Imperial Fists Legion Successors Discussion

[Gamiel]

On 6/25/2022 at 4:24 AM, Boldthreat said:

This is the entire point of this thread.  If the 7th and 13th Legions accepted Space Marines from the unknown legions prior to the 2nd Founding, and neither they... nor their adoptive Primarchs would know it... then the possibility of Chapters claiming to be sons of Dorn or Guilliman could in fact be scions of the unknown Primarchs.  We do not know what Cawl knows when it comes to the genetic legacies of Chapters founded in the Ultima Founding.  He could be passing off Chapters as Imperial Fists and or Ultramarine successor chapters that are actually using the genetic material of the Traitor Legions and/or the Unkown Legions.  Yes, they could NOT be Ultramarines Successors

Yes, but why should the Silver Templars not be of Ultramarine gene-seed? Why singel out them and not the Nemesis, Iron Snakes, Hawk Lords or some other Um successor?

 

On 6/25/2022 at 4:24 AM, Boldthreat said:

What I am getting at... is that almost uniquely... the VII Legion did not have an identity based on whatever region or culture of Terra they came from. 

Will have to disagree that it was "almost uniquely", the I recruited from across Terra, the III was gifted the children of nobility that had bent knee the Emperor, the IX recruited from the lost and dispossessed of Terra, the XI +++corrupt data+++, the XII recruited from no particular geographic  ground, the XIII and the XVII got their original recruits from the sons of defeated enemies.

 

On 6/25/2022 at 4:24 AM, Boldthreat said:

I don't see successor Chapters with true VII Legion Geneseed falling too far from the family tree in regards to character.

Was that not that one of the points during the War of the Beast books that the different IF successors had drifted to far away from each other for them to truly act as a cohesive Legion again, even when they all answered the Last Wall protocol?

 

On 6/25/2022 at 4:24 AM, Boldthreat said:

Another odd statement, because the point of the quote that you responded to, was:  If the Ultramarines can legitimately produce Silver Templars, Castellans of the Rift and Marines Errant... then telling them apart from Imperial Fists Successors (When the Imperial Fists get their organs restored in the Primaris project and before when they were not missing the two organs) would be practically impossible. 

Aha, I missunderstod your point. Sorry.

 

On 6/25/2022 at 4:24 AM, Boldthreat said:

And you cannot claim it's not possible.  

I'm not trying to claim it's not possible, just pointing out alternative reasons to some of your theories and holes in other, based what we know today (which may change tomorrow).

 

Part of it is that I have seen a bit to many fans act as if fan theories regarding chapters gene-seed origin is canon and claims that some Chapters are not of the origin they say they are because they don't act as daddy, or have colours/symbols that are similar to traitor Legions. 

 

 

 

On 5/23/2022 at 5:53 AM, Boldthreat said:

And that is cool.  Conversely... are the new Soul Drinkers using Dorn geneseed... or is Cawl playing fast and loose here too?

To my understanding so are recreated lost chapter either created using the gene-seed they have deposited to Terra, or the gene-seed of their (supposed ) founding Legion (maybe in the form of members of the Unnumbered Sons that are given the old chapter's name and colours). For example did the Blood Ravens just get handed the primaris technology and Blood Raven marked gene-seed from the vaults of Terra, no information about their origin or gene-lineage.

 

Based on that the Ultima founding Soul Drinkers we see do mention that they have an overactive omophagea organ is it likely that they were created using the gene-seed that the original SD deposited to Terra. 

 

On 5/23/2022 at 5:53 AM, Boldthreat said:

And the prideful selfish guy in me wants to completely disown the Fist Exemplars lol. 

Why? Just wondering

 

On 5/23/2022 at 5:53 AM, Boldthreat said:

This is a very real potentiality until the Ultima Founding.  I would wager if anyone knows this... its Belisarius Cawl.  And its around this time that the White Templars discover that they are not genetic descendants of Rogal Dorn.  So the good news is that all the Primaris Geneseed and replacements will combat this original problem.  Cawl knows who the progenitor of the White Templars is.  And I would wager their Primaris replacements all are using the geneseed of the Unkown Primarch.  And that is cool.  Conversely... are the new Soul Drinkers using Dorn geneseed... or is Cawl playing fast and loose here too?

I'm of a different oppinion, the thing is that we have to remember that Cawl did not creat new primaris for every chapter or using all the different gene-seed in the gene-seed vaults. He "only" created massive legion sized forces for each of the 9 Loyalist first-founding chapters only using their original gene-seed. These were eventually split and assigned to chapters of their gene-lines, or used to create new chapters. And Cawl had nothing to do with who got asigned where.

If the White Templars got primaris reinforcement it would be in the form of IF primaris since they are overall written down as a IF successor chapter, if they did not get any reinforcement it would be like with the Blood Ravens: just get handed the primaris technology and WT marked gene-seed from the vaults of Terra, no information about their origin or gene-lineage.

Edited July 2, 2022 by Gamiel

[Boldthreat]

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Yes, but why should the Silver Templars not be of Ultramarine gene-seed? Why singel out them and not the Nemesis, Iron Snakes, Hawk Lords or some other Um successor?

Because I was needing an Ultima Founding chapter for that particular point.  And of all the Ultramarines Ultima Founding Chapters, the Silver Templars fit closer to the archtype that I was looking for (Knightly chapter, more aggressive and impulsive, and maybe a reliance on superstitions) than say the Fulminators or the Castellans of the Rift.  And again, I am not saying I have concrete evidence that the Silver Templars are not Ultramarines successors... it's not like Space Marines being Knightly, or superstitious or aggressive makes them anything but typical.  Which is admittedly problematic for this position I admit... but that's irrelevant really, because it's not important to me who could be a lost legion successor... just that this situation exists.

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Will have to disagree that it was "almost uniquely", the I recruited from across Terra, the III was gifted the children of nobility that had bent knee the Emperor, the IX recruited from the lost and dispossessed of Terra, the XI +++corrupt data+++, the XII recruited from no particular geographic  ground, the XIII and the XVII got their original recruits from the sons of defeated enemies.

The I Legion I am not so sure.  I am not saying you are wrong; I just have not read this myself.  I could be wrong.

The III Legion recruited from the Nobles of Europa, a particular region of Terra.

The IV Legion recruited from the Auro Plateau of Sek-Amrak.

The V Legion recruited from the technomadic tribes of the Thulean Basin.

The VI Legion is shrouded in more secrecy than others.  But it seems to appear that the recruits were recruited from the most barbaric and hyper aggressive regressive peoples from across Terra.  So not region specific per say, but there is a underlying theme here.  

The VII Legion - We already touched on this.

The VIII Legion recruited from the linked prison sinks of ancient Terra.

The IX Legion seemed to recruit from not just the lost and dispossessed... but the mutated lost and dispossessed in horrific rad zones and poisoned wastelands.  So, there was a specific type here.

The X Legion recruited from all accross Terra... but a substantial number of them came from Old Albia.

The XII Legion seemed to recruit from everyone but screened for that they sought out the most aggressive of persons.

The XIII Legion recruited from a wide pool across Terra as well... but specifically it seems to regions that were bitterly resistant to Unification.  And Specifically orphaned people from these regions.  So, there is a link here.

The XIV Legion recruited most of its recruits from Old Albia.

The XV Legion got its initial recruits from the Achaemenid Empire.

The XVI Legion got its initial batches from Jutigran Bowl and the Samsatian sub-plate sums.

The XVII Legion recruited from the exterminated foes of the Emperor.  Probably means everyone lol.

The XVIII Legion... like the Space Wolves and the Alpha Legion are shrouded in more secrecy than others.  I do not know here.

The XIX Legion recruited from the Xeric Tribes of the Asiatic Dustfields.

The XX Legion... yeah who knows?

I think I will stand by my claim of "almost uniquely".  Almost every other single legion was influenced by a particular region or group of people with similar situations.  The only other legion that sticks out to me as doing something similar here is the World Eaters and the Space Wolves.  And even the Word Bearers and the Space Wolves were heavily influenced by their Primarch's and/or the Worlds they were found on.  They all were.  Except the Imperial Fists.  Dorn only strengthened what was already there, and Inwit seemed to be a world that produced the kind of people that were recruited into the VII Legion anyway.  

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Was that not that one of the points during the War of the Beast books that the different IF successors had drifted to far away from each other for them to truly act as a cohesive Legion again, even when they all answered the Last Wall protocol?

Good point, but I think that could still be a ramification of the foreign geneseed.  I argue that all of the Imperial Fist successors of the 2nd and 3rd Foundings could potentially be affected by marines with suspect lineages.  It's a messy answer for sure... but it's all I have.  Maybe the Black Templars were mostly II Legion?  Maybe the Excoriators and or the Soul Drinkers were mostly XI Legion?  I do not know.  And I would also argue that since most of these Chapters are crusading chapters in this era (Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Executioners, Iron Knights (Wiki says they have a homeworld but are a Crusading chapter... IDK) that not enough time has passed for them to really become that different in my opinion.  So, if some of these chapters started favoring a particular geneseed through losses... that could explain the slight change in behavior/temperment over a short period of time.  

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Aha, I missunderstod your point. Sorry.

Accepted.  Lord knows I am not doing anything but trying to connect dots using existing Lore.  I just believe the ramifications from that particular short story are HUGE for the VII and XIII Legions.  It changes how I look at successors of both legions personally.  It has too.  

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I'm not trying to claim it's not possible, just pointing out alternative reasons to some of your theories and holes in other, based what we know today (which may change tomorrow).

 

Part of it is that I have seen a bit to many fans act as if fan theories regarding chapters gene-seed origin is canon and claims that some Chapters are not of the origin they say they are because they don't act as daddy, or have colours/symbols that are similar to traitor Legions. 

And that's fair.  Really it is.  I'm not really concerned with if I am potentially right on this chapter, or this character.  That is not important.  What is important is that we understand that everything is up in the air in this regard.  Sigismund could be a Space Marine of one of the unknown Legions.  Polux could.  Rann could.  The Black Templars could be scions of a unknown Primarch.  No one knows.  Thats the killer, no one will know.  And everyone who could know is dead/missing/not talking.  All we can do is discuss who we think could be scions of another Primarch and why.  And unless GW officially answers the question for a particular character and chapter in a way that removes all doubt... we cannot tell someone that this character or this chapter is 100 percent an Imperial Fist Successor.  

And in regard to your last comment here... which is a reasonable position... I just think that there is evidence that the Imperial Fist geneseed produces a particular kind of Space Marine... and as a byproduct of that... an organization that is in line with Rogal Dorn himself.  So almost uniquely I think if you find a chapter or character that does not seem to be in line with Rogal Dorn's character or in line of the Legion's character prior to Dorn's discovery... there is a real possibility that they could be of another genetic line.  Thats why I suspect Sigismund.  I do not believe Rogal Dorn knows that there is even a possibility that Sigismund was not his son.  But I do believe that when Dorn discovered the flaw in Sigismunds decision to not lead the Retribution Fleet and disowned him... it was clearly because Sigimsund did not think like an Imperial Fist.  Conversely Alexis Polux did... when he immediately obeyed his orders even despite the fact that it appeared he was winning.  Because true Imperial Fists should only care about duty.  Not what they want, how they will be remembered, or anything else.  Sigismund's direct divergence of this creed is critical to me.  It proves that he doesn't think like other Imperial Fists.  It may be because he is not one originally.  And I think that is cool.  Regardless with the reconciliation later in the series... it's that initial conversation which could lead to the credibility of Sigismund actually not being a true son of Dorn.  

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To my understanding so are recreated lost chapter either created using the gene-seed they have deposited to Terra, or the gene-seed of their (supposed ) founding Legion (maybe in the form of members of the Unnumbered Sons that are given the old chapter's name and colours). For example did the Blood Ravens just get handed the primaris technology and Blood Raven marked gene-seed from the vaults of Terra, no information about their origin or gene-lineage.

 

Based on that the Ultima founding Soul Drinkers we see do mention that they have an overactive omophagea organ is it likely that they were created using the gene-seed that the original SD deposited to Terra. 

Who knows.  I hope this gets explored officially... no matter where it goes.  I am all on board more Soul Drinker novels.  And I hope they do something with the White Templars too!  Both stories could actually be linked... or they could go off into their own things completely unrelated to this theory.

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Why? Just wondering

That was more a joke than anything.  When I initially read the War of the Beast series... I was so bummed out that the first chapter to turn renegade post the Horus Heresy was from the Imperial Fists.  That upset me more than the Imperial Fists getting wiped out lol.  

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I'm of a different oppinion, the thing is that we have to remember that Cawl did not creat new primaris for every chapter or using all the different gene-seed in the gene-seed vaults. He "only" created massive legion sized forces for each of the 9 Loyalist first-founding chapters only using their original gene-seed. These were eventually split and assigned to chapters of their gene-lines, or used to create new chapters. And Cawl had nothing to do with who got asigned where.

If the White Templars got primaris reinforcement it would be in the form of IF primaris since they are overall written down as a IF successor chapter, if they did not get any reinforcement it would be like with the Blood Ravens: just get handed the primaris technology and WT marked gene-seed from the vaults of Terra, no information about their origin or gene-lineage.

You could be right.  I just do not trust Cawl.  And I think he knows more than he lets Guilliman believe.  I think the Sons of the Phoenix are III Legion successors, and because I believe that (and I readily admit it's because of the perceived visual cues of the colors and name alone... IE my own bias) Cawl is already playing fast and loose.  So because I believe he is already throwing out chapters with traitor seed... I think he is throwing out successors of the unknown legions and passing them off as Ultramarines and Imperial Fists as well.  

[Gamiel]

2 hours ago, Boldthreat said:

Because I was needing an Ultima Founding chapter for that particular point.  And of all the Ultramarines Ultima Founding Chapters, the Silver Templars fit closer to the archtype that I was looking for (Knightly chapter, more aggressive and impulsive, and maybe a reliance on superstitions) than say the Fulminators or the Castellans of the Rift.  And again, I am not saying I have concrete evidence that the Silver Templars are not Ultramarines successors... it's not like Space Marines being Knightly, or superstitious or aggressive makes them anything but typical.  Which is admittedly problematic for this position I admit... but that's irrelevant really, because it's not important to me who could be a lost legion successor... just that this situation exists.

Aha, then I understand your logic. Even if I have to disagree that the Silver Templars are that knightly, they are more duellists and totem-warriors with their totem being the sword (with their focus on making and remaking their own blades, honourblades, constantly duelling with them and mastering swordsmanship, their whole thing about going in penitent quests when losing their blades). Just based on their description and if we went with the idea that they are not Um-successors but something hidden would I more go for Emperor's Children then IF, which I don't since I like the idea that beside some gene-curses/failures do your gene-seed origin not affect a chapter's character.

2 hours ago, Boldthreat said:

The III Legion recruited from the Nobles of Europa, a particular region of Terra.

To my understanding did they start there but quickly moved beyound Europa to nobility all ower Terra (which is logical since even if the III:rd  was one of the smaler legions would all the nobility of Europe likley not have enought (and/or constant output of) fit sons for their growing reqruitment pole). But I could be wrong here I admit. 

2 hours ago, Boldthreat said:

The IX Legion seemed to recruit from not just the lost and dispossessed... but the mutated lost and dispossessed in horrific rad zones and poisoned wastelands.  So, there was a specific type here.

Yes but we are talking about "an identity based on whatever region or culture of Terra they came from" here, and different regions outcasts and losts have different cultures.

2 hours ago, Boldthreat said:

The XII Legion seemed to recruit from everyone but screened for that they sought out the most aggressive of persons.

Yes, just like the IF recruited them with most physical and mental fortitude (to be able to go through their problematic transhumanisation process),  but we are talking about "an identity based on whatever region or culture of Terra they came from" here.

2 hours ago, Boldthreat said:

The XIII Legion recruited from a wide pool across Terra as well... but specifically it seems to regions that were bitterly resistant to Unification.  And Specifically orphaned people from these regions.  So, there is a link here.

Yes but we are talking about "an identity based on whatever region or culture of Terra they came from" here.

3 hours ago, Boldthreat said:

I was so bummed out that the first chapter to turn renegade post the Horus Heresy was from the Imperial Fists. 

That we know of... 

And even that was covered up by =][=, who says that they have not covered up other stuff...

3 hours ago, Boldthreat said:

I think the Sons of the Phoenix are III Legion successors, and because I believe that (and I readily admit it's because of the perceived visual cues of the colors and name alone... IE my own bias)

And here is my problem with many of this kind of discussions. Colour, symbol or name do not make a chapter (even if it sometime do, but there are many chapters whose culture or character have nothing with their name or colours to do) and the Sons of the Phoenix are in the small sections of lore we got on them described as not EC like at all, they are more like the World Bearers if we go traitors or the Black Templars if we do not, with their religiosity, use of relics. crusading, and being followed by Adeptus Ministorum Priests and pilgrims.

 

 

[Gamiel]

On 7/2/2022 at 11:13 PM, Gamiel said:

Based on that the Ultima founding Soul Drinkers we see do mention that they have an overactive omophagea organ is it likely that they were created using the gene-seed that the original SD deposited to Terra. 

Correction: I had missremembered it, it's only one of the SD that is mentioned to have an overactive omophagea organ, and the story treat it as something that's unusual but still common among Space Marines overall.