Guilliman at the new points cost

[Captain Idaho]

So now that Guilliman has gone down to 300pts, has he arrived at some utility and usefulness now, comparative to the rest of armies and cheese out there?

I mean, direct comparisons notwithstanding, considering Guilliman internally to an Ultramarines force.

At 300pts, with the drop to starting Command Points (lame) and use of said command points to  use Warlord Traits and Relics (doubly lame, maybe even triple), his extra 3 Command Points are pretty handy.

I tentatively think he's much more useful but still is fundamentally flawed. He's obviously not as offensive as some of the new characters out there, but his key draws, such as 3 Command Points, aren't as good as they seem.

Let's consider that you want The Imperium's Sword on a character, well now you have to pay a CP for Guilliman to use a Warlord Trait that has dubious benefit to Ultramarines armies when the biggest killer to them will be shooting. So it's costing 2 CPs to get Imperium's Sword on a character when another army without him will just pay 1 CP. So the benefit is a little reduced.

Flexibility is much reduced in the same way. You ain't taking Nobility Made Manifest in any Ultramarines army otherwise, so now you're paying a CP for a wasted Warlord Trait and another for what you wanted, whilst another army might have 2 Warlord Traits they want.

What examples might this include? A Captain with Imperium's Sword (smash Captain if you will) and an Apothecary with Selfless Healer. With Guilliman we can only have 1 of these Warlord Traits.

Not necessarily game breaking as you build your list around Guilliman more, but certainly stifling somewhat and annoying.

Positives

Guilliman does provide his aura abilities to Core units around him and further at 12" to also non-Core units. This can be good for Centurions and vehicles to reroll ones.

I'm thinking a Centurion squad following Guilliman with Apothecary in support then a wedge of fighting troops around him isn't terrible. Maybe Terminators since they can fight in melee whilst still shooting, though a big unit of Hellblasters alongside Guilliman would also be killer. (Or both?)

If Guilliman can be alongside some bikers he could be very dangerous. Melta attack bikes will ruin someone's day if within 6" for example. He is fast and so are they, so maneuvering shouldn't be impossible. 

He is still dangerous up close, though will struggle against some of the biggest and baddest models out there. We need to use combinations like above to overcome that issue.

Summary

I think Guilliman is very effective at his new Points cost. He isn't breaking 9th edition anymore as, well other army books still do that even after the changes from the Balance Dataslate, but he is not to be dismissed in the hands of a good player.

The issue comes not from Guilliman, ultimately, but rather the army as a whole. Ultramarines just aren't quite dangerous enough as Codex Space Marines isn't quite the force it once was considering the power of some enemies. I'm going to take him more often and see where he can take us, particularly in competitive settings.

Dreadnoughts in particular might enjoy accompanying him. And I love Dreads.

******

Anyone else have thoughts on the matter :)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Geedub has decided in their infinite wisdom that extra WLTs and relic break the game, even though they wrote the codices so you can do just that… well when you had some CPs. Honestly I’m very close to quitting and just wait to see what 10th edition brings.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah I didn't like those changes. The answer to overpowered units wasn't limited Strategums or Command Points. 

Still, least Guilliman helps mitigate that problem for us whilst it has a greater impact on other armies.

[MegaVolt87]

Give him Sire of the Ultramarines, let him chose any UM WLT pre-battle at deployment. He is a primarch who is a master of war for his Astartes, in both era's. 

[justicarius6]

The fact that he's still a Super-Heavy where he really needs to be a HQ like his heretical doppelganger Abaddon is the big limiting factor still for Papa G in my opinion.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah it does hurt needing to fork out additional points on 2 HQs. If Apothecaries were HQs, or Chapter Champions or Ancients, then the mandatory choices wouldn't be such a tax for Guilliman really.

[Emperor Ming]

What about Calgar? cheaper, generating two cp is very good, and is he tougher to kill with half damage? probably

[Captain Idaho]

Calgar has his own merits but he's not tougher to kill due to a 3+ Invulnerable save, higher toughness and more wounds on Guilliman's part and definitely not as offensive or good at boosting those around him. He's a budget choice, I guess. Saves a lot of points but won't be such a centrepiece to the army function.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Captain Idaho

[Prot]

Honestly I think Abaddon is better now. That's just my opinion without playing either of these characters at their new costs, but I played both previously and thought Abe was a bit of a better bargain. Now with the rules' changes I believe Abe has a notable edge.

As a side note, I don't think anybody I know who currently plays 40K approves of the reduced CP AND the CP WL trait/relic stuff. 

Right now, I'm just playing for fun. The old rumour I hold on to is the UM supplement coming out end of summer, but who knows if it's true. Nephilim I thought was going to help, but there's quite a bit of negatives that seemed to have launched in parallel with the good stuff.

[Paulinus]

Looking to keep field testing Gman.  Played my first Nephilim game last night with a weird list but worked for me. 
 

Guilliman is a bit better at 300pts.  And the CP  bonus is a bigger thing that we think. 
 

First thing is that we have to learn new list building.  Everyone does.  So combos and builds will not be the same or will cost much more to achieve.  With Gman (and Calgar to lesser extent) getting those CP bonuses we get a significant advantage.  And don’t forget Tigurius being able to generate one as well using the Ultramarine discipline. 
 

A lot of useful strats like rapid redeploy, defensive focus, fall back and rengage etc, you get to play more of because of those 3 extra strats.

Think of it this way.  By taking Guilliman you are getting the equivalent of one less effective warlord trait but getting up to two relics and or traits for free (assuming you use those points for that).

then you still have 6 left before the game starts allowing you to do even more pregame stuff if needed, so likely rapid redeploy and maybe you want a Volcon or two.  So maybe 4 to start.  Most armies will be starting with 1 or 2. 

[Captain Idaho]

It's sad Guilliman's Warlord Trait is so situational as to be useless to most Ultramarines players. 

I couldn't agree with Prot more really. Abaddon is superior in all ways that impact the game to win it. Sure Guilliman can boost non-Core 12" away, but that is extremely limited and alongside the 3CPs is not game changing enough to compare favourably. 

If we can make him work I'm ok with a losing direction comparison of course, but then we have the disparity between Codex books to contend with.

What strengths do we have that we can capitalise on primarily with Guilliman?

[Cruor Vault]

On 6/24/2022 at 2:20 PM, Captain Idaho said:

 

Let's consider that you want The Imperium's Sword on a character, well now you have to pay a CP for Guilliman to use a Warlord Trait that has dubious benefit to Ultramarines armies when the biggest killer to them will be shooting. So it's costing 2 CPs to get Imperium's Sword on a character when another army without him will just pay 1 CP. So the benefit is a little reduced.

 

I don't see anything in the wording of either 'Hero of the Chapter' or the new Warlord trait Stratagem requiring you to actually give a WL trait to your WL before using 'Hero of the Chapter'.  You should be free to use 'Hero of the Chapter' without spending the extra CP on G-man's WL trait.

[Captain Idaho]

That... is a great workaround.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Agreed .