Imperial Fists Legion Successors Discussion

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Nice discussion all! One also has to remember the dispositions of various legions at the time of the second founding. This is the biggest factor in determining how many current chapters there are (cawl/primaris notwithstanding), as each second founding chapter can then go on to found other chapters, and the more chapters of a specific lineage you have, the more likely they are to be chosen.

 

For the IF, don't forget that while Guilliman was splitting his legion down and founding new chapters, basically succession planning, Dorn took the remainder of his legion off to purge themselves in the iron cage - I forget how many survived that - wasnt it like 50 marines? Leaving very little ability to found second founding chapters. From the outset, Guilliman can make like 10+ new whole chapters, while Dorn could only found an additional 2, the fists and templars. Conversely, the Blood Angels could form 6 chapters from the remainder of the legion, double what the fists could, however then we get into geneseed/chapter selectivity based on the HLoT and the Mechanicum. However we also have to assume that they don't actually know about the Blood Angels Flaw - as so much of the literature says. Currently, only some select other chapters and cawl, somehow knows about the flaw, and maybe even noone knows about the black rage. All the HLoT and AdMech should see are beautiful looking, effective marines. No reason not to proliferate their gene-seed, aside from instability, however Malevolance has since retconned this into the BA having some of the strongest geneseed, able to turn pretty much anything into a marine successfully.

 

Blood Angels are weirdly overrepresented. In 3rd ed, we had 5 successors, the second founding only with a couple of tenuous/unconfirmed ones. By 5th I think we had 6 confirmed, then suddenly loads by devastation.

They actually retconned it only being two chapters for the Fists, they added a few more for The Beast Arises. I forget the exact number, but it was at least one more with the Fists Exemplar, and maybe the Excoriators?

[Xenith]

Yea, all prone to getting retconned - way back when legions were 10,000 strong and 5 marines survived the drop site massacre. Everything is orders of magnitude greater now, so I guess an order of magnitude more successors make sense too. 

[Medjugorje]

 

Nice discussion all! One also has to remember the dispositions of various legions at the time of the second founding. This is the biggest factor in determining how many current chapters there are (cawl/primaris notwithstanding), as each second founding chapter can then go on to found other chapters, and the more chapters of a specific lineage you have, the more likely they are to be chosen.

 

For the IF, don't forget that while Guilliman was splitting his legion down and founding new chapters, basically succession planning, Dorn took the remainder of his legion off to purge themselves in the iron cage - I forget how many survived that - wasnt it like 50 marines? Leaving very little ability to found second founding chapters. From the outset, Guilliman can make like 10+ new whole chapters, while Dorn could only found an additional 2, the fists and templars. Conversely, the Blood Angels could form 6 chapters from the remainder of the legion, double what the fists could, however then we get into geneseed/chapter selectivity based on the HLoT and the Mechanicum. However we also have to assume that they don't actually know about the Blood Angels Flaw - as so much of the literature says. Currently, only some select other chapters and cawl, somehow knows about the flaw, and maybe even noone knows about the black rage. All the HLoT and AdMech should see are beautiful looking, effective marines. No reason not to proliferate their gene-seed, aside from instability, however Malevolance has since retconned this into the BA having some of the strongest geneseed, able to turn pretty much anything into a marine successfully.

 

Blood Angels are weirdly overrepresented. In 3rd ed, we had 5 successors, the second founding only with a couple of tenuous/unconfirmed ones. By 5th I think we had 6 confirmed, then suddenly loads by devastation.

They actually retconned it only being two chapters for the Fists, they added a few more for The Beast Arises. I forget the exact number, but it was at least one more with the Fists Exemplar, and maybe the Excoriators?

 

There are way more. But as everytime the autors for different books / games dont know what others already established. The Excoriators are often not mentioned although they are a secound founding chapter, some autors mention Soul drinker, some not.

[Boldthreat]

 

[so there is still a chance for foreign DNA to be mixed in with true 7th Legion material. And that also means there is a chance that any successor could unintentionally spawn a successor chapter of a lost legion.

Incorporating those officers’ gene seeds spoils most of the purpose of that single-seed bottleneck. The Inq have purged a chapter before for genetic problems, neither the chapter nor mechanicus nor terra want that extra progenies in there.

 

And still in Avenging Son Guilliman clearly prefers those core leaders to stay formally separate from the new units.

 

 

I agree.  A Marine who falls in battle whilst on loan to another Chapter would HAVE to have his geneseed returned to his original Chapter, no matter if they share a Primogenitor or not.  The risk of contamination is too great.

 

The question is, were they concerned about this in the 4th Founding?  And almost all of the Imperial Fist Chapters of this era were 2nd Founding, meaning that the odds they had foreign geneseed in their Chapter vaults and in the Mechanicus vaults was virtually guaranteed by the very nature of the 2nd Founding and how those chapters were formed.  So even if the Veterans genetic material is returned to their original chapter... that still does not address the original contamination that happened to the Legion itself.  A second (and maybe third) founding chapter, unless it loses the lost legion geneseed through happenstance or discovers the abnormalities and purges them (and when and how would this happen?), will potentially always send tithes with multiple gene lines in it to the Mechanicus... meaning potentially leading to founding Chapters of a lost lineage.  

 

Remember, at the time of the War of the Beast, the Imperial Fists had all functioning organs.  So I imagine it would be extremely difficult to distinguish between the 3 potential strands.  So given that the Ultramarines and the Imperial Fists are doing this unawares... how many Chapters of the 4th Founding are actually entire Chapters of lost legion genetic material?  

 

This is a very real potentiality until the Ultima Founding.  I would wager if anyone knows this... its Belisarius Cawl.  And its around this time that the White Templars discover that they are not genetic descendants of Rogal Dorn.  So the good news is that all the Primaris Geneseed and replacements will combat this original problem.  Cawl knows who the progenitor of the White Templars is.  And I would wager their Primaris replacements all are using the geneseed of the Unkown Primarch.  And that is cool.  Conversely... are the new Soul Drinkers using Dorn geneseed... or is Cawl playing fast and loose here too?

 

So here is a fun game... look at the Imperial Fist and Ultramarine 2nd and 3rd founding chapters... who comes across as illegitimate children?  

 

Soul Drinkers are fishy.  And the prideful selfish guy in me wants to completely disown the Fist Exemplars lol.  But I have my suspicions on the Black Templars (maybe the Silver Templars and the Black Templars are secretly related?).  On the 13 Legion side... Mortifactors and Doom Eagles get my spidey senses tingling.  

 

And an even more fun game is once you have your suspicious chapters picked out... do you think you can see parallels between the ones you picked that were IF successors and the ones you picked that were Ultramarine successors?

 

(I am randomly connecting dots that aren't there mind you, its just fun to consider)... but I feel I can tie Chapters like the Howling Griffons, Iron Knights, and the various Templars (White, Silver... Maybe Black) to a overarching theme.  And less so I feel like Grim and seemingly superstitious chapters like the Soul Drinkers, Mortifactors, Fire Hawks (ironically they always claimed to be Ultramarines Successors) and Silver Skulls and even the Novamarines maybe... ect into another.  

 

So in my head... one of the Lost Legions was very knightly... and holy faith of some kind was prominent.  Could this have been their downfall... in a similar manner to Lorgar and the Word Bearers?  Maybe they did not want to give up their belief in a God and unlike Lorgar... didn't believe the Emperor was it either... directly conflicting with the Imperial Truth either way?  The other group seems to be grim and dour... with a sense of impending doom or a belief in spiritual portents and omens.  Ironically... both of these characteristics would find a home in the 7th Legion to a certain degree or another... which is doubly interesting, there used to be a theory about the Tarot and the Primarchs... and how they were tied together.  And the way it was presented had Dorn being close to both lost Primarchs in temperament.  If you can find that theory... pay attention to what it says about those primarchs and their attitudes.  Maybe this is what drove him to float fighting to absorb the Marines in the first place.  Out of love for his lost brothers that he was close to.  What if this was when he founded the Templars and the Holy temple on the Phalanx... the plot thickens lol.  

 

That is the beauty here.  All of the things I am picking apart could also easily be claimed to be due to chapter cult based on their respective homeworlds and have nothing to do with genetic lineage of the Primarch.  I truly believe that nurture plays more of a part than nature.  But there is just enough here to question that assertion.  All we will ever know is what we are specifically told... and everything we are told is a Lie.  I love this setting.

 

Ill leave this to kind of back up my point (even though I think its probably wrong)... Notice that before Dorn showed up... the Legion was very no nonsense... they would accept honours and trinkets in humbled silence.  The Phalanx Warders were the pinnacle of this ideal:

 

 

 

Even among the ranks of the Imperial Fists, the Warders were renowned for the stark regime under which they trained and served, eschewing any duty save their training, the protection of the Phalanx or the prosecution of war on the foes of Mankind. The Warders displayed few battle honours and practised no vainglorious rituals to mark achievement, holding the honour of continuing their service as the only mark of distinction they required. Staunch and immovable, they are the last line of defence when attack threatens and the first into the fray when the Legion boards enemy vessels. Warder detachments were often seconded to other companies of the Imperial Fists, honing their skills and lending their might to that of their brothers on battlefields across the galaxy. Most often they served aboard one of the VII Legion's warships, both as an unbreakable last line of defence against enemy boarders and as the hammer blow of any Imperial boarding assault.

 

Not the Templars... who would paint their armor Black in mourning... have symbols and robes and ceremony all over the place.  And Dorn's homeworld was not this.  Inwit was a death world that produced very practical and no-nonsense Space Vikings.  Pissed off and aggressive/brutal Imperial Fists are not Templars... they are Executioners like Fafnir Rann.   Dorn created the Templars... and the temple on the Phalanx... but where did this come from?  It did not come from Terra and the original Legion... and it did not come from Inwit.  Maybe it came from a brother or brothers that he was close to and was influenced by?

 

Maybe when Dorn told Sigismund he was not his Father... it was actually truer than either of them knew.  

 

I am not saying this theory is correct.  At all.  What I am saying... is its possible.  And in this setting that is all you need.  So bringing this back to the original point of the thread.  Even if the Ultramarines and the Imperial Fists are the most prominent genetic lines... this is in reality false... because many of their successors are not true successors. 

 

But on the other hand... I do not think it ultimately matters.  Are my adopted sons any less of my children?  No.  I am proud to be their Father.  This is where the White Templars are wrong.  It doesn't matter who their genetic lineage leads back to... they are sons of Rogal Dorn.  And as long as they subscribe to His ideals of what is expected of every Space Marine... he would call them Sons (as he did with Sigismund until he failed to uphold the truth of the 7th Legion).  This was the whole point of the Novella The Crimson Fist... One of these Imperial Fists was a true Imperial Fist... the other was not... and what separated them was why they made the decisions they made.   

[Medjugorje]

the theory of Sigismund (and the BT) are not real IF successors is proven WRONG already. Just read "Sigismund" and dont forget (because of "you are not my son") to read "WARHAWK"

[Brother Tyler]

Note that this discussion was split from the Percentage of Successor Chapters and Their Lineage discussion here because this was getting off topic.

[Boldthreat]

the theory of Sigismund (and the BT) are not real IF successors is proven WRONG already. Just read "Sigismund" and dont forget (because of "you are not my son") to read "WARHAWK"

You misunderstand. I’m not saying it’s real or not. I’m saying it’s possible. Very possible. Who is to say Sigismund’s memories were not altered, given that even the Primarch’s memories were? I don’t think this is something that you can ever hand wave away. Even if Sigismund or Dorn flat out tell you that Sigismund is a true son of Dorn… there is a chance that they are both wrong.

 

And let’s ignore Sigismund. Let’s assume it’s 100 percent true he is a true genetic son of Dorn. But what about those Black Templars of the 2nd Founding who aren’t? Given the nature of how Space Marines replace losses, there is a serious chance that through happenstance or what have you… a chapter that started out as predominately of The genetic heritage of Rogal Dorn… may change.

 

We can only assume if this has happened or not. But we know at least 2 Chapters have had issues that could fit into this exact scenario. And I believe it would be folly to assume it could not, or has not happened to others.

 

The only chapters who could dodge this scenario are the space marine chapters that were created using the genetic material of a single space marine who was truly a son of Dorn. That’s not the case of the 2nd Founding. The Second Founding Chapters of the Imperial Fists and the Ultramarines are tainted with foreign geneseed. Period. And given how expansive the 4th Founding was… there is a huge chance that the Imperial Fists and the Ultramarines created successors of the Lost Legions unbeknownst to anyone. So there is a very real possibility that the Imperial Fists and Ultramarines spawned chapters that are related to each other genetically, and not to the primogenitors that records will show they spawned from.

 

So even if Sigismund was a true son of Dorn. Even if Lucretius Corvo is a true son of Guilliman. Both could be wrong given how everyone was mentally altered on this… But even if they are right… there is a real possibility that over 10k years of losses and happenstance… both Chapters could actually end up more related than not.

 

And my Opinion on this, is that it’s so cool. But My enjoyment of Sigismund or the Black Templars has nothing to do with their genetic relation to Rogal Dorn. Even if they are not genetically his children, I would still say that they are in spirit and that is all that matters. Because I believe Dorn is of the character that his adopted children are his Sons. And those sons view him as father. Blood lineage does not matter here. And I think that’s cool.

 

You can find Ultramarines who act like Imperial Fists or Black Templars. And vice-Versa. Look at the Marines Errant or the new Wardens of the Rift. Look at the Fists Exemplars and the Imperial Fists for that matter. So yes, this theory is so easily dismissed. Except for the fact that the situation is there for it to be true as well. Which is to say, this theory is false until GW picks it up and runs with it when and if an author chose to do so. And if/when that happens, you will not be able to deny its possibility.

 

And I would argue they are hinting at it with the White Templars and the Soul Drinkers. But they could go the alpha legion route as well. Who knows?

 

The real question is… if Sigismund were officially declared a lost legion adoption… would you enjoy his story and legacy of the Black Templars less? I honestly think I would enjoy it more. It would just be another layer of cool surrounding all the cool. So instead of being a Night Lords candidate that got shuffled into the Imperial Fists… he was a Night Lords candidate shuffled into a Lost Legion and then adopted by the Imperial Fists. I don’t think that makes him any less of an Imperial Fist.

 

It’s not about if it’s true or not. It’s about the possibility. And I think it’s genius.

[Felix Antipodes]

While this is indeed a possible scenario, it is just that, and predicated on the unproven theory that the Lost Legions were actually absorbed into the another Legion (or possibly scattered across all of them).

I know this was spun out of the Head-Canon thread but I’m nor sure it stands up as possible lore imho.

[Boldthreat]

We know for sure thad the Ultramarines and the Imperial Fists absorbed marines from the lost legions. What we do not know, is if they were the only ones. There could have been others for sure. We just know that both Dorn and Guilliman advocated for this, so they did do it.

 

I doubt it will be explored in detail myself. I just think it’s a juicy nugget meant to be left out there for a player to latch onto and.nothing more.

 

We can’t even be certain that the Soul Drinkers and the White Templars are facing a situation because of this or something else.

 

I hope they explore it more. I would love a series on the White Templars and the crusade to discover the truth.

[Gamiel]

We know for sure thad the Ultramarines and the Imperial Fists absorbed marines from the lost legions.

Do we? Have it actually been said or is it just hints and winks that we in our want for it to be true declare sure evidence?

[lansalt]

 

We know for sure thad the Ultramarines and the Imperial Fists absorbed marines from the lost legions.

Do we? Have it actually been said or is it just hints and winks that we in our want for it to be true declare sure evidence?

 

IIRC it comes from "The chamber at the end of memory" short story, and WB talking about it in "The First Heretic".

[Boldthreat]

 

 

We know for sure thad the Ultramarines and the Imperial Fists absorbed marines from the lost legions.

Do we? Have it actually been said or is it just hints and winks that we in our want for it to be true declare sure evidence?

Yes. The Short story Chamber at the end of Memory. By James Swallow. The Space Marines of the Lost Primarchs we’re mind wiped and absorbed by the Imperial Fists and the Ultramarines for sure. The Primarchs were mind wiped as well. All the ones who knew their fallen Brothers.

 

Guilliman and Dorn were the ones specifically who pushed the mind alteration to save the Space Marines from the fate of their respective fathers. All we know is what these Primarchs did was really bad. Like worse than what Horus was doing.

 

We know for sure the Imperial Fists and the Ultramarines absorbed the fallen legions. What we do not know, is if other legions did as well. Remember, there are dark rumors that Autek Mor of the Iron Hands had Suspicious origins in regards to his bloodline/geneseed. So anything it is possible.

 

That is what makes this crazy. Dorn will not know who is a true son or who is not. The marines themselves will not know. Their mind wipe was seen as a mercy. Malcador was clear, this was Dorn and Guillimans plan. The Emperor did not order this, He allowed Dorn to do it.

 

Sigismund could be a Lost Legionnaire. So could Fafnir Rann. They would not know it. Dorn would not know it. I think some assume that when I say Dorn told Sigismund that he was not his son, that Dorn was making a statement that was a known genetic fact to him. I don’t think so. Dorn was disowning Sigismund because Sigismund made a decision that went against everything Dorn stood for. It had nothing to do with genetic lineage. And even though Warhawk brings this to resolution… there is a very real possibility that Dorn was correct in saying Sigismund was not his Son. It’s just neither of them will ever know it.

 

The real truth is we may never know. But what we can do is try to make educated guesses. This scenario is more than likely why there are discrepancies in the genetic history of the Soul Drinkers and the White Templars. Was the Soulspear a weapon of a Lost Primarch?

 

So here are the Facts:

 

The Imperial Fists absorbed some marines from the Lost Legions. We do not know how many.

 

The marines who were adopted were mind wiped and have no idea about their true history.

 

Rogal Dorn himself was mind wiped and had no idea this happened. In fact he was the one to float the idea and demand it, to save these marines from sharing the fate of their fathers.

 

The Second Founding was unique in that the Chapters formed here were formed from existing marines directly from the Legion, and not from a single progenoid like those of later foundings. And since the Soul Drinkers are a second/third Founding successor… and some Marines that were alive in the Heresy were alive in the War of the Beast… we have to assume that the 3rd Founding is iffy in this regard. So the odds the Second and Third Founding Chapters have foreign genetic material in their gene vaults is very high. This also means there is a chance that over 10000 years of happenstance could see any of these 2nd and 3rd founding Chapters become predominately not of Dorns genetic material a possibility. And given the Imperial Fists prevalence to dying to a man… it’s very possible it could be completely so, if unlikely.

 

Given how the 4th Founding emptied the gene vaults of terra to create 100s of new Chapters. There is a huge chance that many Chapters of complete lost legion material could have been founded that believe they are Imperial Fist successors. And hopefully the veterans who did form the new leadership for these chapters sent their genetic material back to their parent chapters. Or cross contamination is still possible. And because the Mechanicus increased the tithing of the existing chapters to re fill the genevaults… the chances of this happening again are very high.

 

The only chapters who could avoid this contamination would be of those of later Foundings (4th and later) who were founded using a single progenoid that links back to an original Imperial Fist legionary/Rogal Dorn.

 

The only characters alive in the current setting who could potentially be aware of this situation are The Emperor (good luck), Belisarius Cawl, and a certain Emperors Children apothecary. Unless some chapter secrets have this written down. But this would be super secret squirrel stuff worth killing over.

 

Potentially, the loss of the 2 organs could be an identifier to weed out foreign geneseed. We know these organs were still good in the War of the Beast/4th Founding however. So this could have been caught later when this problem reared it’s head. Or this could even have been done on purpose to find the tainted seed! What would be really crazy… is if the lost legion genetic material of the IF gene vaults also lost these organs… indicating foul play…

 

I hope someone officially explores this with the White Templar stuff. This could be one hell of a Rabbit Hole.

[Felix Antipodes]

@Brother Boldthreat

It appears I owe an apology as I thought you were using the gossip between Word Bearers, a scene disavowed by the author as just that (unfounded gossip), for the fate of the lost legions.  I completely missed that short story and its confirmation of their fate.

 

This makes the genealogy of the current IF even muddier (if that was possible) and could make an excellent story in itself if Cawl has access, and the means, to compare the geneseed of the various IF successors.

[lansalt]

For what's worth, Sigismund backstory and flashbacks have become too detailed for him to have been originally from one of the lost legions. There's just no room for it.  Rann or Polux are the same.

 

Whoever were the lost legion legionaries mixed with the IF, we've not seen them yet.

[Felix Antipodes]

It would be good to know if they were evenly spread throughout the legion or added as companies 428 thru 500.

[Boldthreat]

@Brother Boldthreat

It appears I owe an apology as I thought you were using the gossip between Word Bearers, a scene disavowed by the author as just that (unfounded gossip), for the fate of the lost legions. I completely missed that short story and its confirmation of their fate.

 

This makes the genealogy of the current IF even muddier (if that was possible) and could make an excellent story in itself if Cawl has access, and the means, to compare the geneseed of the various IF successors.

No apology necessary. This is a fun subject. I want to be clear, what I’m saying could be wrong. But we can no longer say that without an asterisk. The window is open for this to be a thing.

 

I absolutely agree. I don’t think the Authors would have published this without a plan to explore it more later. I hope the White Templars are explored more.

[Gamiel]

I absolutely agree. I don’t think the Authors would have published this without a plan to explore it more later. I hope the White Templars are explored more.

This is Wh40k. Presenting out stuff without any plan to use it or at least any plan to use it in the planed future is their thing. Timeline events, Chapter names, strange xenos, planets, CSM warbands, are all thrown out just to fill space/make the Galaxy seem lived in/as inspiration for people like us.

 

I would not be one bit surprised if they have no plans to use those things in the future or have no plan that any canon chapter are decendents of II and XI.

[Boldthreat]

 

I absolutely agree. I don’t think the Authors would have published this without a plan to explore it more later. I hope the White Templars are explored more.

This is Wh40k. Presenting out stuff without any plan to use it or at least any plan to use it in the planed future is their thing. Timeline events, Chapter names, strange xenos, planets, CSM warbands, are all thrown out just to fill space/make the Galaxy seem lived in/as inspiration for people like us.

 

I would not be one bit surprised if they have no plans to use those things in the future or have no plan that any canon chapter are decendents of II and XI.

 

 

Normally I would agree.  This is not a one off line in the middle of a Codex.  This was a short story in the Horus Heresy covered by a popular BL author.  And as we know, when discussing what is going into the Horus Heresy novels, the authors have panels and discussions and they talk this out.  Then they get approval and write the story.  So this is not happenstance.  This story was written with a purpose and I believe the authors are good enough at what they do to actually talk about the ramifications of this revelation.

 

Now absolutely, they may not go anywhere with it.  But this opens a door to somewhere.  Could this tie to the Soul Drinkers?  Or the White Templars?  Or some other unknown story?  We will never know unless a BL author decides to walk us down that path.  And I am ok with them not touching it at all moving forward.  If all it does is allow someone to take that story and run with it in his own campaign.  Then that is a win.  

 

So assuming the White Templars stuff is explored... what could a Crusade hope to accomplish and where would they go?  Well... if they know who their Primogenitor is, that would be the first place I would go.  To see what their Chapter History says about the subject, and what they believe.  And they would have to walk back primogenitors until they get to the 1st Founding Legion.  If the revelation came from Cawl and the Primaris... then finding Belisarius Cawl would be another primary objective.  And I think you could cover this in a single story or draw it out for more as well.  This would have been a difficult task prior to the opening of the Great Rift... the current setting makes this even more of a nightmare.  

 

And the Soul Drinkers are getting new novels... so here is another story that could touch on this.  Here is hoping they get stuck in with it.

[Felix Antipodes]

Here’s a twist for you.  Cawl has called the White Templars as from the UM line and not the IF as they had claimed.  He probably based this on comparing their geneseed to other UM geneseed.

 

What if the UM sample was from one of the lost legionnaires absorbed into Guilliman’s line?  They would be identical but from neither the UM or IF lines.

 

Sliding doors…

[Boldthreat]

Here’s a twist for you. Cawl has called the White Templars as from the UM line and not the IF as they had claimed. He probably based this on comparing their geneseed to other UM geneseed.

 

What if the UM sample was from one of the lost legionnaires absorbed into Guilliman’s line? They would be identical but from neither the UM or IF lines.

 

Sliding doors…

Exactly. The potentiality that we have IF successors and UM successors that are actually related and do not know it is a huge wrench in attempting to unwind this web.

 

Are the Silver Templars really Ultramarines successors? Are they related to the White Templars? One question that would be super important to know… would be if the White Templars were missing the lost organs that was normally missing with the Imperial Fists successors. Both potential answers would not necessarily torpedo this theory… a no answer would be further evidence of the link between this chapter and other ultramarines successors (real and not real) and a no would mean that the IF geneseed as a whole was tampered with, and it was not genetic degeneration that caused this loss. We know for sure that the IF chapters had these organs in the War of the Beast.

 

Belisarius Cawl has to know. If he is thinking of using traitor geneseed against Guilliman’s orders, then throwing lost legion stuff out there is just as possible.

 

And remember, the Primaris geneseed restores the lost 2 organs to the Imperial Fists and their successors, which could only further make identification more difficult. The only thing that we know would be a identifier in this current setting would be ease of recruit acceptance. And even then, even the Black Book on the Imperial Fist legion couldn’t confirm if this was a genetic thing or the tradition that the fists used to implement it. And Dark Imperium stated that those chapters who accepted the new Primaris geneseed had to accept the reforms to implementation as well. In short who knows. But if IF geneseed is more painful and dangerous to recruits, that’s the only identifier we will have.

 

When the Ultramarines are producing Silver Templars, Castellans of the Rift and Marines Errant… it would be hard to tell the difference between IF and UM chapters.

 

Another stop for the White Templars would be Guilliman himself. Time for a Paternity test Mr. Guilliman.

[Gamiel]

Are the Silver Templars really Ultramarines successors? 

Yes. Why should they not be?

 

 Are they related to the White Templars? 

Why should they be? Because they both have Templar in their name? 

 

 When the Ultramarines are producing Silver Templars, Castellans of the Rift and Marines Errant… it would be hard to tell the difference between IF and UM chapters.

You seems to be going with the idea that nature is more important then nurture when it comes tha chapters' character. But have not GW established that beside some preferences of things and gene-seed flaws (like the BA's and IF's) so can any successor be as near or different to their First Founding "dads" as you/the author wants. So you want can if you want creat a DA successor that look very hellenistic and is known to be friendly, social and usually try to work toghter with any available allies, or UM successors that are imperial Russia-ish and have nothing but contempt for anybody that's not high officers or nobility, or WS successor that have spent their first generations fighting alongside the IF and have taken much of their culture and warfare into their own chapter ways. 

 

It feels a bit like many of your arguments that this or that chapter could be of a different gene-seed than it's claimed are built upon the princip that all chapters that share the same primarch should have a very similar culture, no matter the long time they have been their own thing with their own different homeworld and different recruitment pool. And we do have descriptions of newly created chapters* that as part of their first years decide to not be "daddy jr" but to work to become their own thing by embracing the ways and culture of their assigned homeworld. 

* ex. the Silver Templars and Dragonspears

 

Also, re. the White Templars, it has not been stated outright that they are not IF successors just that their claims of being that have been thrown into doubt by recent Administratum discoveries. For all we know the thing could be that it's the Administratum that could be wrong in this instance (shocking as it may be). 

[Boldthreat]

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Yes. Why should they not be?

This is the entire point of this thread.  If the 7th and 13th Legions accepted Space Marines from the unknown legions prior to the 2nd Founding, and neither they... nor their adoptive Primarchs would know it... then the possibility of Chapters claiming to be sons of Dorn or Guilliman could in fact be scions of the unknown Primarchs.  We do not know what Cawl knows when it comes to the genetic legacies of Chapters founded in the Ultima Founding.  He could be passing off Chapters as Imperial Fists and or Ultramarine successor chapters that are actually using the genetic material of the Traitor Legions and/or the Unkown Legions.  Yes, they could NOT be Ultramarines Successors.

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Why should they be? Because they both have Templar in their name?

My first post here addresses this: 

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This is a very real potentiality until the Ultima Founding.  I would wager if anyone knows this... its Belisarius Cawl.  And its around this time that the White Templars discover that they are not genetic descendants of Rogal Dorn.  So the good news is that all the Primaris Geneseed and replacements will combat this original problem.  Cawl knows who the progenitor of the White Templars is.  And I would wager their Primaris replacements all are using the geneseed of the Unkown Primarch.  And that is cool.  Conversely... are the new Soul Drinkers using Dorn geneseed... or is Cawl playing fast and loose here too?

So here is a fun game... look at the Imperial Fist and Ultramarine 2nd and 3rd founding chapters... who comes across as illegitimate children?  

Soul Drinkers are fishy.  And the prideful selfish guy in me wants to completely disown the Fist Exemplars lol.  But I have my suspicions on the Black Templars (maybe the Silver Templars and the Black Templars are secretly related?).  On the 13 Legion side... Mortifactors and Doom Eagles get my spidey senses tingling.  

And an even more fun game is once you have your suspicious chapters picked out... do you think you can see parallels between the ones you picked that were IF successors and the ones you picked that were Ultramarine successors?

(I am randomly connecting dots that aren't there mind you, its just fun to consider)... but I feel I can tie Chapters like the Howling Griffons, Iron Knights, and the various Templars (White, Silver... Maybe Black) to a overarching theme.  And less so I feel like Grim and seemingly superstitious chapters like the Soul Drinkers, Mortifactors, Fire Hawks (ironically they always claimed to be Ultramarines Successors) and Silver Skulls and even the Novamarines maybe... ect into another.  

So in my head... one of the Lost Legions was very knightly... and holy faith of some kind was prominent.  Could this have been their downfall... in a similar manner to Lorgar and the Word Bearers?  Maybe they did not want to give up their belief in a God and unlike Lorgar... didn't believe the Emperor was it either... directly conflicting with the Imperial Truth either way?  The other group seems to be grim and dour... with a sense of impending doom or a belief in spiritual portents and omens.  Ironically... both of these characteristics would find a home in the 7th Legion to a certain degree or another... which is doubly interesting, there used to be a theory about the Tarot and the Primarchs... and how they were tied together.  And the way it was presented had Dorn being close to both lost Primarchs in temperament.  If you can find that theory... pay attention to what it says about those primarchs and their attitudes.  Maybe this is what drove him to float fighting to absorb the Marines in the first place.  Out of love for his lost brothers that he was close to.  What if this was when he founded the Templars and the Holy temple on the Phalanx... the plot thickens lol.  

and

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That is the beauty here.  All of the things I am picking apart could also easily be claimed to be due to chapter cult based on their respective homeworlds and have nothing to do with genetic lineage of the Primarch.  I truly believe that nurture plays more of a part than nature.  But there is just enough here to question that assertion.  All we will ever know is what we are specifically told... and everything we are told is a Lie.  I love this setting.

Ill leave this to kind of back up my point (even though I think its probably wrong)... Notice that before Dorn showed up... the Legion was very no nonsense... they would accept honours and trinkets in humbled silence.  The Phalanx Warders were the pinnacle of this ideal:

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Even among the ranks of the Imperial Fists, the Warders were renowned for the stark regime under which they trained and served, eschewing any duty save their training, the protection of the Phalanx or the prosecution of war on the foes of Mankind. The Warders displayed few battle honours and practised no vainglorious rituals to mark achievement, holding the honour of continuing their service as the only mark of distinction they required. Staunch and immovable, they are the last line of defence when attack threatens and the first into the fray when the Legion boards enemy vessels. Warder detachments were often seconded to other companies of the Imperial Fists, honing their skills and lending their might to that of their brothers on battlefields across the galaxy. Most often they served aboard one of the VII Legion's warships, both as an unbreakable last line of defence against enemy boarders and as the hammer blow of any Imperial boarding assault.

 

Not the Templars... who would paint their armor Black in mourning... have symbols and robes and ceremony all over the place.  And Dorn's homeworld was not this.  Inwit was a death world that produced very practical and no-nonsense Space Vikings.  Pissed off and aggressive/brutal Imperial Fists are not Templars... they are Executioners like Fafnir Rann.   Dorn created the Templars... and the temple on the Phalanx... but where did this come from?  It did not come from Terra and the original Legion... and it did not come from Inwit.  Maybe it came from a brother or brothers that he was close to and was influenced by?

Maybe when Dorn told Sigismund he was not his Father... it was actually truer than either of them knew.  

I am not saying this theory is correct.  At all.  What I am saying... is its possible.  And in this setting that is all you need.  So bringing this back to the original point of the thread.  Even if the Ultramarines and the Imperial Fists are the most prominent genetic lines... this is in reality false... because many of their successors are not true successors. 

But on the other hand... I do not think it ultimately matters.  Are my adopted sons any less of my children?  No.  I am proud to be their Father.  This is where the White Templars are wrong.  It doesn't matter who their genetic lineage leads back to... they are sons of Rogal Dorn.  And as long as they subscribe to His ideals of what is expected of every Space Marine... he would call them Sons (as he did with Sigismund until he failed to uphold the truth of the 7th Legion).  This was the whole point of the Novella The Crimson Fist... One of these Imperial Fists was a true Imperial Fist... the other was not... and what separated them was why they made the decisions they made. 

As I hope you can see... there is more to it than just the word Templar... given that I bring up seeing potential similarities in chapters like the Howling Griffons and the Iron Knights.  And it's not because of the name.  It's tied to the character of various chapters and if I feel they fit a potential archetype of what could be more than just nurture.  And I will touch on this more in my next responses.

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You seems to be going with the idea that nature is more important then nurture when it comes tha chapters' character. But have not GW established that beside some preferences of things and gene-seed flaws (like the BA's and IF's) so can any successor be as near or different to their First Founding "dads" as you/the author wants. So you want can if you want creat a DA successor that look very hellenistic and is known to be friendly, social and usually try to work toghter with any available allies, or UM successors that are imperial Russia-ish and have nothing but contempt for anybody that's not high officers or nobility, or WS successor that have spent their first generations fighting alongside the IF and have taken much of their culture and warfare into their own chapter ways. 

Thats odd, because as shown above I said:

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That is the beauty here.  All of the things I am picking apart could also easily be claimed to be due to chapter cult based on their respective homeworlds and have nothing to do with genetic lineage of the Primarch.  I truly believe that nurture plays more of a part than nature.  But there is just enough here to question that assertion.  All we will ever know is what we are specifically told... and everything we are told is a Lie.  I love this setting.

But I want to add to this.  Because I think it's something that you might be overlooking.  On one hand, as you can see above... you actually agreed with my belief in nurture being more important than nature.  But you also need to dive into the character of the VII Legion more.  Quoted from 40kWiki:

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The first battalions of the VII Legion were raised from across Terra as shown by their earliest battle honour, "Roma." While many other Legions drew their recruits from a particular source, the flesh of the VII Legion came from Terra as a whole.

Even in domains where other Legions had "Rights of Tithe," the VII Legion took some of the youths as Initiates. Often these would be those who exhibited the greatest capacity for endurance, both in mind and body. Many were of a taciturn nature, slow to talk but quick to act.

Why so many of such a wide pool of recruits should be similar is unclear. Certainly, the processes used to activate the VII Legion's gene-seed seem to have inflicted intense pain, and so perhaps it was a purposeful selection of stock suited to surviving the process.

It is also possible that a pattern of recruitment once formed perpetuated until it was tradition. No matter the reason, the grim nature of those recruited into the VII Legion was well-suited to their use.

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Primarchs are transcendent beings, holding a portion of the sublime and unknowable in their nature. All the qualities which seem strong in a warrior of a Legion exist more strongly, more deeply and with greater subtlety in a Primarch.

Though spun from the seed of humanity the Primarchs are not human. This nature often seems to enhance and focus the qualities gifted to a Legion by their gene-seed. So it is that at the moment at which Primarch and Legion unite, there is often a point at which a Legion's character may seem to shift.

In the case of the Imperial Fists, the discovery of their Primarch, and the planet which had raised him, only strengthened the character the Imperial Fists had shown since their creation.

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Few integrations of Primarch and Legion were as swift or as complete as that between Rogal Dorn and the Imperial Fists. The ideals of the Imperium, and the purpose of the Great Crusade fitted with Dorn's outlook and drive, and the warriors of the Imperial Fists were exemplars not only of everything that he had built in the Inwit Cluster, but everything he had dreamed of for its future.

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In their methods of war, the ways of Inwit and the echoes of the VII Legion's victories combined. They drove ever on, without pause or respite. Just as on Terra they fortified and built to secure what they conquered, but just as before they did not linger to rule their conquests.

What I am getting at... is that almost uniquely... the VII Legion did not have an identity based on whatever region or culture of Terra they came from.  They recruited from all regions, even those that were assigned to other Legions (that lead to the character of those Legions prior to the return of their Primarchs).  On top of that... the very nature of the geneseed of this legion seemed to weed out all but a particular kind of man, for whatever the real reason was.  On top of that... again, almost uniquely Rogal Dorn's transition to command of the Legion did not see the Legion change significantly in culture or character, only strengthening what was already there.  So what I am getting at... is that despite whatever region or culture, despite the influence of their Primarch, the VII Legion geneseed DOES produce a specific kind of space marine and organization.  What produced the character of the Imperial Fist Legion was the geneseed of Rogal Dorn more than anything else.  I don't see successor Chapters with true VII Legion Geneseed falling too far from the family tree in regards to character.  I think an Ultramarine Successor can be a spot on Imperial Fist clone.  I think a White Scar Successor can too.  I think a Blood Angels Successor can too until the genetic issues show up.  And I am not saying that an IF Successor Chapter is going to always be a clone of the Legion... nurture does have a role... but I think there is a case that IF Geneseed, through its selection process, creates a specific thing that is harder to be divergent from than other genetic lineages.         

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It feels a bit like many of your arguments that this or that chapter could be of a different gene-seed than it's claimed are built upon the princip that all chapters that share the same primarch should have a very similar culture, no matter the long time they have been their own thing with their own different homeworld and different recruitment pool. And we do have descriptions of newly created chapters* that as part of their first years decide to not be "daddy jr" but to work to become their own thing by embracing the ways and culture of their assigned homeworld. 

Another odd statement, because the point of the quote that you responded to, was:  If the Ultramarines can legitimately produce Silver Templars, Castellans of the Rift and Marines Errant... then telling them apart from Imperial Fists Successors (When the Imperial Fists get their organs restored in the Primaris project and before when they were not missing the two organs) would be practically impossible.  

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Also, re. the White Templars, it has not been stated outright that they are not IF successors just that their claims of being that have been thrown into doubt by recent Administratum discoveries. For all we know the thing could be that it's the Administratum that could be wrong in this instance (shocking as it may be). 

Indeed.  I don't think you understand what I am saying.  I could be wrong on the White Templars.  I even state this in the thread that this thread was ported from.  I could be right.  Neither you nor I will ever get any vindication on this unless Black Library makes a point to answer it.  It could be an Administratum error... they could be a Chapter taken over by the Alpha Legion and forgot they were Alpha Legion... it could be anything.  The Black Templars are probably of Dorn's genetic material... and the Silver Templars are probably Ultramarines.  The whole point of this discussion is that it is so muddy that you cannot gate-keep against the idea, nor can you truly know how prevalent the successor Chapters of the Ultramarines and the Imperial Fists are... because some of them are from an Unknown Legion, and even if we will NEVER know who they are... they are out there.  And you cannot claim it's not possible.  

[Kurgan the Lurker]

From the Astartes Master List. These are all Lore Cited Successors:

Black Templar

Celestial Lions

Crimson Axes (destroyed)

Crimson Fist

Death Strike (possible)

Excoriators

Executioners (possibly retconned after IA9)

Fire Lords (possibly retconned)

Hammers of Dorn

Iron Champions 

Iron Knights

Skull Bearers

Sons of the Phoenix

Soul Drinkers (has changed more than once however)

Venom Thorns (Renegades)

White Templar (possibly retconned since Legion of the Damned was released)

 

[Boldthreat]

Going off memory, that list seems incomplete.

I believe these have been mentioned in novels/short stories:

Shadow Wolves - (destroyed)

Fists Exemplars - (renegade/destroyed)

Astral Knights - (destroyed)

Emperor’s Warbringers (short story on a ancient relic bolt gun I think)

I believe these are confirmed, but cannot recall if they have a novel/short story to back it up:

Subjugators

Red Templars

Invaders

And I wanted to add the Celestial Guard… but it now seems like they are unknown.  So I do not know what happened there.

I hope the Fire Lords stay Imperial Fist successors.  Ever since Praetorian of Dorn I thought the little ceremony where they swore their oaths with their hands in a fire until it was blackened was a great reference to the Fire Lords badge.  

I want to theorize that the Sable Swords are IF successors.  But I do not know for sure.  

And can it be argued that the Retributors are official now?

[Kurgan the Lurker]

Yeah I just did a quick search of my file (400+ pages) so the list I posted above is definitely not complete.