The Legion For You: Part Three, Heresy Harder!

[jaxom]

10 hours ago, suxdavide said:

 

I already own a RG force in both 40k and 30k, I'd rather skip the new legion than going for black again but thanks for the tip!

Would indomitus need a vehicle to be effective or could I just let them proceed by feet?

Not a problem, in fact, the available units would work well as Death Guard! It makes the list a bit more offensive compared to defensive. The biggest reason I originally suggest IH over DG was the Outriders and jetbikes. Those units do not really benefit from being DG. If you do go with the idea of saving them for an allied force, then DG is a great choice.

 

I recommend putting your shortest ranged unit in the Storm Eagle and arming it with anti-tank weapons. Alternatively, leave it empty and use it purely to hunt-tanks. It will be a high priority target, so a unit may be in more danger embarked in it.

 

The Indomitus terminators function fine on foot (especially if you have Primus Medicae you can put with a squad of 10). It's an easy choice to shoot the armed transport with a HSS when it also has the terminators inside, but if they aren't.... In this regard, the Rhino is okay, but you'll want to use it then lose it (run it up the board and have the embarked unit jump out, preferably on an objective for some Heart of the Legion, on turn 1). You can then use it for Line of Sight blocking.

 

The Breachers can take a grav-gun because DG don't care that it's heavy. The ability to lay down difficult terrain is very useful.

 

Regarding the future expansion to the Creeping Death RoW:

• Consider dropping the Praetor for a Consul-Delegatus and either a Chaplain or a Librarian. The former unlocks RoW and can unpin units (DG shooting is still affected by pinning). The latter depends on how your army narrative goes (still witch-hunters or disciples of Typhon starting to treat with the powers of the Warp).
• A Chaplain with Deathshroud will chew through anything with a 3+ save and the re-roll helps get those Rending(5+) results against 2+saves.
• A Librarian with Divination to give Precision Shots to the Grave Wardens is just nasty now that the Toxin Rounds are Assault 4 and not Blast 3". Or put him with the HSS squad and lascannon snipe Artificer Armor sergeants and other characters out of existence. Death Guard don't do challenges very well compared to many other legions, so removing those threats with ranged attacks is important.
• You don't have the sort of close combat threats I'd recommend taking Telepathy with to shut down Overwatch. You're not going to be doing a lot of charging, but you should be doing a lot of maneuvering to draw out favorable positions for exchanges of fire and restricting charge options. 
• The Siege Master could use a second unit to help out by granting Sunder if your are going to use the lascannons as sharpshooters.
• The HSS squad is a Threat and I don't currently see much anti-tank redundancy for when it is gone other than the powerfists on the terminators and maybe the various dreadnoughts (depending on loadout).  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[suxdavide]

Thanks man, this is very helpful! I'll try building something from this good tips :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ShibeKing]

Hey all. My AoD box is sitting unbuilt since I've run into a road block on finding a legion. Currently have all of the AOD box, but hoping to grab some Sicarans and Kratos tanks once I find my legion and paint this set.

 

Rules: I'd prefer something that gave more buffs to shooting rather than melee. However, I'm not against melee, the assault phase is just bad luck for me.

 

Role: Balanced or (or preferably) shooting focused. Just nothing focused on melee. Don't have any experience with HH, but I'd like to focus on tacticals and Veterans supported by tanks and aircraft. Nothing fancy or flashy.

 

Robby: I'm not too fond of the color yellow so Imperial Fists are out. Even that black and yellow scheme isn't for me. Also don't like hazard stripes so no IW. Overall not a fan of bright/light colors.

 

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by ShibeKing

[Doctor Perils]

Iron Hands perhaps? Death Guard are also infantry focused if you don't like black. I think Raven Guard can be built very nicely around shooting with snipers and such.

 

Are you looking more towards loyalists or traitors? Are there any story beats or themes that grab you from the Horus Heresy? Have you checked out possible unique units and characters to see if anything tickles your fancy for when the time comes to expand your collection?

[ShibeKing]

@Doctor Perils

No real prefence on loyalties.

 

Did some research based on your post.

I really like Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Ultramarines, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, and Sons of Horus from a model and lore perspective. Death Guard look and sound great, I just hate Nurgle and playing as a loyalist element of a traitor legion does not sit well with me.

Based on my preferred playstyle, this can then be narrowed down to DA, UM, and AL I guess.

 

I'd rather not play as any of the three Shattered Legions...

 

 

Thanks for the advice, helped me narrow my search down a good bit! Sucks I'm not a fan of assault, or else I'd just be playing as BA or SoH.

[jaxom]

On 11/25/2022 at 2:52 PM, ShibeKing said:

this can then be narrowed down to DA, UM, and AL I guess.

 

Do you have some sprue or minis you can test paint schemes on? Other than that, I'd say Alpha Legion has better rules for focusing on shooting. The extra 2" can keep you out of shooting or rapid fire range, and long-bomb charges. The Rewards of Treachery means you can grab some Tyrant Siege or Fulmentarus Terminators. Headhunters and Exodus can wreck characters. 

[ShibeKing]

@jaxom

 

I think my preference is always going to be black in terms of color scheme.

 

I was pretty disappointed to see Raven Guard and Iron Hands were two out of the three choices I had for a black armored legion. But at least the DA are black armored in 30k.

 

Your point on Alpha Legion is really tempting though. I don't like their blue metallic scheme as much as solid black, but their rules do sound more interesting.

[jaxom]

11 minutes ago, ShibeKing said:

don't like their blue metallic scheme as much as solid black

Black with dark blue accents was a description used by some of their elites.

[ShibeKing]

Alpha Legion looking a lot more attractive just from knowing that! I'll need to do a bit more reading and batrep watching before I decide, but I wanted to thank both of you who helped! My choice doesn't seem as daunting or difficult now.

[Xenith]

On 11/23/2022 at 6:28 AM, ShibeKing said:

Rules: I'd prefer something that gave more buffs to shooting rather than melee. However, I'm not against melee, the assault phase is just bad luck for me.

 

Role: Balanced or (or preferably) shooting focused.

 

I was about to say Dark Angels, as they're good at pretty much everything, whenI seen:

 

On 11/25/2022 at 7:52 PM, ShibeKing said:

Based on my preferred playstyle, this can then be narrowed down to DA, UM, and AL I guess.

 

On 11/28/2022 at 4:31 AM, ShibeKing said:

I think my preference is always going to be black in terms of color scheme.

 

I think Dark Angels it is for you! 

 

On 11/28/2022 at 12:31 AM, jaxom said:

Alpha Legion has better rules for focusing on shooting.

 

I'd disagree there, when Dark Angels get a flat +1 to hit with any bolt weapons if they choose, or +1 to hit with swords, or make themselves immune to melta instant death and breaching etc.

 

The AL trait is an interesting one. It absolutely doesnt make the AL better at things than other marine armies, like their tacticals will never be better than DA tacticals, and their despoilers will never be better than DA despoilers, but it's an always-on passive defensive buff that makes it a little harder for the opponent to bring all their weapons to bear, and makes it harder to pin them in melee. Alphas feel like they wont be able to brute force win, but you need to manipulate the game to your advantage - like between Mobius and Leviathal, you can get yourself an extra 3VP per game through focussing on your own mission. 

 

The Dark Angel hexathing, in my opinion, is super strong and should be one choice per army. You basically pick what that specific unit wants to do in the game (shoot, fight, survive), and make it 16% better at doing it. DA also have better characters, and amazing units in the cenobites and deathing, but they're pricy. 

 

Seeing a bit more about what you want in the army, Sicarans and Kratos, Alphas seem to reward a more infantry heavy army - in leviathal, coils and recon vehicles have to start in reserve. The +2" to melta range and to charge tanks is very good though. In Leviathal you also need more fast than heavy choices, so you need 3x FA if you want to put the sicaran and kratos in reserve. 

 

I find myself going without a rite using my Alphas for pretty much this reason. 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Xenith

[jaxom]

In general, I agree, but looking at a shooting army as a whole I don’t. Basically, I think Dark Angels make a better combined arms force while Alpha Legion make a better cram-all-the-shooting-in army.
 

Stormwing only applies to basic infantry bolt weapons (bolter, bolt pistol, combi-bolter). The other benefits are either close combat or defensive, and then they don’t get Stormwing. Cenobites are more close combat oriented. I think Headhunters can be more valuable than Interemptors if used properly.

 

Alpha Legion definitely has a more defensive benefit, but it is surprisingly effective when used correctly. Being at 11-12” for Rapid Fire but not counting as the same for Return Fire, edging out of the common 24” max range, etc. Headhunters and Lerneans are more range-based, and Siege Tyrants or Fulmentarus are available via Treachery. 

[ShibeKing]

After much back and forth I have decided to go with the 1st Legion. I just really like their black and red scheme, knightly aesthetic, and no Fallen! (Yet)

 

Thanks again for the help!

[Xenith]

19 hours ago, jaxom said:

Alpha Legion definitely has a more defensive benefit, but it is surprisingly effective when used correctly.

 

That's what I'm saying - DA, and other Legions, have straight up offensive buffs that are very clear to see and synergise with certain things - like fists take auto weapons, Dark Angels take bolters and swords.

 

I'm also saying that the flexibility offered by DA trait is above and beyone what the AL have - their bolter dudes are better at shooting, their anti tank dudes are better at shooting tanks, the stuff youd use melta to kill are more resistant to melta than others, they can get get +1 to wound characters. Each one of their units gets a buff to be better at what it does, (compared to other legions where there's a general buff that makes them better in either shooting or melee) albeit with very specific weapons - swords (that DA get super duper versions of so you wouldn't take anything else anyway).

 

The Alpha Legion trait doesn't make them outright better at doing anything like other legions ones do, but it will help you set up favourable matchups for yourself in shooting, and you'll be able to block the odd reaction by overing in the 11-12" or 23-24" zone as you say. They have something no other legion does, it's a unique, cool rule, but you really have to have a lot of stuff aligned to make it work. Alphas function well as an arms length shooty army, however that doesn't gel with objective play. The legion trait gives no benefit for melee focussed builds, making Alphas less flexible.

 

 

[jaxom]

100% agree @Xenith, Dark Angels make a much better combined arms force than Alpha Legion by mixing together the benefits of the Hexagrammaton with the appropriate units. I think the only army that comes close to matching them as a combined arms force are the Imperial Fists, and even then it's like comparing a 10 to a 7.

 

That's why I think the Dark Angels don't make as good a shooting army; they lose out on so much by pigeon-holing themselves like that. When AL go all-in on shooting, they lose less than DA and the AL special unit (plus Siege Tyrants or Fulmentarus via Rewards of Treachery) synergise better with with a gunline.

[Zoatibix]

Hello folks. I’m scrapping together the money to get into this game as there seems to be some interest in it locally.

 

Going for Iron Warriors as I love the steel and stripes.

 

I feel a bit overwhelmed by all the heavy and special weapon boxes, though.

 

Is magnetising worth the hassle, or would I end up running so many shooty units that it wouldn’t be worth it?

 

Which boxes would I be looking to get alongside the AoD Box?

 

Thank you.

[Brother_Angelus]

1 hour ago, Zoatibix said:

Is magnetising worth the hassle, or would I end up running so many shooty units that it wouldn’t be worth it?

 

Which boxes would I be looking to get alongside the AoD Box?

 

I wouldn't recommend magnetizing infantry models but I'm pretty religious about magnets on anything larger that can use a variable loadout. Jetbikes, Predators, Sabres, etc. 

 

The Autocannon/Lascannon/Volkite box is going to be a good pickup. You might want to look at converting the 10 Cataphractii from AoD in Siege Tyrants with rocket pods, and/or Dominator Cohort with Thunderhammers. It would also be handy to have some LR Proteus as a delivery system for those kinds of things. 

[Zoatibix]

Okay. Thank you.

[SvenIronhand]

I’ve tried and failed to get into HH several times. I think my chief mistake was assuming this was anything short-term, but I’ve come to terms with it being a long-term project. One RoW I’m interested in is the Recon Company. I was thinking an urban camo scheme like the 122nd Cadian with a flash of the Legion color on the shoulder pad. Right now, I just want to hear what Legions would fit such an idea. 

Edited March 2, 2023 by SvenIronhand

[jaxom]

Welcome @SvenIronhand! A lot of legions would work great as a Recon Company. In general, the ones which work best are going to be the ones with bonuses to shooting, or more generic bonuses. However, if you think you may supplement the Recon Squads with other stuff, it can be worth looking at all the options.

 

Loyalists

• Dark Angels bring great overall strength. You can give your core squads Stormwing for +1 to hit with bolters, or Firewing for +1 to wound against units containing an Independent Character if they have nemesis bolters. You can take most of their special units if you want to, and the other Hexagrammaton options can be used to help any counter-attack or more mobile portions of your force. Total score in my opinion: 5/5.
• White Scars will almost always get the turn they want because the Recon re-roll applies to any dice for first turn or Seize and you'd get to roll an additional die. The bonus movement from Swift of Action won't help your more gun-line-ish Recon Squads, but if you plan on supplementing them with bikes, then it can be useful. It could be very flavorful to have a Golden Keshig in Reserve (they're Heavy) and ready to come in to support the Recon elements. Total score in my opinion: 3/5.
• Space Wolves are another legion where their special rule would do more for the non-Recon elements. Personally, I think The Pale Hunters Rite of War, with Recon squads and the like starting on the board, would be the better way to represent the VIth Legion's use of Recon elements. Total score in my opinion: 2/5.
• Imperial Fists give a nice, straightforward bonus to all the bolt weapons in your Recon Squads. The Architect of War warlord trait synergizes well with where you are likely to have your squads. Phalanx Warders in a Termite Drill or Cataphractii with Teleport Strike are a great way to have a Heavy Reserve unit that doesn't have to come on from a board edge. Total score in my opinion: 5/5.
• Blood Angels are my personal choice if you want a Recon Company that mixes in fast-assault elements. The Recon elements would be more of an annoying fire-base the opponent has to dig out, and then Dawnbreaker Cohorts and Assault Squads hit them. However, that doesn't quite fit the Recon Company theme (kind of like the Space Wolves). Total score in my opinion: 2/5.
• Iron Hands are surprising good as Recon Squads because of Shroud Bombs and The Medusa's Scales. They're very hard to shift at range, but unfortunately that's all they have going for them. Both their special units are Heavy and can take Land Raider type transports, so not terrible as Reserve options. Total score in my opinion: 2/5.
• Ultramarines are in a similar place as the Imperial Fists. Their special ability requires some more set up, but can apply to more weapon types. Invictarus Suzerain are a great assault unit that can come on as Heavy Reserve in a Land Raider Proteus. Total score in my opinion: 5/5.
• Salamanders are in a similar place as Iron Hands, but worse because their Legion special is not as versatile. Total score in my opinion: 1/5.
• Raven Guard are great as Recon Company. Your Recon Squads are pretty much always going to have Shrouded(6+) with the extra distance from Shroud Bombs. Mor Dethyrn give an elite that can hang with the rest of your fire-base. The Talon rule makes your counter-assault units nasty, particularly your Dark Furies. Total score in my opinion: 5/5.

Traitors

• Emperor's Children are in a similar place as Space Wolves and Blood Angels. I'd see their Recon elements being the on-board presence for The Maru Skara Rite of War; similar to how the Wolves would use Recon elements for The Pale Hunters. Total score in my opinion: 2/5.
• Iron Warriors make for an interesting choice. A few forward Recon Squads with 18" Shrapnel Bolters could be worth the extra points in order to cut down on Return Fire before firing more valuable sniper squads or Seekers. The Legion special rule also will help get the most out of your anti-tank options. Siege Tyrants are Heavy Reserve, but them walking on and lighting up the side or rear armor of a tank is nothing to sneeze at. Total score in my opinion: 3.5/5.
•  Night Lords would go well with a lot of Nemesis Bolters because once a unit is Pinned, you'll get +1 to Wound rolls (and get that bonus if you outnumber the unit or they're Falling Back). Combine Shroud Bombs with Night Fighting and Prey Sight and you've got some very annoying Recon Squads to deal with from range. Night Raptors for counter-assault or shredding Pinned units... yeah. Total score in my opinion: 5/5.
• World Eaters are in a similar place as Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Emperor's Children. However, I think the straight +1 attack bonus makes for a more interesting Recon Company concept. If you can shoot the enemy melee units off the board then weight of numbers can give your Recon Squads an edge. I wouldn't go with Nemesis Bolters in this case though. Total score in my opinion: 2.5/5.
• Death Guard have a great edge for Recon Squads with Nemesis Bolters because they can move and fire with no penalty. You can fire-and-fade to draw in enemy assault elements and then (if Traitor aligned) hit them with Toxin Bombs when they charge. Deathshroud aren't Heavy so you can start them on the board with an HQ as a counter-assault unit. Total score in my (biased) opinion: 5/5.
• Thousand Sons, I think, are interesting. The Athanaen Order would give your Recon Squads with Nemesis Bolters an edge in Pinning enemy units. Forward deployed Recon and/or Seekers could swap Bolters for Asphyx Bolters (18", but gain Shred). HQs with psychic powers add a lot of utility and options to the Recon Company Rite of War. Magister Amon is a great fit for a Recon Company. His warlord trait gives Shrouded(5+) to all units with Infiltrate and Scout for the first two game turns (including himself, he can Infiltrate). Total score in my opinion: 4/5.
• Word Bearers have so much flavor invested in Dark Channelling and Gal Vorbak that I feel like it would kind of be a waste to go Recon Company with them. Having said that, Corrupt units and some Gal Vorbak make great counter-assault elements to supplement your Recon elements. Total score in my opinion: 3/5.
• Alpha Legion 'nuff said. But seriously, they're a very strong choice for Recon Company. Lies & Obfuscation stacks with Shroud Bombs, you can take Headhunters instead of (or in addition to) Seekers, and you can take Exodus. The Master of Lies warlord trait gives some very interesting list building options. Master of Lies warlord trait allows redeploying after the Seize roll. If Armillus Dynat is the warlord, you can give three units Infiltrate or Scout, to better fit in with your Recon elements (this can be used on Rewards of Treachery units; hello Infiltrating Pyroclasts). Total score in my opinion: 5/5.

 

Edited March 3, 2023 by jaxom

[jaxom]

Updated the above post.

 

[Silk]

where how what and why ;) 

 

So friends I need some input. I would like to deal more with 30k (possibly I wanna use the guys also in 40k) but I can't decide.

 

 I like a lot of things, destroyers, heavy support, dreadnoughts, but also jump packs, as you can see it's very difficult. Then I thought I'd go over the characteristics of the primarchs but thats not so easy too.

 

Let's assume I am what I am ;) 

 

- when things go wrong I am short-tempered and quickly pissed off

 

- I can usually laugh about it afterwards, depending on the situation

 

 - also structured but when it gets stressful I get a chaotic

 

 So it feels like each of the primarchs is somewhere... I know that's a huge task, I also discussed it directly with a game colleague who has now sold all his stuff so I can't rely on him... 

 

What else is there, if I know correctly, in our group are also:

 

Iron Warriors

Imperial Fists 

World Eaters 

maybe Death Guard but the information is vague there...

 

 maybe more but not sure, depending on I want to use the guys maybe in 40k.

 

Effectiveness is an open question for me it's about having a project again first. Loyal or heretic, I'm completely open. Who I can currently rule out as the primarch:

 

Lorgar (that he didn't notice )

Fulgrim

Magnus 

Corax ( I'm not an emo although I like to be left alone and to myself ;) but also the black armour)

Lion because black and chessboard far exceeds my painting skills

 

Ferrus Mannu's extremely cool fluff from the Legion, but the fu..ing black

 

Basically, Alpha Legion is extremely cool, but painting and the sheer selection when cherry-picking the other legions squads scares me, and I also don't find this twin primarch thing so cool.

 

 I also extremely like the MK2/MK3 alternatively MK5 armor so the heavy chunky one. 

 

Thanks for reading that wall of text :)

 

Best regards

 

Frank

[Doctor Perils]

If I understand correctly you don't want any black legions, and you want a different legion from your comrades

- you also seem to like the idea of a crafter as a primarch.

Have you considered the Salamanders? A legion of artisans who don't wear black. In 2.0 they are no longer disallowed destroyers (though some of their options still do)

[SlickSamos]

I'll go at it from a different angle from the good doctor.  As only a few legions have bonuses for fielding both Heavy Support squads and Destroyer Assault squads why not narrow it down that way?

Dark Angels - can choose a bonus for each squad

Ultramarines - mostly through their RoW

Death Guard - thematic & with RoW can make HSS stupidly useful 

Night Lords - can use HSS to reduce squad sizes before charging in

Iron Warriors - can use HSS to pin before charging in

Hope this helps!

[Cactus]

Here's a third angle: your description of yourself most resembles Leman Russ.

[Enraiged]

Greetings folks, I am trying to decide on a HH legion, but find it very hard to decide. I like something about most of the legions which makes it hard for me to pick one. I settle on one then the next day I change my mind, I am a fairly eclectic individual. I could probably describe myself in a way that would indicate most legions. I guess I’m still trying to figure stuff out. 
 

I know I’m not making this easy but if I could get some help it would be greatly appreciated. If people have any questions feel free to ask. Thank you very much.