Is really red thirst a flaw?

[Lathspell]

I've been pondering if Red Thirst is really a flaw, or something the Emperor gifted to the IXth Legion, and the idea of it being a trait and not a flaw at all keeps making more sense each passing day, let me elaborate how I came into this idea.

 

As we've been discovering through Horus Heresy novels, the IXth Legion was meant to be Big Daddy E's Inferno, an unstoppable raging firestorm that would destroy everything on its path.

 

He already had superhuman soldiers designed to be almost the peak of warfare in all its ways, but even that was not enough for a legion that was supposed to be the epithome of destruction incarnate. What could he give to an astartes to turn him into a further unstoppable killing machine than he already was? Exactly, a personality disorder that, when triggered, turned an astartes into a raging monster craving for blood, so Red Thirst it is.

 

Does it make sense so far? Good, because the rabbit hole still goes on.

 

Nice, Big E was satisffied, he had his tool of mass destruction, but how could he handle such a dangerous weapon, so it would be safe to employ? You just couldn't pull the trigger of the IXth Legion and pray for it to stop before ruinning everybody's day, so Sanguinius was devised.

 

Think of it, Sanguinius is almost Space Jesus, the epithome of the Good Guy in the grimdark of 30K, not only he is one of the most powerful seers in the universe, but also shares a powerful Psychic Bond with his sons, that turned the IXth Legion from Cannibal Outcasts nobody wanted by their side, to Crimson Angels, thought to be the brightest pinnacle of the Legions by literally everyone in just a few decades. Yes, there were some cases of lost marines, but looking at the wide picture, can you imagine a more perfect leash for the unstoppable legion? He is the perfect tool for the job, he doesn't hesitate to unleash the inferno when needed, ask the iron bulls (no you can't, they were exterminated to the last man with such extreme measures, that would make Mortarion proud) , but he is also able to make a world comply without a single shot.

 

Being such a great and communicative Dad, as the Emperor is, it' s strange he forgot to tell Sanguinius about this little inoffensive quirk his geneseed had, but hey, he had to take care of the Webway project, you know?

 

Until now, everything is fine, the Blood Angels are set, and ready for the task, but Horus decided to go Rebel and the Heresy began.

 

Horus knew he couldn't turn Sanguinius from the Emperor, and also that any other traitor legion sent against thim and the Blood Angels would be returned to the sender in a gory mess of body parts, so he sent them to face the endless demonic hordes in Signus Prime, waaaaaaaay far from him and Terra.

 

There, the Chaos Gods tried to lure him into becoming the Red Angel, because they knew that it was Sanguinius the key to turn the whole legion, if he didn't turn, none of his sons would, such was the power of the bond. We also see the consecuences of messing with the Psychic bond, the first instance of the black rage.

 

Later, Horus kills Sanguinius, and turn the whole Blood Angels Legion into the most unstoppable inferno ever imagined, that rout the entire Heresy Armies almost single handlely, and at the same time printing the Psych of the Blood Angels with the Black Rage forever, because of the bloody bond!

 

Is all of this just a conspiranoic grunt, or does it make sense? Let me know in the comments!

[WrathOfTheLion]

I'm not addressing all of your thought train, as I still need to read through it and compare to my thoughts on more.

 

But I do think the idea of it being a flaw is a perspective issue as well, such that we don't understand the Emperor and what he was trying to achieve. Like in a metaphysical way that one may not understand or one may be disillusioned as to why evil things are allowed to occur were there a higher power, we don't understand whether the Emperor designed it for some purpose, or whether it matches our mundane perception of it as a mistake. So we perceive it as a gene flaw, but in reality, it's above our pay grade so to say.

 

We'd need the Emperor to intercede, but he's now unapproachable on the Golden Throne, assuming he would tell us his machinations even were he not.

Edited June 1, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[N1SB]

I, too, have been pondering this, especially in the wake of Horus Heresy 2.0.  Like Brother Wrath said, it's a perception...or at least a situational...er, situation.

 

 

+++ Perception of Space Marines in 40k vs. 30k +++

 

 

In 40k, Space Marines have been the Defenders of Humanity for 10,000 years.  In that context, the Red Thirst is probably not a great thing to have.

 

In 30k, Space Marines were the Conquerors of Humanity for about 200 years.  That's how the Imperium was formed, Legionnaires invaded human worlds.

 

The more I delve into the lore, the more it seems Space Marines weren't supposed to have been the Emperor's endgame, they were a tool for the 30k era Great Crusade.  Primarchs like Roboute Guilliman planned for his Astartes to have a life beyond war afterwards, but he was the exception, not the rule.  Malcador himself pointed out they had wanted something like the Horus Heresy for them to wipe each other out, the only problem the civil war started earlier than expected, before they were ready.

 

Thus, in the context of 30k with Astartes as Conquerors, something like the Red Thirst might be A Feature, Not A Bug.  Because There Are No Wolves On Fenris, I wouldn't say for certain one way or another, but I think it's worth pondering.  The only actual issue I have is the following...

 

 

+++ Space Marines were probably not the goal, Primarchs were +++

 

 

Again, the more I delve into the lore, the more I find the Emperor didn't so much plan for Astartes as he did Primarchs.  Primarchs were the primary goal of the Emperor, Astartes were created to salvage the project for the Great Crusade.  So did the Emperor plan the Red Thirst for whatever purpose Sanguinius was supposed to serve?

 

On this, I really don't know.  I will ponder it as Bolter &Chainsword crosses the Rubicon soon.

[Helias_Tancred]

I've always viewed the Red Thirst as a flaw in the IX Legion gene-seed that was harnessed into a useful tool as much as they could make it. You can still get lost in it and lose your grip on it, but the marines of the Blood Angel legion and later chapters strived to make it serve their needs.

 

The Back Rage, is entirely different.

 

I believe the Emperor knew the Red Thirst was in them, and was part of their design. Not so with the Black Rage.

 

When you begin comparing the designed roles of the various legions you definitely see overlap and redundancy, while each legion remains unique. The Emperor did a masterful job planning out the legions and their primarchs. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I believe wolf lord rho has stated the Thirst was indeed intentional and maybe even the rage may have been intentionally built into the gene seed.

[Scribe]

I mean, is losing control and drinking the blood of the people you are meant to defend a flaw?

 

(I would say yes.)

[Blindhamster]

Cawl flat out states that the red thirst was not tampered with as it was clearing intentional on the emperors part. So no, it’s a feature not a bug. But it’s also a feature that is not well suited to the role 40K marines have. Edited June 1, 2022 by Blindhamster

[Lathspell]

 

The Back Rage, is entirely different.

 

I believe the Emperor knew the Red Thirst was in them, and was part of their design. Not so with the Black Rage.

 

I agree, I think black rage wasn't exactly on Blood Angels geneseed, it is a side effect of the Psychic Bond between Sanguinius and his sons, and it is like Red Thirst gone super saiyan blue mode.

 

If you think of it, if the bond was the leash devised to take red thirst at bay, when something goes wrong with it, :cuss hits the fan. The first time, when Sanguinius is knocked out , Blood Angels go black rage mode on Signus, the second time, when Sanguinius dies, Black Rage is forever there. Would black Rage be there if not for the bond? I don't honestly know.

[lansalt]

Yeah, it's canon that the Red Thirst was something the Emperor put on purpose in the BA geneseed. The reason is unknow, and it can be just a "misunderstood feature" as others say. I think there's a possible clue in what is revealed at the end of Penitent, the last Bequin novel.
 
The Black Rage is something completely different. A warp-based "illness", like the TS' Flesh Change, born out of Sanguinius' death.

[Xenith]

Craving blood might be a side effect of the enhanced/overactive omephagaea that they use to assimilate memories of the dead, and rapidly level up new recruits.

[BloodyB]

I can see this being the case, but I could only speculate as to the Emperor's overall plan.

 

I do have to note that while Sanguinius being active seemed to hold the Red Thirst in check quite well, the bond only became active when the Legion was reunited with Sanguinius. While he was on Baal, the Thirst was more out of control than in present day. Even after reuniting, Sanguinius had to form his 3 Spheres system, and encourage artistry and creative outlets among his Sons to bring the Thirst so fully under control. The Blood Angels, and several successors, still practice the artistic ventures that seem to help.

 

Sanguinius also created the Sanguinary Priesthood to help control the Thirst in the Blood Angels, even creating the Chalices that exhort his Sons to this day. I think that the bond between Sanguinius and his Sons was far deeper than even the Emperor knew, as looking to ensure their children's future even beyond their own death is a step that no Primarch took, not even Guilliman set up plans for post-Primarch marines to follow, just a book for marines to use with or without a Primarch.

 

As for whether the Red Thirst and/or Black Rage are negatives? The Rage definitely is, it kills the victim's morality, sense of self and sense of duty in time. For an Astartes, that has to be truly terrifying in a way a non-Astartes could never understand. The Thirst, meanwhile, is a bit of a mixed blessing. It can leave entire marine taskforces in a terrible spot at the worst possible time, and has probably cost a huge number of Blood Angels their lives. But to those Veterans that know how to use it, to the ones that can embrace it in their darkest hoirs, it can turn battles. In it's embrace, marines become capable of taking on heroic odds, even by their standards, and winning. They hurl back foes from the battlelines with a terrible savagery, and become capable of awesome feats of speed and strength.

 

The Red Thirst is a weakness for a defensive chapter, operating closely with allied units. For a thousand-strong shock troop, landing in the thickest of fighting, it is an unbelievabla advantage. For taking on the most powerful, most well-protected enemy leaders, the mightiest champions, the Thirst, and even the Rage, are terrible tools to be brought to bear.

[Arkangilos]

On 6/1/2022 at 7:56 AM, Xenith said:

Craving blood might be a side effect of the enhanced/overactive omephagaea that they use to assimilate memories of the dead, and rapidly level up new recruits.

This is my take on it. The Emperor’s design was the enhanced omephagaea, but the pay off is the Red Thirst. So the Red Thirst is a flaw but one that was necessary with the rest.

 

Cawl might just be saying he didn’t get rid of the Thirst because it was by design it was there, because it’s an effect of the actual design the emperor wants. One of those, “I could take the thirst away, but then I’d be taking away the Omephagaea enhancements that cause it.”

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

Iirc, Malevolence links RT with omophagea and suggests that it was Emperor's intention from the beginning.