Finding out your parent chapter

[Valkyrion]

If a chapter didn't know their heritage, would/could the arrival of the Torchbearer fleet confirm their founding chapter?

Similarly, if the chapter thought they were one thing, could the torchbearer fleet correct them?

 

For instance, if the Crimson Castellans thought they were of Imperial Fists stock, could the Torchbearers be like 'Surprise! You're actually White Scars!'

 

Just wondering if it could make a cool DIY theme of confused identity. 

[Brother Tyler]

We know of at least one Chapter that discovered it was incorrect in its beliefs about its lineage: the Swords of Haldroth thought they were Successors of the Ultramarines, but were corrected when Astorath showed up and revealed that they were Successors of the Blood Angels, after which they renamed themselves the Carmine Blades.

 

I think the Torchbearer fleets and the Primaris would be an excellent way for some Chapters with either incorrect beliefs or ignorance to discover their true lineage.

[Gamiel]

They could, but they could as well not. The Blood Raven were just handed the primaris technology and Blood Raven marked gene-seed from the vaults of Terra, no information about their origin or gene-lineage.

[lansalt]

That's how it should always have been even before Torchbearer fleets. With only 9 loyalists primarchs it should be impossible for Chapters/AdMech/inquisition to forget to compare their geneseed with well know samples to get a match, not to mention obvious signs like RG pale skin or BA blood lust. Only UM, IF, DA, IH or WS successors, which do not have obvious external features, could have doubts about their lineage for a time.

 

I think the most probable explanation is that in the millennia between 30k and 40k there have been experimental Chapters using forbidden geneseed from the lost legions and the traitors, later covered or willingly forgotten by all parties involved for obvious reasons. The Blood Ravens are a good example.

[phandaal]

How about a Torchbearer fleet showing up to the home planet of the Heralds of the Emperor's Dragon Fists or whatever with a whole load of Primaris created from the wrong gene seed.

 

Feels like a better story in terms of what should actually happen in the universe.

[apologist]

It's certainly a fun concept to explore. I'm not hugely familiar with the organisation of the Torchbearer fleets, but presumably there had to be some reference on Terra as to the origin, so there's always a little wiggle room to certainty. The Adeptus Terra famously doesn't have clean, useable, accessible reference, after all.

 

To illustrate what I mean, assume that after four thousand years of history, the Stellar Steeds have lost their records and are unsure of their lineage. Being a good Codex Chapter, they contact Kar Duniash, the Segmentum Capital for information. The request is filed, recorded and the answer – Ultramarines, according to the information gathered from sector records – is sent to the Steeds after a few short decades, as well as Terra, for recording. Satisfied, the Steeds go back to their duties, filled with purpose.

 

Three centuries later, a Torchbearer fleet fights their way through to the Steeds. Confused, the Chapter receives an intake of warriors with Jaghatai Khan's geneseed – Terra's records on the Chapter quite contradicting those of Kar Duniash. With medical skill and analysis long lost and forgotten, who is to say which is correct? Those from Kar Duniash, more complete and extensive, and with the political weight of the regional capital; or those of Terra, scanty but seemingly ante-dating those of Kar Duniash, and drenched with the religious heft of the Throneworld?

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I'd have thought the same about the torchbearer arrival, but it seemed to do the opposite for the White Templars.

 

I just don't get that they could find out they aren't of Dorn's line, without then using whatever method told them that information again to find the right answer?

Edited May 16, 2022 by Brother Adelard

[Felix Antipodes]

One of the problematic things foe me with the Torchbearer Fleets concept (which I love for several reasons) is that it is never explained just how the Imperium “knew” who each Chapter were descended from.  Did they use the outdated and incomplete records on Terra and/or Mars (is this why the White Templars are no longer of Dorn)?  Cawl came up with a way of identifying the originating legion from the gene-seed tithes (something the Imperium hasn’t been able to do before now)?

 

Since the first of the Torchbearer Fleets departed prior to the launch of the Indomitus Crusade my headcanon suggests they were loaded up with X number of Primaris from each of the nine loyalist legions, given a list of the last known location of Chapters within their targeted area, and directed to provide whatever reinforcements were required before moving on to the next Chapter.  This would explain why some of the fleets turn with Unnumbered Sons and others turn up with Primaris decked out in their new Chapters colours on arrival.

 

To return to the OP though, without an explanation of how the Imperium discerns a Chapter’s linage, a Torchbearer Fleet arrival would not imho provide unimpeachable proof of the legion they descended from.

[Sugarlessllama]

If a chapter didn't know their heritage, would/could the arrival of the Torchbearer fleet confirm their founding chapter?

Similarly, if the chapter thought they were one thing, could the torchbearer fleet correct them?

 

For instance, if the Crimson Castellans thought they were of Imperial Fists stock, could the Torchbearers be like 'Surprise! You're actually White Scars!'

 

Just wondering if it could make a cool DIY theme of confused identity. 

 

I really like this idea. Given that SM chapters get wiped out and refounded, I could see a chapter being founded thinking they were one lineage and then it turns out that when they were refounded that Terra used a different stock of geneseed to create the chapter. Woops! 

[Beta galactosidase]

One of the problematic things foe me with the Torchbearer Fleets

 

To return to the OP though, without an explanation of how the Imperium discerns a Chapter’s linage, a Torchbearer Fleet arrival would not imho provide unimpeachable proof of the legion they descended from.

Afaik some of the primaris stories have said that for some chapters’ reinforcements, Cawl did not identify a legion.

 

Terra has separate vaults for each chapter. Flesh Tearers’ gene seed isn’t thrown in one big vault together with all the other BA legion successors’. It’s a monitoring system. They’re tracking the inevitable drift in each chapter to see if it strays into dysfunction.

 

For the chapters you’re talking about, like the Fire Claws, he couldn’t just use generic “legion” gene seed restored to crusade era spec, because there’s no corresponding legion.

 

For chapters with some kind of special origin, he went into the chapter’s individual vault, picked a well-functioning sample, and figured out what a Magnificat and sinew coils would look like if they were made to match.

 

It would be like if he had made Flesh Tearer primaris to debased 40k-era specs instead of sending them restored legion-era geneseed.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

That's how it should always have been even before Torchbearer fleets. With only 9 loyalists primarchs it should be impossible for Chapters/AdMech/inquisition to forget to compare their geneseed with well know samples to get a match, not to mention obvious signs like RG pale skin or BA blood lust. Only UM, IF, DA, IH or WS successors, which do not have obvious external features, could have doubts about their lineage for a time.

 

I think the most probable explanation is that in the millennia between 30k and 40k there have been experimental Chapters using forbidden geneseed from the lost legions and the traitors, later covered or willingly forgotten by all parties involved for obvious reasons. The Blood Ravens are a good example.

doesn’t the gene seed also make marines look similar to their primarch? That should be pretty easy as well

[Felix Antipodes]

 

If a chapter didn't know their heritage, would/could the arrival of the Torchbearer fleet confirm their founding chapter?

Similarly, if the chapter thought they were one thing, could the torchbearer fleet correct them?

 

For instance, if the Crimson Castellans thought they were of Imperial Fists stock, could the Torchbearers be like 'Surprise! You're actually White Scars!'

 

Just wondering if it could make a cool DIY theme of confused identity. 

 

I really like this idea. Given that SM chapters get wiped out and refounded, I could see a chapter being founded thinking they were one lineage and then it turns out that when they were refounded that Terra used a different stock of geneseed to create the chapter. Woops! 

 

It would be even more embarrassing if they re-founded a Chapter only to discover the Chapter had managed to survive after all.  Double whoops!

 

edited for spelling and grammar.  Thanks Brother Gamiel 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Felix Antipodes

[Gamiel]

Frater Felix Antipodes, I think you need to do an EDIT

 

That's how it should always have been even before Torchbearer fleets. With only 9 loyalists primarchs it should be impossible for Chapters/AdMech/inquisition to forget to compare their geneseed with well know samples to get a match, not to mention obvious signs like RG pale skin or BA blood lust. Only UM, IF, DA, IH or WS successors, which do not have obvious external features, could have doubts about their lineage for a time.

Both the blood lust and the pale skin, as well as fangs, black skin or burning eyes are all things that a chapter of any gene-line can develop because of gene-seed mutation. And the other way around, something can mutate or be tempered with that takes away or change the gene-lines standard markings.

[Felix Antipodes]

 

One of the problematic things foe me with the Torchbearer Fleets

 

To return to the OP though, without an explanation of how the Imperium discerns a Chapter’s linage, a Torchbearer Fleet arrival would not imho provide unimpeachable proof of the legion they descended from.

Afaik some of the primaris stories have said that for some chapters’ reinforcements, Cawl did not identify a legion.

 

Terra has separate vaults for each chapter. Flesh Tearers’ gene seed isn’t thrown in one big vault together with all the other BA legion successors’. It’s a monitoring system. They’re tracking the inevitable drift in each chapter to see if it strays into dysfunction.

 

For the chapters you’re talking about, like the Fire Claws, he couldn’t just use generic “legion” gene seed restored to crusade era spec, because there’s no corresponding legion.

 

For chapters with some kind of special origin, he went into the chapter’s individual vault, picked a well-functioning sample, and figured out what a Magnificat and sinew coils would look like if they were made to match.

 

It would be like if he had made Flesh Tearer primaris to debased 40k-era specs instead of sending them restored legion-era geneseed.

 

 

The trouble is that is just conjecture as GW has not even hinted at this let alone stated it in the lore.  I know that the tithe is stored and studied on Terra/Mars because they have told us this.  They have also said it was incomplete (when it suited their storyline at the time).  Maybe the Fire Claws tithe was stored at the facility captured by the Iron Warriors in the novel Storm of Iron?

 

I seem to recall them saying there wasn’t a method to identify genetic origin in the current setting prior to Cawl revealing himself but cannot remember the source.  Cawl no doubt came up with a method but this isn’t confirmed as yet so far in what I’ve read, so might have missed that.  I will go back for another read.

[WARMASTER_]

It’s an interesting question but it’s also a very tricky one and one that’s probably not easily answered after the Primaris and Crawl.

 

Gene seed seems to be something in the past that was not always easily identifiable, even under direct scrutiny from the Adeptus Terra or Mars. This gives a reasonable explanation to the “Unknown” lineage of some chapters without the simple “all the records were lost”

 

From the Aphelion Project talking about the Red Scorpion

 

“their origins as a Chapter remain a complete mystery, as does the identity of the Founding to which they belong or the primogenitor Chapter from which their gene-seed has been taken. Gene-seed

which, other than being notable for its extreme lack of any

form of deterioration or corruption, bears no specific hallmarks

That would allow it to be sourced (even inconclusively) to one

of the onginal Space Marine Legions”

 

We also don’t really know how crawl created the Primaris marines in regards to which Gene stock he used. Did he use the individual chapters Gene-seed [ I think this is the most likely ] or did he simply use the original legion Gene seed? We know since the second founding [and subsequent foundings] that a chapters Gene-seed is kept separate from the original legions[chapter] it was first derived to maintain purity [which is also how we have second founding and beyond chapters having successors through their own Gene linage]

 

From the 5th edition codex -

“Each of the Second Founding Chapters was derived directly from an original First Founding Chapter and initially shared the same gene-seed. Subsequently the new Chapter's gene- seed was isolated, forming a new genetic line.

 

On Earth the Adeptus Terra set up genetic banks to produce and store Space Marine gene-seed. These banks were used to provide all new gene-seed for Space Marines. To prevent cross-contamination, the genetic stock of each Legion was isolated and henceforth the new Space Marine Chapters would receive gene-seed only from their own genetic stock”

 

 

My guess would be “maybe” I’d imagine Crawl wouldn’t know the legion it’s derived from in some cases as with the Red Scorpions and with other chapters who maybe leaned more a certain way genetically then yes… all in all id say go for it it’s a good story device and that’s all that ever matters :)

Edited May 17, 2022 by BladeOfVengeance