The Legion For You: Part Three, Heresy Harder!

[jaxom]

The Legion For You: Part Three, Heresy Harder!

 

With the advent of Horus Heresy 2.0, and some of the "which legion should you play?" that have floated up in other threads, I figured a this may be a good time for this sort of thing as the legions have new rules, there are new plastic kits to consider, etc.

 

Community/Historical Caveat

The original HH used the same rules as 40k. The attraction was the setting, narrative opportunities, and hobby opportunities. The community (and I am painting with a broad brush, being very general) has tended to valuing armies which focus on those three pillars over raw power. People asking about which legion is the "most powerful" or has "the best rules" tends to be met with concern, raised eyebrows, etc. In general, playing into a legion's strengths will result a list that can go head-to-head.

 

Approaching Your Pick - The Three R's

• Rule - You tend to get grabbed by a particular rule or set of rule interactions.
• Role - You like armies that lean into a certain role, be it tanks, melee, or shooting, and pick based on that. 
• Robby, I mean Hobby - You get attracted to a paint scheme, the way a model looks, or an modeling opportunity.

At this point, I'm going to quote the OG:

 

 

So, how can you help keep the discussion focused?

 

Well, I'm glad you asked!  Here's a few pointers (these are by no means absolutes):

• Avoid stating "Why play Legion/Army X/Y/Z?! They Suck!" or something to that effect. It doesnt really help anyone (which is the point of the topic) nor does the person you're saying that really care about said opinion since he wants to play said Legions/Army anyways.
• Highlight what makes Playing/Painting/Collecting said Legions/Armies fun, what limitations one can reasonably expect, etc.
• Try to keep talk about the minutiae of how Legions Play/Operate/Work within the rules to their Dedicated Tactica Threads.

I'm not saying you can't list pro's and con's to any given choices; with how expensive all this is, it'd be pretty disingenuous to not give people as much information as possible before making their choices.

 

In the end, we're here to help people choose a Legion. We're not here to put anyone down for their choices or go on a rant as to why Legion X with unit Y is better than Legion A with unit B due to a rules interaction that results in a 33.333 (repeating of course) increase in effectiveness. The former is an unwelcome attitude and the latter is better kept to the Tactica threads as stated above.

 

And, of course, I'll try to keep this comment up-to-date as we begin to generate HH2.0 content.

Edited May 27, 2022 by Slips
Pin'd and removed repeat quote

[nusphigor]

Well i'd like to go ahead and start this if i may.
I used to play alpha legion, imperial fists and word bearers in HH but i kinda want to do something new using what i already have.

I was leaning towards sons of horus, emperor's children or iron hands but i don't know how would my army benefit from those legions, because i usually play shooty and with heavy weapons squads.

These are what i have:
- Praetor with paragon blade
- centurion with power fist
- Librarian
- 3 10 man tactical squads
- 3 rhinos

- 2 5 man heavy support squads with lascannons

- 2 rapiers with quad launchers

- 3 contemptors, 1 with double fists, 1 with double lascannons and one with double kheres

 

 

i was thinking of buying some cataphractii or a kratos later on.
Any idea which kind of legion would be best for my army?

Edited May 30, 2022 by nusphigor

[Cyrox]

Excellent!

 

I've always been into the setting and hobby side of the Horus Heresy rather than the rules, so that has always been my driver. With HH 1.0 I was interested in creating a Great Crusade era force of one of the traitor legions during their 'good' times, but now with HH 2.0 and the era being more towards the siege of terra, I've gone all loyalists.

 

I've decided to collect Salamanders - it was between DA and Sallies but the XVIIIth won me over.

 

I've seen some of the rules, and while its never been what dictates choosing an army for me (in any game), I'd appreciate any advice on how Salamanders play on the tabletop.

[Sorot Saepirot]

SO, here's where I'm at right now.  I want to start World Eaters for 30k (I also play them in 40k).  I want to try and stay away from named characters (I'll use the Praetor with the big ol' axe as my Assault Captain.  But - I have no idea how to expand out of the box.  I also don't necessarily know if I want to run down the amounts of axes I'd need to convert a squad into an assault squad, though I do want to turn one of the squads into a ten man heavy bolter/ autocannon squad.  

 

I know nothing, please help me out.

[bushman101]

Once you have picked your Legion, choose a Rite of War. These will give you guide lines on how to build your army.

Some Rites are Legion specific but there are generic ones as well.

Find one you like and see if it requires or forbids things. From there, you can really nail down what you need

[Slips]

Working within a set of restrictions is much easier than picking and choosing from all available options.

[GenerationTerrorist]

So I am struggling which way to go. Badly.

I'll be using the whole box to create a single army - Probably adding another Contemptor, ASAP.

 

First caveat is, sadly for The Emperor, Loyalist legions would need an exceptional reason for me to pick them. This is because I'd want to be able to use this army in 40k gaming as well from time to time, and am only really interested in Primaris stuff going forward for any Loyalist projects. Mostly for future-proof reasons.

 

An additional caveat is that I would want a Legion where it wouldn't require tons of conversion work to be "realistic" for use in 40k as well. My conversion and painting skills are very below average, so preferably a Legion that hasn't changed much about their original colour scheme or already has a 40k Legion-Specific Codex and models. I guess that would count out World Eaters, Sons of Horus, Thousand Sons and Death Guard?

 

In terms of play style, I want a big squad(s) of Terminators as the mainstay of the army, and would buy Forgeworld for the right Terminator models that would work within the above caveats. Therefore, toughness over speed. Brutal in close range firefights, but not reliant on the Shooting phase to get 80% of stuff done.

 

I think I have narrowed it down in my head to three Legions, but unsure which way to go. Would be great to see if others could inspire my choice without me listing those three Legions, or give me something completely left-field that I hadn't considered.

 

Final caveat - Winning or losing does not bother me, so long as I can have fun with a fluffy/themed army that won't bore me or my opponent to tears.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Word Bearers or Iron Warriors really sound to me most like where you might go, maybe Alpha Legion, but the first too probably more so. Night Lords may be a bit much with their lightning bolts and flayed skin, and I think Emperor's Children won't look right in their much cleaner 30k look for similar reasons to Death Guard or World Eaters.

[GenerationTerrorist]

Word Bearers or Iron Warriors really sound to me most like where you might go, maybe Alpha Legion, but the first too probably more so. Night Lords may be a bit much with their lightning bolts and flayed skin, and I think Emperor's Children won't look right in their much cleaner 30k look for similar reasons to Death Guard or World Eaters.

Thanks, man. My three ideas were Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion and Night Lords.

 

Word Bearers are actually a really great shout, as well. Lorgar is my favourite Traitor Primarch, with his brilliant background and tragic reasons for Heresy. Closely followed by Perturabo.

 

I'm going to do a bit more thinking, but I have narrowed it down to two choices.

[jaxom]

Well i'd like to go ahead and start this if i may.

I used to play alpha legion, imperial fists and word bearers in HH but i kinda want to do something new using what i already have.

 

Hidden Content

I was leaning towards sons of horus, emperor's children or iron hands but i don't know how would my army benefit from those legions, because i usually play shooty and with heavy weapons squads.

 

These are what i have:

- Praetor with paragon blade

- centurion with power fist

- Librarian

- 3 10 man tactical squads

- 3 rhinos

- 2 5 man heavy support squads with lascannons

- 2 rapiers with quad launchers

- 3 contemptors, 1 with double fists, 1 with double lascannons and one with double kheres

 

 

i was thinking of buying some cataphractii or a kratos later on.

Any idea which kind of legion would be best for my army?

 

Iron Hands have durability that will work well in pretty much any force. The Sons of Horus and Emperor's Children would benefit from an armoured cavalry, shock assault style of play, supported by the dreadnoughts. You have a rhino for each tactical squad so that's definitely an option, rather than playing them as a gun line with.counter-assault potential The heavy support squads and rapiers provide a stationary firebase.

 

Excellent!

 

I've always been into the setting and hobby side of the Horus Heresy rather than the rules, so that has always been my driver. With HH 1.0 I was interested in creating a Great Crusade era force of one of the traitor legions during their 'good' times, but now with HH 2.0 and the era being more towards the siege of terra, I've gone all loyalists.

 

I've decided to collect Salamanders - it was between DA and Sallies but the XVIIIth won me over.

 

I've seen some of the rules, and while its never been what dictates choosing an army for me (in any game), I'd appreciate any advice on how Salamanders play on the tabletop.

 

Salamanders are one of the legions where their default special rules don't have a large impact on how they can play. Generally, you'll find they are a mid-to-close range shooting army with counter-assault potential. They have better flamers, due to the larger die size for Wall of Death so support squads with flamers. As you are more into the hobby side, then I recommend taking a look at which of the special units you would like to build/paint. Once you have an idea of them, take a look at the Rites of War and which would work best with them. 

 

SO, here's where I'm at right now.  I want to start World Eaters for 30k (I also play them in 40k).  I want to try and stay away from named characters (I'll use the Praetor with the big ol' axe as my Assault Captain.  But - I have no idea how to expand out of the box.  I also don't necessarily know if I want to run down the amounts of axes I'd need to convert a squad into an assault squad, though I do want to turn one of the squads into a ten man heavy bolter/ autocannon squad.  

 

I know nothing, please help me out.

 

Starting with the box is a great idea. Unless you plan on blitzing through it, by the time you have done most of the units, there should be more info on bits-kits. I would be surprised if there isn't a close combat box planned (to parallel the support and heavy boxes) or an updated set of WE items. Getting a few smaller games under your belt with just the box units will also give you an idea of what sort of strengths your want to reinforce, weaknesses you my want to cover, or units you enjoy using. 

 

Once you have picked your Legion, choose a Rite of War. These will give you guide lines on how to build your army.

Some Rites are Legion specific but there are generic ones as well.

Find one you like and see if it requires or forbids things. From there, you can really nail down what you need

 

And vice-versa. If there is a unit or units that you really like you can then pick a Legion or Rite of War that works well with them. Every Legion can do everything, but leaning into their strengths does just that while it takes more effort to get the most out of, say, a World Eaters list with a lot of heavy weapon squads and not as many straight-up close combat units.

 

So I am struggling which way to go. Badly.

I'll be using the whole box to create a single army - Probably adding another Contemptor, ASAP.

 

*SNIP*

 

so preferably a Legion that hasn't changed much about their original colour scheme or already has a 40k Legion-Specific Codex and models. I guess that would count out World Eaters, Sons of Horus, Thousand Sons and Death Guard?

 

In terms of play style, I want a big squad(s) of Terminators as the mainstay of the army, and would buy Forgeworld for the right Terminator models that would work within the above caveats. Therefore, toughness over speed. Brutal in close range firefights, but not reliant on the Shooting phase to get 80% of stuff done.

 

I think I have narrowed it down in my head to three Legions, but unsure which way to go. Would be great to see if others could inspire my choice without me listing those three Legions, or give me something completely left-field that I hadn't considered.

 

Final caveat - Winning or losing does not bother me, so long as I can have fun with a fluffy/themed army that won't bore me or my opponent to tears.

 

Splinter factions in the 41st millenium could still be using the original Legion colors (for example, white base for World Eaters is very popular at the Bolter & Chainsword, and canonically  the Wolves of Horus and Trues Sons are both Sons of Horus warbands who cleave to the glory days under Horus). The Death Guard, I think, are the most problematic because they are the most outward-appearance different than they were for most of the Heresy.

 

Play style, I think:

 

Emperor's Children - Not quite as durable, but a little faster. Their special units tend to be where it's at with them when it comes to terminators so not the best fit if you are starting with the box set and like Cataphractii.

 

Iron Warriors - Shrapnel rounds to pin units and then charging in, a single squad of Iron Tyrants (just slap some cyclone missile launchers on a plastic Cataphractii squads's backs) backing up a blob of Cataphractii, very doable. The 40 tactical marines in the box with a single heavy weapon upgrade box can do a lot of work against enemy vehicles. I think their unique RoW aren't the best fit, but taking the Pride of the Legion RoW would work well. They have some interesting warlord traits that improve close combat.

 

Night Lords - Two twenty man tactical squads to help outnumber your enemies and sit on objectives in your deployment zone. Deep striking in all the Terminators could be interesting.

 

World Eaters - Chain bayonets on as many tactical marines as possible. Terminators could do of work, but are going to be more offensive and less defensive.

 

Thousand Sons - Just don't give any non-characters a bare head  and you're fine for 40k. The psychic powers can add a layer of protection to your Terminators and an interesting level of versatility to the tactical squads.

 

Sons of Horus - They work really well with Terminators and their legion rule increases their durability in close combat. Justaerin terminators are rather gnarly.

 

Word Bearers - I just don't like them for anything other than psychic and daemon shenanigans.

[GenerationTerrorist]

Thanks Jaxom. Much appreciated suggestions. As it is a long weekend here in the UK, I am going to do some test schemes on a few easy-to-build Intercessors/Reivers (yes, I know!) I have lying around and see which I like the most.

 

I'm edging towards Iron Warriors at the moment, but painting the hazard stripes are something terrifying to me and my shaky hand - Cricket injury to my thumb a few years ago that makes my painting hand go numb quite quickly.

After that, it is a very even three-way split between Word Bearers, Night Lords and Alpha Legion in probably that order of preference.

 

I'm going to watch some painting videos for the schemes on Youtube and also check out as many Battle Reports as possible that Channels post on pre-order day.

[jaxom]

In my IW paint test I found painting an area yellow with two big black stripes did the trick.

[General Strike]

Ive already chosen my legion, Space Wolves. How much should I invest into rhinos? Im coming from a more bodies mentality, I was thinking of just getting rhinos to deliver my support squads.

[Mike8404]

I'm totally new to playing the HH, but I've been stalking about forums and Facebook pages for years.  

I'm thinking about starting a Night Lord's army first, preferably the Terror Assault ROW.  Then a World Eaters army.  However, I've been told Terror Squads don't have "Line", so what do you recommend for a good Terror list?  I'm thinking about using a Kratos instead of a Levi and Rhinos instead of Drop Pods, but I don't know where to go from there

[jaxom]

Caveat: not a Night Lord player. I think two big Tactical Squads with prey sight for the compulsory troop choices would work well as they'll outdistance most other units due to Night Fighting, and they would probably outnumber most units (for getting the Legion special rule into effect). Meanwhile the Terror Squads isolate and whittle down the enemy.

[Doghouse]

I'm a second ed 40k Iron Warriors player but I've decided to flip over to something that is outside of my comfort zone and settled for Word Bearers. 

I've also looked at Death Guard mainly because I love the trench warfare feel of them and their ability to move and shoot with heavy weapons is really nice making them a fairly mobile army to play. 

Normally I am an Astartes purist but I really like the idea of including Ruinstorm units purely for lore reasons or maybe even militia as it really appeals to me.

So large corrupted chain blade wielding twenty man tac squads is the way forward for me but I'm not sure on the Praetor weapons just yet as I want to play it safe and have the majority of options be able to transfer over to 40k continuing their legacy into the future.

 

[nusphigor]

Well in then end i went on to convert my dark angels minis and add them to this idea XD
So now i have a huge dark angels legion force that im trying to sort out if i should use them as multi wing or just stick to one wing.

On 6/1/2022 at 10:00 AM, jaxom said:

Iron Hands have durability that will work well in pretty much any force. The Sons of Horus and Emperor's Children would benefit from an armoured cavalry, shock assault style of play, supported by the dreadnoughts. You have a rhino for each tactical squad so that's definitely an option, rather than playing them as a gun line with.counter-assault potential The heavy support squads and rapiers provide a stationary firebase.

Edited July 9, 2022 by nusphigor

[khsndkthrss]

So, finally the Age of Darkness caught me again in the web of heresy and wargaming.
 

Currently i am fixed on Sons of Horus - really need to shove some Justaerin into my opponents models :)

Brewed a bit and decided for a Blood Angel allied detachment with day of revelation - but that kinda got out of hand and when for a 2000 point list, nearly a 1000 points went into the allied detachment. Guess I wanted to take ALL the elite jump pack units

I want deepstrike and melee - so i am torn between Abaddon with Justaerin Squads and the Black reaving/drop pod assault or a Blood Angels Day of Revelation force.

BA is a more secure deep striking but also predictable - drop pod assault or normal deepstriking sounds quite risky

could also not take Abaddon as a warlord, no named characters in general and take a apothecary in the unit, only 5+ FnP but all the time and take that as allies...or go big with SoH Drop Pod Assault + Day of Revelation - Turn 1 Pods, Turn 2 Angels....looks like in the end i will have two armies :S

any thoughts on Droppod Assault VS Day of Revelation?

[Xenith]

I was undecided between BA, AL and IW for a long time, but I fugured I had to pull the trigger at some point, painted up some AL, and am really loving the scheme and playing games with them. They're not the most powerfuly, but have some sneaky tricks, the contrast over metals scheme is super fast, and I'm enjoying myself.

I'm working the BA into the theme though, so will feature multipurpose Rewards troops like Tears and Dawnbreakers, as if the Alphas are properly impersonating their way of warfare. I might work some BA in as allies for Mobius Config trait. 

[SlickSamos]

Help!  As a middle aged man getting back into the hobby a lot has changed...  (last miniature painted 5 yrs ago, last time seriously involved in the hobby was 6th Ed. 40k - so about 10 years ago...)

The reason for HH is that Primaris Marines now exist.  Whilst they are cool and are actually to scale, collecting *another* SM force seem a bit redundant given that I have almost enough old school grey men to build a whole 40k company of marines with 1st company and 10th company support...  So HH seems like the correct choice to me as for where I should be focusing my attention.  To that end I've watched essay videos about each legion and read articles about their various strengths and weaknesses and have eliminated a number of legions.  

Going down the three R's:

• Rule - Don't really care about the rules as - I'll probably only play a few games over the next 10 years due to disability / availability 
• Role -  Speed!!  Give me Jump Packs, Bikes and Tanks.  Oh and Teleporting Terminators too ("ha, unlikely" - the 30k rules writers)  
• Robby - Current schemes used on some miniatures:
  • Purple with 'winged sword' (Ravenwing) shoulder pads;
  • Green or white with 'slashes' iconography (old White Scars/Salamanders project where the successor chapter actually used camo); and,
  • 40k Dark Angels colour scheme (Dark Vengeance models)

Likely choices appear to be:

• I - have most models correctly built for this legion, list malleable enough to being focused on speed - no deep striking terminators :(
• III - speedy legion w/ outflanking tartarous terminators (close enough to deep striking I think?)
• V - speediest legion! - no deep striking terminators :(
• VI - not the fastest but have really good infantry which doesn't need to be mechanised to get close & personal but are also good when mechanise
• VIII - sneaky legion, infantry doesn't need to be mechanised to get close & personal, customisable 'vanguard veteran' type squad
• IX - speedy legion with best models and many fast (and good looking) cc type units - no deep striking terminators :( - they have one squad of deep striking terminators 
• XVI - not the fastest but have customisable 'vanguard veteran' type squad, one squad of deep striking terminators
• XIX - sneaky legion, infantry doesn't need to be mechanised to get close & personal, one squad of deep striking terminators

So you know, half of them because I'm sure Alpha Legion could also work as they are sneaky marines & with rewards of treason to fill any gaps in their list...  

Thank you for being a willing (or unwilling) sound board!

Slick Samos

Edited October 2, 2022 by SlickSamos
Struck through some of the original text rather than double posting

[jaxom]

On 9/12/2022 at 7:47 AM, Xenith said:

I was undecided between BA, AL and IW for a long time, but I fugured I had to pull the trigger at some point, painted up some AL, and am really loving the scheme and playing games with them. They're not the most powerfuly, but have some sneaky tricks, the contrast over metals scheme is super fast, and I'm enjoying myself.

I'm working the BA into the theme though, so will feature multipurpose Rewards troops like Tears and Dawnbreakers, as if the Alphas are properly impersonating their way of warfare. I might work some BA in as allies for Mobius Config trait. 

Sounds rad! Blood Angels in Mobius Configuration can be a lot of fun and throw a monkey wrench into your opponent's plans. They go well with a super-aggressive movement foward.

On 10/1/2022 at 10:19 AM, SlickSamos said:

Help!  As a middle aged man getting back into the hobby a lot has changed...  (last miniature painted 5 yrs ago, last time seriously involved in the hobby was 6th Ed. 40k - so about 10 years ago...)

The reason for HH is that Primaris Marines now exist.  Whilst they are cool and are actually to scale, collecting *another* SM force seem a bit redundant given that I have almost enough old school grey men to build a whole 40k company of marines with 1st company and 10th company support...  So HH seems like the correct choice to me as for where I should be focusing my attention.  To that end I've watched essay videos about each legion and read articles about their various strengths and weaknesses and have eliminated a number of legions.  

Going down the three R's:

• Rule - Don't really care about the rules as - I'll probably only play a few games over the next 10 years due to disability / availability 
• Role -  Speed!!  Give me Jump Packs, Bikes and Tanks.  Oh and Teleporting Terminators too ("ha, unlikely" - the 30k rules writers)  
• Robby - Current schemes used on some miniatures:
  • Purple with 'winged sword' (Ravenwing) shoulder pads;
  • Green or white with 'slashes' iconography (old White Scars/Salamanders project where the successor chapter actually used camo); and,
  • 40k Dark Angels colour scheme (Dark Vengeance models)

Likely choices appear to be:

• I - have most models correctly built for this legion, list malleable enough to being focused on speed - no deep striking terminators :(
• III - speedy legion w/ outflanking tartarous terminators (close enough to deep striking I think?)
• V - speediest legion! - no deep striking terminators :(
• VI - not the fastest but have really good infantry which doesn't need to be mechanised to get close & personal but are also good when mechanise
• VIII - sneaky legion, infantry doesn't need to be mechanised to get close & personal, customisable 'vanguard veteran' type squad
• IX - speedy legion with best models and many fast (and good looking) cc type units - no deep striking terminators :( - they have one squad of deep striking terminators 
• XVI - not the fastest but have customisable 'vanguard veteran' type squad, one squad of deep striking terminators
• XIX - sneaky legion, infantry doesn't need to be mechanised to get close & personal, one squad of deep striking terminators

So you know, half of them because I'm sure Alpha Legion could also work as they are sneaky marines & with rewards of treason to fill any gaps in their list...  

Thank you for being a willing (or unwilling) sound board!

Slick Samos

Dark Angels, with a mix of Ravenwing and Ironwing, sound right up your alley. While portrayed with black armor, the lore also state that their various mysterious orders of mystery use mysterious paint schemes to denote which mystery they are in the know about, letting other Dark Angels in the know know that they know. Purple is outside the usual wheel-house for Dark Angel colors, but the white and green sound like they could be just such mysterious color schemes of mysterious orders, up to mysterious means for mysterious ends... mystery....

[SlickSamos]

Thank you Jaxom!

I've just found the Warmonger rules and oh my doesn't that solve the lack of teleporting Deathwing Terminators (link, page 10)!

And what is a Warmonger, but a Paladin of the mysterious Hekatonystika of the even more mysterious Ordo Aetheric?

Again, I think I'm sold!  

Slick Samos

[suxdavide]

Hi all.

 

I'm planning on starting my third legion (even if I should reinforce the two I already own), so I'm here asking for tips.

 

I already own a RG force (close range shots, glass cannons units and a few vehicles), WB (PotL relying on many AV14 vehicles and wishing to go HtH ASAP) so I'd say something that relies on shooting or a mix of shotting and HtH should do the job.

 

As for the available resources:

new heresy box
1 achilles land raider

1 storm eagle

1 rhino

1 leviathan

10 breachers

25 indomitus terminators

 

I'm also trying to fit 10 outriders and 10 jet bikes, but I'm more prone to ally them to either the RG or WB.

 

My first choice was to delve into albia and make a force of DG with many terminators and longs range shots and chemical war crimes, what would you suggest?

My idea was something like:

praetor with X deathsrhoud

Siege breaker

 

2 contemptor (tbd)
6 destroyer with alchemical flamers on achilles (with phosphex if the opponent would love the home rule to bring the achilles to its glory)
3 rapier phosphex

2x 10 tactical with apo on rhino

 

5 grave warden on land raider

 

10 HSS lascannon
1 arquitor
1 deredeo

[jaxom]

Just looking at what you listed as available, I recommend a PotL list because all the Indomitus now become line. The leviathan would be the one heavy support. If you don’t mind painting something black adjacent, Tenth Legion (also Albian originally) would be a good pick.

[suxdavide]

On 10/18/2022 at 5:12 AM, jaxom said:

Just looking at what you listed as available, I recommend a PotL list because all the Indomitus now become line. The leviathan would be the one heavy support. If you don’t mind painting something black adjacent, Tenth Legion (also Albian originally) would be a good pick.

 

I already own a RG force in both 40k and 30k, I'd rather skip the new legion than going for black again but thanks for the tip!

Would indomitus need a vehicle to be effective or could I just let them proceed by feet?