Scout progression post primaris

[Valkyrion]

How does it work now?

Scout > Firstborn > Primaris - you first need to be a bonafide normal marine, then get the upgrade?

Scout > Firstborn or Primaris - your role is chosen for you?

Scout > Primaris - in a chapter that can make Primaris, why would they ever make firstborn again?

 

 

 

 

[UnkyHamHam]

Scout > Primaris - in a chapter that can make Primaris, why would they ever make firstborn again?

Because apparently they are too tall/wide to use all their rhinos, raiders, and pods.

[Casual Heresy]

There was a piece of background that said some chapters were still making firstborn because of the wealth of equipment designed to fit them they have lying around.

 

As for progression, I think it's established now that most new recruits are primaris from the beginning. Like firstborn they serve as scouts until they complete their training and earn the black carapace. I'm not sure if they then serve in the Vanguard squads of the 10th before progressing to 9th company and onwards, or go straight to 9th company as firstborn do?

[Codex Grey]

How does it work now?

Scout > Firstborn > Primaris - you first need to be a bonafide normal marine, then get the upgrade?

Scout > Firstborn or Primaris - your role is chosen for you?

Scout > Primaris - in a chapter that can make Primaris, why would they ever make firstborn again?

Depending on the Chapter, all of these methods could be used for various reasons, some of which are already mentioned by others.

However, on the first point, you technically don't need to be firstborn before Primaris, you can go straight to Primaris. Then again, some Chapters might actually make this a part of their Chapter rituals, letting only the worthy try to cross the Rubicon or something like that.

I'm not sure if they then serve in the Vanguard squads of the 10th before progressing to 9th company and onwards, or go straight to 9th company as firstborn do?

Again, it depends on the Chapter, but I think the general Codex progression would be how it's described in the 9th edition Codex. The Vanguard squads in the 10th Company might be a combination of newly promoted scouts waiting for a spot to become available in the 9th and veteran battle-brothers who specialize in infiltration and can pass this expertise onto the younger marines.

Here's a graph I made but never posted, which is how I envision the general Codex progression through the Chapter.

Exceptions would include specialists like Techmarines, Librarians, etc. However, I could see Chapter Command transferring brothers with more experience "back" to "younger" Companies to fill in gaps or for some other reason.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Codex Grey

[Captain Idaho]

The old (new) fluff talked about the progression going from Devastator to Assault to Tactical in a Chapter, which never really made sense with the Reserve Companies being lower in the hierarchy than Battle Companies. In the latest fluff with the term Batteline being thrown about and any role being shifted between engagements as per needs, I'm not sure these old hierarchical rules can be made to work at all.

 

I guess it's cleaner with regards to the supremacy of some Companies over others, if the units themselves are not considered higher than others.

 

GW haven't really discussed or explained recruitment of Firstborn have they? I mean, it doesn't make sense to create weaker troops and GW aren't going to tell us Primaris have a drawback for sales purposes anyway.

 

So I would make a presumption that there are no Firstborn if you're following the fluff. (Headcanon notwistanding)

 

Does anyone know of any recent fluff that confirms recruitment or provide any examples?

Edited May 26, 2022 by Captain Idaho

[Orange Knight]

I think Scouts can be Primaris, we just don't have the models for them.

 

An example does exist, we see the equivalent of Primaris Scouts in the Black Templar crusade squad. I imagine that a kit will eventually be released.

 

Apparently, a Marine begins the Primaris process early on, and you can be a "Primaris in the making" during the Scout phase as some of the additional organs are the 1st to be applied.

 

 

As for the codex progression, this hasn't been described in great details when Primaris were introduced, to the best of my knowledge (I could be wrong). I think the way Marines worked their way up through the ranks traditionally in the lore is very interesting, but has the pitfall of being too restrictive in terms of the freedom to change, update or refine the lore. GW simply went into too much detail in the past, and now people are frustrated with a lack of clear answers when talking about the Primaris.

 

An equally plausible progression within a chapter is having the Scout recruit be assessed during their training, and then placed into a company and role that fits them best based on the aptitude they showed. From there, the Marine can change their role should they desire to do so and can prove themselves.

 

I also think that it makes very little sense for a chapter to still train "Firstborn" Marines (The term Firstborn is tossed around so much these days that I've started to find it obnoxious, personally). This is what I consider to be bad lore - All Astartes, from the Imperial Fists to the Space Wolves, have a proud Warrior culture, and no "Proud Warrior" will be happy about being made as an objectively inferior version compared to some of his brothers. Primaris are more durable, stronger and more stable, and their weapons and armaments are superior and readily available, as they have been manufactured in plentiful quantities. They have made this very clear in the lore.

 

Looking back on 40k, the lore detail is both a strength and a curse. It allows us to get invested in things, but it also restricts change and leads to frustration until all the kinks have been worked out. GW seems to be moving the lore forward in a way that is both frustratingly fast, and painfully slow at the same time.

[Kallas]

I also think that it makes very little sense for a chapter to still train "Firstborn" Marines (The term Firstborn is tossed around so much these days that I've started to find it obnoxious, personally). This is what I consider to be bad lore - All Astartes, from the Imperial Fists to the Space Wolves, have a proud Warrior culture, and no "Proud Warrior" will be happy about being made as an objectively inferior version compared to some of his brothers. Primaris are more durable, stronger and more stable, and their weapons and armaments are superior and readily available, as they have been manufactured in plentiful quantities. They have made this very clear in the lore.

 

This is pretty much a perfect summation of why the whole Primaris thing frustrates some folks, especially the last two sentences. It's literally just, "New guys are better in every way, because 'Because' "

[Orange Knight]

@Kallas

 

I completely understand this view as well, and I empathise. Unfortunately, the same can be said in reverse when people assign a title like "firstborn" to the old Marines. That title carries an air of superiority, but that superiority isn't justified in the greater lore.

 

I think that any case for the "Classic" Astartes was ultimately lost when GW started to upgrade the classic heroes into improved Primaris versions. Calgar (the most famous Marine to transition) only became stronger when he crossed the Rubicon, and there were no drawbacks. Eventually I imagine that all the classic heroes will see an update.

 

Moving back to Scouts, I feel that GW needs to address the issue sooner rather than later. Now that we have seen Black Templar Primaris Neophytes, they should provide a generic kit that can be used by all chapters, and they should also update how the role progression functions in the next codex.

 

The role progression in particular is something that needs to be looked at. In the past, a Tactical marine worked his way up through the various companies, but the same does not appear to be true for an Intercessor. The whole dynamic of how the units functions is quite different as a whole as the Primaris are specialists in their assigned role, and not generalists. Less weapon variety in each unit, but greater focus and redundancy for getting the particular job done.

 

This makes me think that a Primaris Scout can be assigned to be an Intercessor when their training is complete. If I've missed an explanation somewhere, please make me aware.

 

Edit:

 

One last point: The old progression was both interesting, but also silly if scrutinised. Why would you spend time and effort on training a Marine in the use of a Jump Pack or Bike (highly specialised wargear that takes a lot of practice to perfect) and then when he reaches the zenith of aptitude, you strip him of the wargear, give him a bolter and assign him to a unit that performs an entirely different function? A Tactical Marine will never use a jump pack again, for example.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Orange Knight

[Kallas]

@Kallas

 

I completely understand this view as well, and I empathise. Unfortunately, the same can be said in reverse when people assign a title like "firstborn" to the old Marines. That title carries an air of superiority, but that superiority isn't justified in the greater lore.

 

Uh, isn't Firstborn the term that GW used in their novels?? I thought it originated from the early novels around the initial Primaris release (I forget the name, was it Indomitus? There were novels released about that and I think Firstborn was a term used by Primaris to refer to 'old Marines.'

[Captain Idaho]

It was adopted and spread by the community and then Warhammer Community made it mainstream. I believe AD-B mentioned it first in a novel but can't rightly remember?

 

It's just easier to say Firstborn because everyone knows clearly what you're saying as opposed to Classic Marines potentially being taken as older versions of models, Marines who might behave in clichéd ways as Marines or even those from ages past.

 

Having something known as Firstborn from AD-B's perspective was just a mark of respect for the twilight Marines soon to be extinct, taking it as derogatory to your favourite version (Primaris) is probably going too far with tribalism really.

 

Suffice to say though, I think we're in agreement so far there seems little fluff justification with the corner GW wrote themselves in on Primaris superiority, that any Firstborn Marines are created.

 

It does also create problems with comparison to Chaos Marines as well, but that's going off topic.

[Karhedron]

There was a piece of background that said some chapters were still making firstborn because of the wealth of equipment designed to fit them they have lying around.

Also most Chapters regard geneseed with a reverence that borders on holy. It is a living link to their Primarch and thence to the Emperor. I don't think they are going to chuck their Firstborn geneseed in the trash just because some Martian dude says he has a new and improved version.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Karhedron

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

The 8.2 codex did go into detail on progression for Primaris "neophytes" at least in the Ultramarines. They do indeed still progress through the reserve companies after spending time in 10th. In the exemplar's case, he went to 9th, then 8th, then becoming an Intercessor in the battleline reserve companies before ultimately joining a battle company.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Lord Nord

[Orange Knight]

 

There was a piece of background that said some chapters were still making firstborn because of the wealth of equipment designed to fit them they have lying around.

Also most Chapters regard geneseed with a reverence that borders on holy. It is a living link to their Primarch and thence to the Emperor. I don't think they are going to chuck their Firstborn geneseed in the trash just because some Martian dude says he has a new and improved version.

The Archmagos Cawl had the highest authority to work directly with the most pure reserves of Geneseed from each of the Primarchs, held on Terra.

 

In the official lore it describes the Primaris as being more closely connected to their Primarchs.

 

The geneseed itself isn't what changed. The process of creating the Marines was updated, and the Primaris had access to more pure, less degraded and less corrupted geneseed.

[Marshal Reinhard]

I just want a new scout kit. Call them what you want, as long as they're visually consistent with the BT neophytes

Edited May 26, 2022 by Reinhard

[Captain Idaho]

That doesn't mean the Chapters themselves are going to hold Cawl in high esteem. Authority doesn't equate to trust or respect in the 41st millennium.

 

It's a good point I never considered actually - geneseed stores are still valuable and the difference between Marines is marginal in the background when comparing effectiveness. After all, an 8ft Marine crushing the skull of Tau is the same as a 9ft Marine crushing the skull of a Tau.

 

Maybe I can concede that there are still Firstborn being created, on that basis. Still, I imagine it would create division amongst the Brethren and would be a little awkward.

[Gamiel]

 

There was a piece of background that said some chapters were still making firstborn because of the wealth of equipment designed to fit them they have lying around.

Also most Chapters regard geneseed with a reverence that borders on holy. It is a living link to their Primarch and thence to the Emperor. I don't think they are going to chuck their Firstborn geneseed in the trash just because some Martian dude says he has a new and improved version.

To my understanding do they use Firstborn genseed as part of the creation of primaris, it's not like they get compleatly new gene-seed just some ad ones to the old ones, they are still reusing all the old stuff. 

[Felix Antipodes]

A lot of the progression routines and specialties of the Primaris are actually the product of Cawl’s training cadre - Guilliman was still in stasis for most of their creation and training.  Guilliman may have left these organisations in place for the unnumbered sons while he worked on his codex update but they will certainly clash with some of the more traditional Chapters.  They may switch to all Primaris for new neophytes or make a combination of Firstborn/Primaris as their needs require, but may retain their traditional internal structure.

[Karhedron]

The Archmagos Cawl had the highest authority to work directly with the most pure reserves of Geneseed from each of the Primarchs, held on Terra.

 

In the official lore it describes the Primaris as being more closely connected to their Primarchs.

 

The geneseed itself isn't what changed. The process of creating the Marines was updated, and the Primaris had access to more pure, less degraded and less corrupted geneseed.

While we know that to be true, many Chapters are insular, secretive and distrustful of outsiders. Guilliman's orders, backed up by the presence of the Custodians is largely why most Chapters have accepted Primaris reinforcements.

 

We may know the Geneseed from Cawl is better (although the appearance of Primaris Death Company suggests it might be not be as good as advertised) but the Chapters receiving it may be doing so under duress. Many of the them probably regard their own geneseed as being the authentic article, whatever Cawl may claim.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Karhedron

[Blindhamster]

Firstborn are also still created because not all chapters have abundant access to primaris gene seed, also some chapters have had to do such extensive rebuilding (blood angels and almost all their successors for example) that to get numbers up elevating both kinds based on rules as simple as “candidates which were such good matches for the firstborn geneseed that their successful implantation is particularly likely get firstborn where those with higher margin for error get primaris due to its better ability to take effect even with the candidate having issues”.

 

There’s literally an example of that in devastation of Baal with a character who suffered a head injury during original trials that meant they were no longer deemed viable is given a second chance as primaris as the seed can overcome the injury itself.. cool character that we see again in darkness in the blood as a newly elevated incursor

 

 

Also, cawl never said he fixed things he deemed to have been put in place by the emperor, he did not fix the red thirst as he felt it was intentional, the black rage is never mentioned but it wouldn’t surprise me it was hat ever causes that to manifest is directly related to whatever he found that caused the thirst. Dante you as just having hope they might have the key to a cure because a core theme or the blood angels is hope (always loved that the deathwatch RPG blood angel unique oath was called the oath of hope)

Edited May 26, 2022 by Blindhamster

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Firstborn are also still created because not all chapters have abundant access to primaris gene seed, also some chapters have had to do such extensive rebuilding (blood angels and almost all their successors for example) that to get numbers up elevating both kinds based on rules as simple as “candidates which were such good matches for the firstborn geneseed that their successful implantation is particularly likely get firstborn where those with higher margin for error get primaris due to its better ability to take effect even with the candidate having issues”.

 

There’s literally an example of that in devastation of Baal with a character who suffered a head injury during original trials that meant they were no longer deemed viable is given a second chance as primaris as the seed can overcome the injury itself.. cool character that we see again in darkness in the blood as a newly elevated incursor

 

That isn't what happened, though. The Apothecary who examined him at the end of Devastation said the damage was reparable and that he was accepted to become an Angel. Nothing about reparable due to the recent arrival of Primaris geneseed. He wasn't rejected because the geneseed they had onhand couldn't have repaired the injury. He was rejected because of the injury itself and because they already had sufficient aspirants.

 

‘He has minor brain damage. I am not surprised he was rejected. We take so few, any flaw is enough to eliminate them from the process.’

[Blindhamster]

Sorry, I remembered things a little differently from the full context of the scene and the things we had learned earlier in the book about the character. I took the bit at the end to specifically be a second chance because he was a good candidate with the primaris seed where even that injury was enough to make him no longer a good fit previously.

 

But I guess if that’s not the case, no point making firstborn for any chapter with enough primaris geneseed to cover all aspirants. (There’s no lore reason based on equipment as we have examples of them using drop pods, land raiders etc)

[phandaal]

Sorry, I remembered things a little differently from the full context of the scene and the things we had learned earlier in the book about the character. I took the bit at the end to specifically be a second chance because he was a good candidate with the primaris seed where even that injury was enough to make him no longer a good fit previously.

 

But I guess if that’s not the case, no point making firstborn for any chapter with enough primaris geneseed to cover all aspirants. (There’s no lore reason based on equipment as we have examples of them using drop pods, land raiders etc)

 

The Apothecary in that scene was saying the Blood Angels could fix Teus's brain damage and then take him as a recruit. Thanks to the Tyranids, the Blood Angels could no longer be as picky as they had been when they rejected Teus for injuring his head during trials, so the extra effort was justified. Teus earned another shot by surviving the battle with Leviathan.

[Urkh]

I want to see Andrej from helsreach become a templar neophyte.