Master vs Grand Master

[Vulshra]

What exactly is the difference between a master and a grand master? The leaders of the successor chapters are generally referred to as "grand masters", as are the leaders of the Deathwing and the Ravenwing. What is the difference in authority and position within the inner circle?

[Grotsmasha]

I'm going to caveat my statements by saying I am not as up-to-date with the law since the Cicatrix Maledictum, and as such some may be out of date.

 

The titles within the Inner Circle refer to their level of knowledge. So a Grand Master knows more of the truth of the Legion than a Master, BUT, which knowledge that defines the ranks has never been explicitly defined by GW in the Lore. So we know that the Supreme Grand Master knows of Luther, but I don't recall if this is known by Grand Masters, or Masters.

I believe there are also groups within the Inner Circle that have knowledge, that other groups within the Inner Circle of equivalent rank do not have.

 

It is also my understanding that a member may hold a level within the Inner Circle that may not necessarily be supported by their "military" rank. On the flip side of that, certain levels of knowledge would be required at certain levels of "military" rank to adequately perform the role.

 

Having said all of that, a Chapter Master (Grand Master) is likely to have more knowledge of the Fallen than a Company Master (Master), BUT, this does not preclude a Company Master having the rank of Grand Master within the Inner Circle. Unlikely, maybe, but impossible? No.

[davextreme]

The short answer is that none has been stated (as far as I’m aware—there’s nothing in any of the codexes about the difference, at least). There’s no in-game difference.

 

The model now called a Talonmaster used to be the “Master of the Ravenwing,” (I have an old metal version—which really messed up its center of gravity!) In the story this was Gideon, Sammael’s predecessor, and he was called a “Master” and not a “Grandmaster,” so clearly someone with that rank can lead the 2nd company—you don’t have to be a Grandmaster. So presumably it’s a higher rank you can achieve above that of leading a company.

[Vulshra]

So my understanding is that there is both a mechanical and lore difference, though the lore difference is unclear:
Mechanically, grandmasters are chapter master equivalent types: the grandmaster of the deathwing gives chapter master rerolls to all deathwing units, the grand master of the ravenwing does the same for ravenwing units

lore wise they seem to have a stature within the inner circle but its unclear to me the precise status. Most successor chapters are lead by "grand masters', with azreal being the "supreme grand master", placing himself over the grand masters. However, there are two things that spark my confusion there
1) are Beliaal and Samael equivalent in prestige/honor in the inner circle to a successor chapter chapter master?

2) I've seen Nakir of the Consecrators referred to as Supreme Grand Master before, though this may be a typo. However, if this is the case, does this render him equivalent in honor to Azrael in some respects? Not in all obviously but given his status as a former interrogator chaplain it may be possible 

[Grotsmasha]

1) For this, it implies to me that Belial and Sammael have authority over their Organisations (Deathwing and Ravenwing) within other Unforgiven Chapters. As in Belial can "pull rank" and over-rule Masters of the 1st Companies of other Unforgiven Chapyers.

 

2) For me, this is a writer being unfamiliar with the established Lore, and misunderstanding that only Azrael bears the title of Supreme Grand Master, and not all Unforgiven Chapter Masters.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Grotsmasha

[bigtrouble]

As the lore has progressed from codices to novels, the lines between the ranks have become clearer.

 

In the ancient past of 1996, it was established that Azrael is Supreme Grand Master, Ezekiel is the Grand Master of Librarians, and the deathwing and ravenwing had nameless Masters.

 

Since then, I believe 4th ed?? the leaders of the deathwing and ravenwing have had the title Grand Master, and became named characters.

 

In Gav Thorpe’s various novels, the successor chapters are led by Grand Masters, not Supreme Grand Masters.

 

Essentially, Grand Master indicates an elite position within the larger inner circle, presumably with full knowledge of the existence of the fallen, and Cypher.

 

The Grand Master of the Deathwing assumes operational command of the Chapter upon the death of the Supreme Grand Master, but must still be “ratified” by the inner circle of grand masters and pass trials before taking the title of Supreme Grand Master.

 

Any company commander within the unforgiven is a Master. I have seen many places where they are informally addressed as Brother-Captain, so there is still an understanding that they have a rank equivalent to any codex chapter.

 

In many novels, the inner-inner circle excludes some company commanders and is limited to Grand Masters, plus maybe a few trusted others such as Asmodai. But the larger inner circle - let’s call it the council of the Unforgiven - is composed of all the company masters of all the unforgiven chapters and certain veterans when they are all called together.