New Codex, New Oaths and New Hope

[chapter master 454]

Consider this a thread for the new Knight's codex since I don't think it reasonable to put any sort of discussion of the codex that is now out in a thread called "speculation". We ain't speculating anymore, we're calibrating!

 

As normal, it was harder figuring out where every rule was in the flipping book than anything. I seriously want to put the person who lays out the order of rules under the foot of a dominus!

 

Speaking as someone who runs House Taranis and thus is a Questor Mechanicus boy, my main focus has been on the (better (read: opinion(read: facts (read: don't @ me)))) half of the forces. Some major improvements have been made but in some I feel there is lacking. First off the bat that I don't feel was cleared up well by previews and leaks is what the difference was between Cognis and Ironhail Stubbers was and considering that difference is the sole reason for the word spaghetti that is wargear options for our knights, kind of a curious sticking point.

The difference? Ironhails get AP1 while Cognis are Assault weapons. That's it. Carry on.

 

Initial scanning through the book and considering things, we have most certainly had our damage values universally increased or made consistent. Damage 3 on RFBCs is something I really didn't notice somehow and that does make those guns a bit more worth it. Quite a generous boost however they still have to suck down the the fact they are a 2D6 blast weapon so will never get to have any sort of use of the blast rule except in extreme circumstances (again why I say it should be per die, not the whole attack which funny thing: Land Strider is nice for that feature). The only real question in my opinion is if the Volcano Lance still retains it's ability to body tanks with little care. While getting a damage floor now of 9 is nice (prior that was it's ceiling), only D3 shots can be extremely swingy and easy for it to feel lack lustre. However, with an average of 11 to 12 damage (maxing out at 14) this thing can quite easily delete up to medium class tanks/high end monsters with even just one shot getting through.

Speaking of big game hunting, the Thermal Cannon is certainly an odd ball. 2D3 shots is nice, consistent even but will again highlight blast weapon rule issues that need updated but in fairness: why is it shooting mass targets? This thing is now a pretty beefy melta cannon that can have multiple shots with damage profile of D6+4 (when in half range), putting the damage floor at 5 per shot and an average shot count of 4 also helps. Errants also pack likely what could be considered one of the more popular Bondsmen boons to give, allowing an Armiger to Move, Advance and Charge we may be seeing more of this Knight Variant show up, even if as a one of in lists

 

That being said, not all roses from my gleaning. Thunderstrike Gauntlet's Death Grip is from my understanding...not great? It only negates invulnerable saves meaning with AP3 it is often better to just let them roll on the Invulnerable than let them get 2 chances at negating damage, armour depending but even then it isn't looking good for the ol' Gauntlet. Reaper Chainsword however, its eating good due to having the ability now to swing it horizontally now; our knights graduated the College of Chop and finally got a Degree from the School of Sweep. Feels good to be using our melee weapons proper now, instead of our dance shoes! (Dominus however certainly wasn't happy about this. They liked the Tango).

 

Early door looks for myself, I like some basic stuff I am seeing but I also believe we are likely to see a lot of similar set-ups. I can certainly see a future where knight lists are going to be starting with 6-8 CP each game, with some usual suspects showing up in every list. Sanctuary is now especially good with being a 4++ for melee, wouldn't be surprised to see Double Gallants with Armour of Sainted Ion and Sanctuary running around with an Errant in the back (exalted court, Master of Lore to give 2 armigers advance and charge).

That being said, while Dominus aren't Bondsmen material; can't help but notice that while I was figuring out how to make my Castellan play nice with his painted role (Archimaxes. According to his heraldry from the 8th edition book, he is a master of lore), I can see some value in a Castellan...Castle? Have them recite the exploding 6s litany with 3 Helverins running around them getting 4++ from Ion Aegis stratagem, give the Dominus Ion Bulwark; that could be an extremely scary gun base for any knight list to have. Could even have a questor knight, master of vox, on the field hand out bondsmen boosts to 2 of them as so they get -1 damage defence.

 

Anything anyone else has had some first scan impressions from the codex? Are any of you from the (Inferior) Imperialis seeing something spicy on your end?

 

(and to make it clear, my remarks about Mechanicus and Imperialis are jokes. They aren't dataslate adjustments, don't take them so hard!)

[Karhedron]

I have been drooling over this for the last 24 hours and i have a lot of thoughts. The stats increases on the models and weapons have been quite conservative and I initially felt this would represent a new nerf to thefaction but now I am not so sure. The army has potentiallty up to 8 layers of buffs that can apply to a single unit. While individually none are overpowered, if you can get most (or even all) of these buffs activated, I think the cumulative boosts will be considerable. Playing Knightswill not be about throwing these big boys at the enemy solo but getting them to fnuction like a well-oiled machine.

 

The enforced Imperialis = Melee and Mechanicus = Shooty is a bit annoying and feels a bit arbitary. My gut feeling is that Mechanicus is a bit stronger but I will wait for playtesting to find out.

[Karhedron]

Armigers
 

These plucky little guys are the big winners of the new Codex. GW is pushing them hard and and you will definitely want some for ObjSec as well as for their Bondsmen ability which grants them a variety of buffs when they are close to a Questoris Knight. This reinforces the whole "Knights and Squires" theme. In fact Bondsmen is the biggest reason for fielding a balanced army rather than just spamming Armigers. An Armiger under the effect of a Bondsman Duty ability gains the -1 Damage rule which is a pretty big buff.

 

Helverins are much the same as they were but their guns have improved to AP-2. Against Marines this basically cancels out Armour of Contempt while against other armies it is a straight up Buff. If you do want to run an armiger-heavy army then a pair of Helverins with one carrying the Bastard's Helm relic is really tasty. This relic provides both the wearer and one other Armiger in range with +1 to-Wound which is a big buff on such high RoF guns. Sit them in your DZ or take an Objective on the flank and hose down anything in range. This means they are less in need of Bondsman buffs. Alternatively, pair with a Crusader in your backfield as the Crusder's Bondsman ability is +1BS. Very nice on those guns.

 

Warglaives have gained an improved Thermal Spear which is now more reliable at Heavy 2 and has gone up to S9 which makes it straight up better than the multimelta. If you have any Knights that you plan to work in the midfield then giving each a Warglaive for company is a good call. They pair particularly well with Wardens as the Warden's Bondsman ability makes the Armiger count as 10 models for holding Objectives while the Chainglaive covers the Warden's lack of ranged anti-tank firepower. They also work well with Errants who can give them the Advance + Charge ability which means the Chainglaive can make a fast flanking attack while the Errant focuses on taking down a big target. The only downside is the Chainglaive somewhat mirrors the Errant's loadout so if you run this pairing, look to swap out the melta guns for heavy-stubbers to give you some horde-clearing power.

[Karhedron]

Dominus Knights

 

If Armigers are the winners, Dominus Knights are the big losers of the codex as GW has nerfed these big boys hard!

 

Superficially there are some improvements. The 2+ save is nice and the weapons are generally improved (although with some caveats). The prices have also been ironed out with both variants weighing in around 600 points. The problem is these Knights have almost no synergy with the rest of the codex. If you take one, it almost feels like a unit from a different army.

• They have no bondsman abilities so cannot buff nearby armigers.
• They are locked out of almost all relics (they each have one specific relic and that is it.
• The loss of feet attacks hurts them hard as they now have little punch in melee
• They do not count towards unlocking full CP discount for Lance detachments (you either need 3+ Questoris or 6+ Armigers and a single large Knight)

Ironically, the best use for them might be as Freeblades in other armies. They are basically good units and I can see a Freeblade Castellan adding immense anti-tank firepower to armies like melee-centric Marines or Custodes.

 

The carapace weapons are largely unchanged. Personally, I would always spend the points for a second set of Cannons since you can only fire one missile per turn. If your Dominus lives long enough to get more than 2 turns of shooting, the battle is probably going your way anyway.

 

The Castellan is much the same as ever. The Volcano lance gets fewer but better shots which makes it more swingy as Chapter Master 454 notes. Rerolls are likely to be well spent here. The Plasma Annihilator has been massively upgraded going to S8/9 and D2/3 for regular and overcharged respectively. The downside is that overheats now cost you 2MWs. This chap probably wants to be Mechanicus as the self-repair will help with the MWs and some House Traits provide rerolls of 1s for shooting which makes overcharging a lot safer. Having listed the downsides, anything the Castellans shoots at will probably die unless it is another LoW so this guy makes a great unit to keep in your DZ as a fire base. Cawl's Wrath is the only relic this Knight can take and it is far less necessary given the improvements to the basic gun. In fact you might want to not take Cawl's Wrath at all since although it always gets D3, it is fixed at S8 so taking out T8 targets will actually be harder than with the basic gun.

 

The Valiant is harder to field than previously as it wants to get close to the enemy but has been seriously downgraded in terms of melee capability. Auto-hitting with the Conflagration Cannon mitigates this to some extent but the Valiant still seems a problematic unit to field. The Thundercoil Harpoon has received a modest buff going to 18" range which makes it consistent with the Conflagration Cannon. The only Relic available is Traitors pyre which buffs the Conflagration Cannon to S8 and allows it to ignore invulnerable saves. But since it is still only AP-2, that is not going to kick in a lot except against units like Daemons or some Aspect Warriors.

Edited May 15, 2022 by Karhedron

[Karhedron]

Questoris Knights

 

These will normally be the workhorses of your lists. There have been some subtle nerfs compared to 8th edition such as the reduction to 10" in movement (apart from the Gallant). Also the downgrade of feet attacks hurts although in most cases the upgrades to the Chainsword and Gauntlet balance these out.

 

Questoris Knights are the key to unlocking the full 6CP refund on the Knight Lance as you need 3 of these to access this benefit (or lots of Armigers)

 

The big gain for these Knights is the new Bondsman Duty ability. This duty is a bonus which can be applied to a single nearby Armiger in your Command Phase. Each class of Knight has its own Duty which provides a specific bonus. In addition, any Armiger under the effect of a Duty also gains the -1 Damage rule which is very handy. The effect lasts until the start of your next Command Phase. Normally each Knight can only buff one Armiger per turn but certain Relics and traits can improve this or make the buff last for more than one turn.

 

Errant

 

Probably best all-rounder of the Knights now. The Thermal Cannon has got a good buff going from D6 shots to 2D3 making it more reliable. It also gets D6+2 Damage at long range and D6+4 at short range. Pair with a Reaper Chainsword and heavy stubber for dealng with more numerous foes and you have an excellent mid-field unit.

 

Its Bondsman ability gives an Armiger within 12" Advance + Charge which is very nice on a Warglaive. The Warglaive can make a fast flanking attack while the Errant focuses on taking down a big target. The only downside is the Chainglaive somewhat mirrors the Errant's loadout so if you run this pairing, look to swap out the melta guns for heavy-stubbers to give you some horde-clearing power.

 

Warden

 

The Warden has received no real buffs to its armaments in this edition which makes it one of the weaker Knights now. The Avenger has been hurt by the proliferation of -1 Damage rules and also Armour of Contempt which means even clearing MEQs is no longer as reliable as it used to be. Still moderately useful as a horde clearer but it will rely on its CCW for melee work.

 

It has one of the better Bondsman abilities in that it makes an Armiger count as 10 models for contesting Objectives. Given that large units are not strong in 9th edition, this means an Armiger counting as 10 ObjSec models is likely to flip almost any objective.

 

Paladin

 

The RFBC has benefitted from going to a flat 3 damage which represents a 50% increase in firepower against multi-wound models and makes it a lot more consistent. AP-2 is still a weakness against AoC but it is still S8 which makes it a pretty decent all-round weapon.

 

It also has one of the most useful Bondsman abilities giving an Armiger rerolls of 1s both to Hit and to Wound. This flexible chap is the ultimate Swiss-Army-Knight.

 

Gallant

 

The only Knight to retain its 12" move, the Gallant remains a mono-tasked melee powerhouse. The Thunderstrike Gauntlet has lost a bit of AP but no longer has a penalty to Hit. The Gauntlet is now better against T8 targets or those with an Invuln. The Reaper is better against targets with good Armour and it also makes more attacks in sweep mode. They are now pretty much equally effective (just different) rather than one being a straight upgrade over the other.

 

It's Bondsman ability gives a nearby Armiger +1WS which is useful on Warglaives, even if it is definitely doubling down on melee.

 

Preceptor

 

The Las Impulsor has had a boost but the main change here is the new Knightly Teachings which work like Chaplain litanies.

 

The Preceptor has no Bondsman ability but can recount 2 Teachings per turn which target nearby Armigers. There are some good abilities, particularly the ability to perform Actions and still shoot since Knights have no cheap units to perform actions. The downside of Teachings is that they do not count for triggering the -1 Damage rule on Armigers. Traits are available that can boost Teachings.

 

Crusader

 

This one has been hurt badly by the nerf to feet since it has no melee weapons. It is also locked to taking the Avenger which is the weakest of the main Knight guns IMHO. I would probably rather take 2 mixed Knights than a Crusader and a Gallant for example. If you want a dedicated shooty Knight and don't want the Castellan (for CP reasons perhaps), I can see some value but its drawbacks are significant.

 

It's Bondsman ability is +1BS to a nearby Armiger which pairs nicely with a Helverin. This guys probably wants to sit in your DZ and shoot stuff.

Edited May 15, 2022 by Karhedron

[DeStinyFiSh]

Since my Knights are painted Taranis, I too am only looking at the rules that affect my House.

But I am pretty happy with Taranis. I think a big problems for Knights will be staying alive long enough, and extra wounds, regenaration and a 6+++ helps a lot I hope.

 

My thoughts (in no particular order):

 

The first list I put together was 1 Paladin (Princeps), 1 Crusader (Master of Lore or Forgemaster), 1 Gallant, 2 Helverins and 2 Wargaives.

I love the idea to put the Paladins Bondsman ability onto the Crusader and then the Crusader Bondsman onto both Helverins. If I choose Master of Lore over Forgemaster I would also try to give them exploding 6es. So we have a solid Fire Base, a Paladin midfield (staying 12" to the Crusader if possible) and a Gallant plus 2 Warglaives to punch the opponent into his face.

 

Another idea I like is an Errant with the Princeps update and a Gallant with the Heart of Ion to receive the advance and charge Bondsman ability. With Full Tilt and the extra Movement from the Relic you can move 19" and then charge with a +1 to the charge roll. Ad Landstrider to taste...

I would propably support this more "in your face approach" propably with 2 Helverins, one of them with the Bastard's Helm. Only downside, the Relic bearer can't profit from any Bondsman ability so he will never receive the -1 damage.

 

One thing that "bothers" me (not realy I guess), is that I only own 4 Armigers (2 of each). I am not sure whether that is enough, but since I prefer the big boys anyway I tend to leave it as it is.

 

The not getting back full CP for 2 Questoris and a Dominus sux and I can't see why they did it this way. It is hard enough already to sqeeze in my Valiant, with this rule it is even harder.

I can see my Valiant supporting my Ad Mech as a Freeblade though, maybe arriving from reserve with Mysterious Guardian.

 

All in all I realy like the book. It seems not to be broken in any way like the past 4 books have been, but it has a lot of options so I guess there are some combinations that work very well. I want the book to be a good mid tier army, nothing more, nothing less.

 

What I think should be changed:

- CP refund for Dominus Knights (see above)

- Reduce points for the Valiant. The difference to the Castellan should be more than just 10 points...

- Reduce point costs for the Warden. Bring him in line with the other single gun Knights by giving him a 425 price tag

- Make Stormsurge more expensive... he realy seems a bit cheap when compared to our Knights. But that is not realy related to our new Codex 

Edited May 15, 2022 by DeStinyFiSh

[Karhedron]

I can see my Valiant supporting my Ad Mech as a Freeblade though, maybe arriving from reserve with Mysterious Guardian.

 

I liked the look of a Mysterious Guardian Freeblade but I think it is a trap. It allows you to come in from Reserves a turn early but you still need to spend 3CP to put the Knight into reserves in the first place. Unless I have missed a cheaper way of doing it.

[DeStinyFiSh]

I know what you mean, but

 

A ) I think it might bei worth it. Comming from left or right flank makes it hard for your opponent to avoid being hit by the Valiant. And with its weapons it might be able to deleate multiple units in one go.

 

B ) I am by no means a competative player and flanking with this engine of war is just to cool not to try :p

 

But this might change again with the next warzone since GW announced everyone will start with less CP

Edited May 15, 2022 by DeStinyFiSh

[Karhedron]

Code Chivalric

 

This is our superfaction bonus and is roughly analogous to Doctrines for Marines. The code is made up of 4 different Oaths and you can choose 2 to affect your army before the game (both apply). There is an upgrade which allows you to take 3.

 

Oaths have 2 levels of effects which are determined by how many Honour Points your army has. You army normally starts with 1 Honour Point and you can gain and lose points as the game progresses. There are a couple of Relics and WLTs that provide additional starting HPs. At the start of each Battle Round, you check your total number of HPs to see what level of bonus your Oaths provide.

 

HPs: Bonus

0: Dishonoured (No bonus)

1-4: Honoured (standard ability)

5-6: Virtuous (Virtuous Ability + standard ability)

 

Each Oath has a Pledge which sets out criteria for gaining HPs and a Troth which has conditions under which you lose HPs. Certain Oaths are more suited to certain builds than others. For example, "Protect Those In Need" is very melee focussed so would suit a Questor Imperialis army with plenty of choppy Knights.

 

Protect Those In Need

 

Pledge: Perform Heroic Interventions and/or charge enemy units already in melee with unit from your army.

Troth: Fail to HI or Charge when eligible to do so

Honoured Ability: All units can HI as if Characters. If it is already a Character, it can HI 6".

Virtuous Ability: Questoris Knights can use their Bondsman ability an extra time in each Command Phase (although each Armiger can still only be under the effect of one Ability).

 

Defend the Realm

 

Pledge: Control more Objectives than your opponent at the end of your turn

Troth: End your turn with fewer Objectives than you started

Honoured Ability: Gain +1CP in each Command Phase

Virtuous Ability: All units gain ObjSec. If they already have ObjSec, they count as 3 extra models.

 

Refuse no Challenge

 

Pledge: Destroy 2+ enemy units in melee

Troth: Fall back

Honoured Ability: +1A in the first round of combat

Virtuous Ability: Reroll Advance and Charge moves

 

Lay Low the Tyrants

 

Pledge: Destroy a Warlord, Character, Monster or Vehicle

Troth: Destroy less than 2 enemy units during a Battle Round

Honoured Ability: Each model can reroll 1 Hit or Wound roll each time it shoots or fights

Virtuous Ability: Once per Battle Round, you may change a single Advance, Hit, Wound or Save roll to a 6 (great for triggering special abilities)

 

There are 2 ways to play these abilities. Choose the best Honoured abilities and just make sure you keep them active during the game or go all out and aim for Virtuous abilities.

 

Personally I think Defend the Realm is a good choice since you will usually want to take Objectives anyway and getting an extra CP each turn is a really handy bonus. If you manage to get boosted ObjSec, that is just gravy.

Lay low the Tyrants is the other Obvious pick because rerolls are not as easy to come by for Knights as some other armies. You ability to turn one dice of your choice into a magic 6 each Battle Round is really cool if you can get it. This one may be harder to score HPs against some armies like Marines and Custodes but as long as your other other Oath is scorable, you can avoid becoming Dishonoured. This Oath is more about the bonus than scoring HPs, at least against some armies.

Protect Those in Need is more situational as it is very melee-centric. May suit some builds as at least it is easy to score with. You can use your movement phase to minimise the risk of being forced to make unfavourable Charges or HIs if really necessary.

Refuse no Challenge is the least appealing Oath I think. It only triggers by killing stuff in melee and you can't Fall Back which robs the army of some of the flexibility it needs to get in and out of combat or shoot depending on the target. The bonuses also only apply in melee. If you are able to win in melee to score these HPs, it is unlikely you will need further melee bonuses.

[chapter master 454]

So the codes on review are a bit of a weird bag to untangle. Certainly, I feel we will see ALOT of Defend the Low Tyrants/Lay the Realm (concern.png) however there is something to be said about Protect those in Needs Virtual...Virtuous ability as having that stack with an Exalted Court could be fairly nuts. You could easily have your Master of Lore surrounded by 3 Armigers and have a Master of the Vox somewhere else and have 3 Armigers all doubled stacked with Bondsman boosts + a teaching. That's a lot of buffs, especially if you have the Vox being a Crusader and your Lore a Paladin (though if you are going for punching, Gallant works too).

 

Another rather dirty combo I notice is you could have your Warlord take the Taranis WLT, and if you get Lay the Tyrant's low, that is a lot of dice manipulation for some Knights to abuse right there all things considered.

Not a massive thing but just saying, having not just your warlord packing an emergency "Nope" roll but also having an extra one for your army could be huge.

 

I also restate my disappointment with gauntlets however they have had a nice buff and adjustment. Crushed is just a straight garbage stratagem from my reading of it as it just in effect gives your opponent an extra "saving" throw instead of it being a straight do or die. If this stratagem was changed to just being "roll off, win and your opponent gets NO saving throw + cannot use abilities to ignore the damage from this attack" it would actually be good. As it stands, garbage. In exchange however our Thunderstikes are much better, no longer impairing our melee power these things hit hard, hurt like heck and despite their "poor" AP their sweep profile is pretty nasty to eat, especially when a Gallant can be throwing as many as 12 hands with it with Knight Senechal. 

 

I do feel like however it was a mistake not to give Dominus chassis at the very least a Bondsman ability, in my opinion their stratagem should of been their Bondsman ability. Maybe a bit weird with Vox but hey, since when did we consider realism in 40k?

[Karhedron]

I do feel like however it was a mistake not to give Dominus chassis at the very least a Bondsman ability, in my opinion their stratagem should of been their Bondsman ability. Maybe a bit weird with Vox but hey, since when did we consider realism in 40k?

Yes, the lack of synergy between the Dominus chassis and the rest of the army is disappointing. You can give them a Warlord trait allowing them to use a Knightly Teaching as per the Preceptor. Whether this is worth doing over simply giving it the trusty Ion Bulwark I am not certain.

[Focslain]

 

I do feel like however it was a mistake not to give Dominus chassis at the very least a Bondsman ability, in my opinion their stratagem should of been their Bondsman ability. Maybe a bit weird with Vox but hey, since when did we consider realism in 40k?

Yes, the lack of synergy between the Dominus chassis and the rest of the army is disappointing. You can give them a Warlord trait allowing them to use a Knightly Teaching as per the Preceptor. Whether this is worth doing over simply giving it the trusty Ion Bulwark I am not certain.

 

 

Well with Rotate costing the same for Questoris/Dominus now, maybe. Knight of Faith gives armigars nearby a 6+++, combo that with a bondsmen if your running a spare questoris bumps it to a 5+++, add in the Ion Aegis and yeah that is a tanky group. 

 

Wisdom of Nobility allows you to change said bondsmen ability to a second armigar, so buffs all around. 

[Emperor Ming]

How does one even play knights in 9th 

 

I was looking into starting knights 

 

But how the heck will it work, sometimes you have 5/6 objectives to cover and kill the enemy

 

How do you even do that with 6/7ish models

[Karhedron]

Yup, playing the Objectives is tough on Knights for sure but you do have some advantages:

 

1. Most of your units can move at least 10", fire at full effect and then Charge (is necessary). This means getting across the map is straight forward.

2. Your Armigers have ObjSec and there are ways to get it on your bigger Knights too. Armigers count as 5 models for controlling Objectives and and bigger Knights count as 10.

3. Very few armies even try to contest all Objectives. If you can control 3 and use your firepower to hose the enemy off one more then you can stay ahead.

4. Knights have some very well designed Secondary Objectives which can help level the playing field somewhat.

[DeStinyFiSh]

A nice thing to consider (found on FB):

 

When you upgrade 1 Knight to be a Princeps (I think the Paladin works best here) and hand out the Bondsman ability to a Crusader while there is a Master Tactician on the field, you can activate Calculated Targeting on the Crusader for free, which saves you 3 CP.

 

Nice combo!

 

I think I will do the math later and see how much damage a Crusader will do on average 

 

EDIT: Done the math!

Crusader with RFBC and Ironstorm does an average of 13,7 mortals with the Paladin Bondsman ability and Calculated Targeting.

With Thermal within half range and Stormspear he does 15,6 mortals on average!

EDIT EDIT: Forgotten that you can also swap the Stubber to a Melter, so we are at 16 mortals on average when in half Melter range 

 

 

Add Blessed by the Scristans for another 6 mortals and have fun 

Edited May 17, 2022 by DeStinyFiSh

[Karhedron]

And this is why we can't have nice things! 

 

Nice combo indeed. The logic tracks. And if the Princeps and the Crusader survive until the next turn, you can blow 3CPs to pull off the same trick again. That is some seriously busted MW generation right there. I wonder if GW will have to nerf this? It requires over 1500 points of models to pull off the free version and over 1000 for the 3CP version so it isn't cheap. But it also doesn't hinder any of the models using it so while the Crusader is handing out MWs like candy, the Princeps and Master Tactician are still perfectly free to fight as normal.

 

I may have to revise my opinion of the Crusader. ;)

[DeStinyFiSh]

OK, I added Endless Fury to the mix, we are now looking at 21,8 mortals on average when in Melta range... that is insane.

Again, add Blessed by the Sacristans and you kill a Dominus Knight just with mortals in one go.

Edited May 17, 2022 by DeStinyFiSh

[Focslain]

And this is why we can't have nice things! 

 

Nice combo indeed. The logic tracks. And if the Princeps and the Crusader survive until the next turn, you can blow 3CPs to pull off the same trick again. That is some seriously busted MW generation right there. I wonder if GW will have to nerf this? It requires over 1500 points of models to pull off the free version and over 1000 for the 3CP version so it isn't cheap. But it also doesn't hinder any of the models using it so while the Crusader is handing out MWs like candy, the Princeps and Master Tactician are still perfectly free to fight as normal.

 

I may have to revise my opinion of the Crusader.

 

Actually it's 1K for either, the crusader can be the Master Tactician, also you can give it the Blessed Arms for it's bonus Martial Tradition and keep the heavy stubber nip weapon since they become Assault 6 (+4 shots, if you have the RFBC) and -1 AP for just some extra punch against non-AoC forces. The free shot is once per battle either way.

 

Also I now know what units I'm adding to my crusade force next.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Focslain

[Emperor Ming]

I was looking at 2k: a mix of 3 errant/paladin (is there a reason to take the gallant?)

 

Then 2 of each armiger

 

That leaves points for potential upgrades

[chapter master 454]

I was looking at 2k: a mix of 3 errant/paladin (is there a reason to take the gallant?)

 

Then 2 of each armiger

 

That leaves points for potential upgrades

 

For my 2k, was similarly looking at a 3 questor, 4 armiger load out.

The gallant btw the only knight we have that retained it's original movement value of 12", has WS2+ and also 5 attacks instead of 4. Also, having more melee weapons now is actually really useful. The Bondsman ability also does make Warglaives a bit punchier too.

 

My note is on the whole idea of Catapulting a BUNCH of stuff at the enemy.

Errant Princeps, Master of Lore Gallant (land strider), Master of Vox Paladin (he's for later to be honest), 4 Warglaives split 2-2

 

So this does rely on a 3+ (omnissiah forgive me for considering 3+ inconsistent!) but:

Gallant recites the Litany that causes an Armiger to copy a Bondsman boost from another one, you then have your Errant Bondsman an Armiger and the Gallant, the Armiger would be one that lets you copy the boost. You now have 3 big boys who can Move, Advance and Charge in 1 turn. The Gallant has a floor range (minimum possible) of 23", due to the fact that landstrider floors their advance to 3" and their charge to 6". This means you need to be fairly unlucky on the rolls to miss by all accounts. The first Armiger can use Full Tilt and get a major 21" movement across the board and effectively ensure a charge with that clearance while the 2nd Armiger kind of has to make due with a Heart of Ion which does mean it has to put in a bit extra work BUT it does gain 13" movement, an average advance somewhere about 4" and the average charge of 8" so with general luck that armiger has a range of 25".

The reason for the Gallant is also issue out his bondsman ability to the Armigers he can, if he can tag both great but if not meh, being master of lore he doesn't replace the ability, he adds so those armigers are now also WS2+.

 

The paladin is literally there be a walking re-roll dispenser map-wide. He has 2 Armigers with him to do as needed, heck they could even possibly just be given a (uh...can we say that word in this context?) Helm and have them run around as a menacing duo. The Paladin can then from turn 2 onwards begin giving boosts to the other armigers as needed while he and the Errant keep the home field safe.

 

Though...certainly going to look at that combo presented and do some considering. Maybe...hm...at first I thought this codex was going to figured quickly...foolish...hmmm...must dive deeper -scoorge mcducks into his codex-

 

Edit:

Also, something I noticed: Rules as WRITTEN technically Princeps doesn't work. Due to the Abundant use of Armiger Class keywording in the abilities, it doesn't work since none of the Questoris Knights have the Armiger keyword. They literally just need to delete the extra mentions of Armiger Class in the abilities since the first restriction (Targets Armiger Class) so yea, just be aware. We all know RAI that it should work. Just be aware.

 

Later Edit:

Decided to create a quick list based on that idea with that combo, it is most certain not optimal but I am not ever running my Warden not as the Princeps since that is how it is painted. It would insult her pride! I put it in spoilers as to not bloat the post too much. So not withstanding the unoptimal princeps, list really only trims 1 armiger back from my melee focus concept I am working on. You got the all in Crusader with Blessed Arms, which isn't too much of an investment to rotate shields on and meanwhile you have Vox trying to refund. Only thing I forgot was the codes, likely a Lay the Realm imo (Lay the Tyrants Low and Defend the Realm) for extra CP. I am assuming the Defend the Realm boost doesn't count towards CP gain limiters since it isn't one of those refunders.

Household: Taranis

 

Stratagems:

Knight Baron 1CP

Heirlooms of the Household 1CP

 

 

Questor Warden

Warlord: Ion Bulwark

Princeps

Ironstorm Missile Pod

Cognis Heavy Stubber

Total: 490

 

Questor Paladin

Heirlooms of the Household: Judgement

Master of Vox

Stormspear Rocket Pod

Cognis Heavy Stubber

Total: 485

 

Questor Crusader

Knight Baron: Blessed by the Sacristans

Relic: Endless Fury

Master Tactician (Martial Tradition: Blessed Arms)

Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon with Cognis Heavy Stubber

Stormspear Rocket Pod

Cognis Heavy Stubber

Total: 555

 

2 Armiger Warglaives

2 Meltaguns

Total: 300

 

1 Armiger Helverin

Cognis Heavy Stubber

Total: 155

 

 

Total Army: 1985

Starting CP: 10

Edited May 18, 2022 by chapter master 454

[DeStinyFiSh]

 

Edit:

Also, something I noticed: Rules as WRITTEN technically Princeps doesn't work. Due to the Abundant use of Armiger Class keywording in the abilities, it doesn't work since none of the Questoris Knights have the Armiger keyword. They literally just need to delete the extra mentions of Armiger Class in the abilities since the first restriction (Targets Armiger Class) so yea, just be aware. We all know RAI that it should work. Just be aware.

 

What language is your Codex? I had the same post in a German forum, but in my English copy there is no Armiger Keyword mentioned for the Master Tactician ability.

 

Once per battle, when you use an Imperial Knights Battle Tactic Stratagem, if the model you select to use that Battle Tactic Stratagem is under the effects of a Bondsman ability, then that Stratagem costs 0 Command points.

 

The model just needs to be under the effect of a Bondsman ability, which the Crusader can be thanks to the Princeps rule, or am I wrong?

[chapter master 454]

 

 

Edit:

Also, something I noticed: Rules as WRITTEN technically Princeps doesn't work. Due to the Abundant use of Armiger Class keywording in the abilities, it doesn't work since none of the Questoris Knights have the Armiger keyword. They literally just need to delete the extra mentions of Armiger Class in the abilities since the first restriction (Targets Armiger Class) so yea, just be aware. We all know RAI that it should work. Just be aware.

 

What language is your Codex? I had the same post in a German forum, but in my English copy there is no Armiger Keyword mentioned for the Master Tactician ability.

 

Once per battle, when you use an Imperial Knights Battle Tactic Stratagem, if the model you select to use that Battle Tactic Stratagem is under the effects of a Bondsman ability, then that Stratagem costs 0 Command points.

 

The model just needs to be under the effect of a Bondsman ability, which the Crusader can be thanks to the Princeps rule, or am I wrong?

 

 

I am talking about the Princeps, not Master Tactician which I doubled checked myself. However the Princeps abilities lets you apply the ability of bondsman to a questoris HOWEVER Rules As Written those abilities have repeat mentions of "Until the start of your next command phase that armiger class..." which comes after the point which restricts the targeting. It doesn't make it so the ability removes the word Armiger Class or replaces it with Questoris Class so thus all Bondsman abilities are hard-coded to only work on Armiger if with an exception being made. It is pedantic but it is a minor issue which I think 99% of people won't even notice or care about however just be aware of if you face "those" people.

To be clear: I am not talking about Master Tactician CP dicount counting for Questoris, I am talking about the Princeps exemplar ability in general; it doesn't technically work. It works to give the bondsman ability to a Questoris but doesn't let them actually benefit from it because they aren't an Armiger Class. In effect, you bypassed the targeting problem however due to a repeated line about "that Armiger Class model", it causes issues.

Solution is to just delete that second instance of "Armiger Class" and retain "That model" and boom, it works. 

[sairence]

So I just read through the Chainsweep strat and my eyes started to glow a bit, if I'm reading it right.

 

Each time you make an attack with one of the reaper blades using the sweep mode, you can't reroll, but you make one additional hit roll.

 

Now...by my reading this means:

4 attacks base

Sweep gives me 3 attacks for each = 12 attacks

One extra roll for each attack = 24 attacks?

Or 15/30 on the Gallant, not considering the ways there are to boost the attack characteristics further.

 

Even the Warglaive would get 16 attacks out of this.

 

Am I reading that right? Or am I missing something, because for 1CP that sounds amazing.

Edited May 18, 2022 by sairence

[Karhedron]

I think you are misunderstanding the Chainsweep stratagem. It is good but not that good. The wording on the Reaper's Sweep profile itself is the key here:

 

Each time an attack is made with this profile, make 3 Hit rolls instead of 1

 

The wording on the Chainsweep stratagem states:

 

if that attack is made using the Sweep profile, make 1 additional Hit roll

 

This means that the stratagem allows you to make 4 rolls in total for each Attack on the Knight's profile. The important thing is to distinguish between Attacks (on the Knight's profile) and Hit rolls. This would be 16 attacks for a Regular Knight or 20 for a Gallant. Still good, but not broken.

[Focslain]

Edit: 

 

Karhedron beat me to it. But yeah, not broken but still good. 

Edited May 18, 2022 by Focslain