explain why they were not present for the Last Wall Protocol).

 

Throw in the fact that some gene seed labeled as IF gene seed could actually belong to the Lost Legions and you have some room for shenanigans. We know that when the Mechanicus prepare the founding of a chapter, they select 1 progenoid candidate and over the span of 50 (going off memory could be wrong on the number) years replicate it till they have 1000 sets of stable gene seed. So all of the geneseed given to a new chapter are all tied to one original source gene-line. So if the Mechanicus pull a stable progenoid from their Imperial Fist stores… but it’s actually from a Marine who was absorbed from a Unknown Legion (and even Rogal Dorn doesn’t know because he agreed to a mind wipe) and it passed the tests and was selected. You would have a whole Chapter of geneseed that is labeled Imperial Fist genetic successor, but actually are not. So this could very well be why the White Templars believed they were IF successors, but when scrutiny is applied they find out that it’s not the case. The question is if they lost the 2 organs over time like the true sons of Dorn.

 

Knowing this possibility as a fact. We know that the second founding successors were divided from the parent legion, so there wasn’t one source of genetic material (a single progenoid) as In the later Foundings. We also know that in the Fourth Founding, Veterans from all Chapters would be sent to the new Chapters to form the core of the new leadership. So there is still a chance for foreign DNA to be mixed in with true 7th Legion material. And that also means there is a chance that any successor could unintentionally spawn a successor chapter of a lost legion. Guilliman’s primogenitors would have the same issue. Think about this… hypothetically the Black Templars could have started out as a true Rogal Dorn successor chapter. But if just one set of progenoid glands (being of foreign material) gained favor through happenstance and the given nature of how a chapter replaces its losses… the Chapter could eventually end up not being a true genetic successor of Rogal Dorn. Is this what happened to the Soul Drinkers? Maybe this could explain why the Templars no longer produce Librarians and the Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists do… or maybe… just maybe… the Imperial Fists genetic line purged 2 genetic markers that went against their ideals (can’t sleep whilst a traitor lives/can’t spit acid if you don’t allow yourself to be captured) as a way to combat the spread of foreign DNA (once they discover the situation). Who knows what happened in 10k years. That would make one hell of a story!

 

Now we have a true discussion, is Chapter behavior nurture or nature?

[Medjugorje]

As ADB noted in "spears of the emperor" i would say its not their nature. At least just a small part.

[Beta galactosidase]

[so there is still a chance for foreign DNA to be mixed in with true 7th Legion material. And that also means there is a chance that any successor could unintentionally spawn a successor chapter of a lost legion.

Incorporating those officers’ gene seeds spoils most of the purpose of that single-seed bottleneck. The Inq have purged a chapter before for genetic problems, neither the chapter nor mechanicus nor terra want that extra progenies in there.

 

And still in Avenging Son Guilliman clearly prefers those core leaders to stay formally separate from the new units.

[Brother Tyler]

Note that I split the side discussion about the various Imperial Fists Legion Successors into a separate topic in the Imperial Fists forum here.