2nd / 3rd Founding Chapters in Horus Heresy Game Setting?

[OutlawSixActual]

Like everyone else, I'm super excited about the upcoming HH2.0 release, but i've never had a vested interest in the original legions.

 

My current diy 40k chapter is 25th Founding but drew its seed from a 3rd Founding descendant of the fists.

 

I thought that might be a cool opportunity to build the 3rd founding chapter for the HH/M32 era, but is that too out of place? Are there people who play successor chapters in the HH setting, or would it hve to be limited to "this is xx company of the fists and they colored their armor funny?"

 

Appreciate any snd all opinions!

[Slips]

Nothing is really stopping you from having Legion Companies/Chapters painted in pretty different (but, not too different) colors than the main legion body.

 

Just look through the various Colorscheme swatches that have popped up in the various HH books to see what you could get away with.

 

There are also some rather hard to find text references to some alternate schemes; such as the IF company that uses constellations and star fields as their motif because of where they were recruited from.

 

For Example, if you wanted to play Crimson Fists, you kinda wouldnt really be able to since Polux was rocking the VIIth Legion yellow and it wasnt until the IF were restructured that the color scheme changed. BUT, he still had the nickname/title Crimson Fist so you could, for example, still get away with painting the hands of your marines Crimson.

 

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/3/30/IF_Termi_Sgt_Tartarus_Pattern.jpg

 

 

Even the 30k Ultramarines have a good example as seen in this image if you read the accompanying text:

 

 

Which shows a marine as part of the UM's 'Nemesis' Chapter in Destroyer Black; we know that Nemesis later go on to be their own chapter post-heresy and sport green. So, this does grant you some leeway in potentially having Green UM.

Edited May 16, 2022 by Slips

[lansalt]

Honestly, playing games set during the Scouring/2nd founding/Legion wars era seems like a natural follow up to pure HH games, and it would allow people to use their old pre-primaris minis gathering dust now with the classic ruleset again.

 

It seems also a good way to introduce old players to the game.

[Halandaar]

I'm having a similar dilemma; I'm trying to come up with a way that I can build a Heresy-compatible army that fits, while also being able to function as part of my homebrew 40K chapter.

 

I think it's pretty clear-cut that the 2nd founding chapters simply didn't exist until after the Heresy, so it's probably a bit of a hard sell to have an "Ultramarines" army running around in a Genesis Chapter colour scheme in 30K games, for example. But as Slips points out there are a lot of alternate schemes in the Heresy from individual units (Justaerin, Ebon Keshig, Templar Brethren etc) right the way up to whole armies. So I think you could get away with an army that has a variant colour scheme which references the legion colours in the accents. 

 

My own solution (so far):

My homebrew chapter have a fairly plain silver colour scheme with black heraldry, with individual accent colours by company - the point of that is so I can run any of the Chapter rulesets in a 40k game and headcanon it as being that each company fights slightly differently. 2nd Company, blue trim, just happen to fight like Ultramarines. 5th Company, blue/grey trim, Space Wolves, and so on.

 

My 30k models will be going in to the 3rd Company (yellow accents), which will also be a "lost in the warp" company full of ancient armour suits and relic vehicles. And then the Silver/Black/Yellow colour scheme should be good enough to blag them as Iron Warriors if I ever play a Heresy game!

[N1SB]

My current diy 40k chapter is 25th Founding but drew its seed from a 3rd Founding descendant of the fists.

 

I thought that might be a cool opportunity to build the 3rd founding chapter for the HH/M32 era, but is that too out of place? Are there people who play successor chapters in the HH setting, or would it hve to be limited to "this is xx company of the fists and they colored their armor funny?"

 

 

Brother Coldfyre, by chance is your DIY Chapter based on the Executioners?  Btw, you gave me some ideas to think about, great question.

 

In any case, Executioners are an easy example of exactly what you're asking about.  Fafnir Rahn is exactly proof of how a Horus Heresy character can go on to make even a 3rd Founding Chapter.  The Executioners' Chapter icon of 2 axes are presumably inspired by the signature weapons of Rahn...this is a fun idea, actually.

 

I was re-reading some stuff about Rahn (after his model came out, just took a closer look at him).  He was a very "just doing my job" kind of guy, he wasn't famed for his dual axes in the same way Sigismund was as a duelist or a gloryhound like Lucius of the Emperor's Children.  Good template for a Chapter founder.

 

I probably won't use the following idea, but again, it's just an example of How I Would Have Done It.  My HH 1.0 Legion, Iron Hands, would have a 2nd Founding Successor called Red Talons.  Their Chapter symbol is actually the icon of one of the Iron Hands' more volatile Clans, while the name "Red Talon" was their flagship.  It's like a foreshadowing of how they would become a Successor Chapter.  As for how to represent them in the Heresy, since they were Iron Hands I would have painted them in the traditional black, but have them so covered in blood (I've got a blood splatter technique with sponges that I actually started with in Warcry) that they were starting to look like they were wearing red armour...just like the red armour of the Successor Chapter they would become.

 

(Alternate take - World Eaters, even 40k, I would have painted them in the ceramite white of the Heresy era, but again splatter them in so much blood they resemble their post-Heresy red and brass colour scheme.  In that case it's not foreshadowing, it'd be a callback.)

 

Now you honestly got me thinking about planning my HH 2.0 army with what their Successor Chapter would be.

[lansalt]

(Alternate take - World Eaters, even 40k, I would have painted them in the ceramite white of the Heresy era, but again splatter them in so much blood they resemble their post-Heresy red and brass colour scheme.  In that case it's not foreshadowing, it'd be a callback.)

Well, at least in the Siege novels, WE are described as already painted mostly red, with the Neil Roberts' Echoes of Eternity cover picturing them like this:

 

 

I think it makes sense that for the new inductii recruits they diched the blue-white scheme in favour of their new favourite colour.

[Gamiel]

You could have that your force are all shattered legion members and blackshields that have piced a new colour scheme (that just happen to correspond to a 2nd/3rd Foundings colour's) as a way to creat brotherhood and mark them out from others that they don't know the loyality of.

[Valkyrion]

I think 2nd founding works, provided you aren't fighting a Siege of Terra narrative event or something.

 

Just because the 2nd founding created 1000 strong chapters, and 10 companies and all the other codex trimmings, doesn't mean that each facet of current 40k was immediately installed.

 

Why couldn't the new 6th Company have Tactical Support squads for the first few decades or even centuries until the practice is gradually withdrawn?

Did the Ultramarines destroy all of their Arquitors and Jetbikes as soon as the new Codex was written? Of course not, so put a squadron in your Genesis. 

 

A compromise is needed - for instance;

No 10 man Heavy Support Squads with 10 heavy weapons. Take 5 man squads with 4 heavy weapons.

No 20 man squads at all

Limited specialist consuls - I think a Raven Guard successor may well have a Vigilator knocking about, but not a Vigilator and a Moritat and a Warmonger and a and a and etc

Limited Tactical Support, Seeker and Jetbike squads. Not none, but not like a full Sky Hunter company or something.

 

Also some modelling compromise too, I think. Use the older marks and deimos stuff to sell the idea that even if this army isn't Heresy it's still very old. 

 

Once you get past the 2nd founding I think it's too far removed from the HH setting to properly sell it. 

[Brother Tyler]

There's no reason that you can't use Space Marines from the 2nd founding or later in games set during the Horus Heresy (or you could just narratively say that the battles are taking place during/after the Scouring). Purists might get upset, but they can simply choose to not play against you if they have that much of a problem with it. Think of the Horus Heresy in the same way as historical wargaming (because in the context of the WH40K setting, that's what it is). If you're trying to recreate a specific event, you'll be very limited in your force options. Not everyone has the resources to only use historically accurate forces, though, so it's common to see anachronisms and mis-matches (such as U.S. Marines facing off against Germans using popular WWII wargames).

 

As long as you're using rules that everyone can agree on, whether sticking with the official rules or agreeably using homemade rules, everything should be fine.

 

If you do it, I wouldn't bother trying to come up with too much in the way of explanation. Whether you try to pass it off as forces adopting different color schemes for whatever reason or just ignore it altogether and just accept that you (or your opponent) can't afford to collect a whole new army just for this setting, just shrug your shoulders, go with it, and enjoy the gaming.

[Doghouse]

I agree with the others and say go for it.

 

What I would do is link them to a specific campaign or planet. I think the imperial Fists used black armour with yellow shoulder insets to represent those that fought in the howling gyre wars. 

 

Tell us the colour scheme you have and chapter icon and we'll probably be able to bash something together between us all. ;)

 

It could be something as simple as the garrison force of such and such Legion based on such and such planet adopted an alternative colour scheme based the personal heraldry of their Praetor. This was due to Alpha Legion forces in the region adopting their Legionary colours to infiltrate and sow destruction on vital loyalist worlds nearby. In response the garrison force adopted their unusual new colour scheme using rare locally sourced materials that made it almost impossible for the traitors to mimic due to the exotic composition of the paint reaction to sensor feeds.

While active in the Heresy battling traitors they never took part fully in the conflict, instead were limited to protecting valuable shipping lanes and listening posts that were vital to maintaining supply route to Forgeworld X and would later carry their scheme through to their official founding following the Scouring.

[Valkyrion]

Don't forget camo too. Your Imperial Fists might be dressed as Crimson Fists because they are fighting on a planet bathed in the perpetual twilight of a dying star giving the world a dark blue hue and the Raven Guard would totally Raptor-fy their uniform if fighting in a jungle.

Your Salamanders might find themselves on a lost human world where green is the colour of the Dark Eldar raiders that torment them, so being the kind hearted coal skinned giants they are, they paint their armour the sacred red of this world. 

[Gamiel]

There is also the Sea Tiger (Operation Petticoat) possebility, that the primer paint is a different colour from the Legion colours but they had no time to put on the top coat before being sent out or having to leave the area with the paint for other reasons. 

[infyrana]

There's the Black Guard - 2nd founding of the Raven Guards - re-organised during the Horus Heresy (post drop site massacre) from Corax's Shadow Wardens.

 

I'm sure you could take such stories and develop your own.

[gideon stargreave]

Go for it. People have given plenty of good reasons here, out of curiosity though, what is the colour scheme of your own force?