Chapter Approved Points drops

[Special Officer Doofy]

Welcome back everyone. Did you guys get a chance to look at the points update from the community page? Bloat drones went down 15pts each, PBC went down 30pts, Blight Haulers went down 10pts. Blightlord Terminators are back to 40pts, Deathshroud at 50pts, and poxwalkers back down to 5pts each again. Plaguecaster went down 5pts. Mortarion is at 450pts now.

All of this is very welcome, but the most puzzling thing is the unit that needed the most love, the humble Plague Marine, did not get changed at all. Should have went down 1 point to an even 20pts and their wargear should have went from 10pts down to 5pts (like Blightlord Terminators). 

[McElMcNinja]

From my understanding via Goonhammer, all Plague Marine weapons are now free.  That’s a huge plus if true.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

The cost of combiweapons for models that start with combibolters seems to be 5 points - it seems GW is valueing the combibolter you need to give up at 5 points.  As for free weapons, that is only for the ones that the base squad's loadout.  Still, it does amount to a "stealth" points decrease for units that come base with weapons that you previously had to pay points for.

[Tokugawa]

"No plague marine could leave home with a boltgun"

 

Now we could jam flail, launcher, plasma...in every possible slots, for free. Although the previous 10pts cost was obviously overcosted, it is still worth a "-5pts" buff for plague marines. The buff is huge. 

[ArcNitemare]

Alot of the changes are nice, like MBH, PBC, and FBD going down in price is very handy, and while Hellbrutes also dropped a tiny bit I still don't see a reason to bring them over Blighthaulers, even more so now. Both Terminators getting their point changes from the last update revoked is a very welcome change, and same with Poxwalkers. And if I'm not mistake DP also went down 10 points.

All of these alone are very nice changes, but lets now focus on the biggest buff I think DG got, and its one I'm iffy on. Plague Marines needed something, they were expensive for what they did, and their weapons and equipment were even more so. So while on one hand its nice to see their special weapons and equipment being free, I worry what effect long term this will have on the army. Only time will tell.

That being said I'm very happy, and between these changes and AoC I can see DG being an A tier army. Now if only they could have DR work on mortal wounds.

[Tokugawa]

If "luxury plague marine spam" become a dominating build, GW would withdraw this change immediately. "Being better but not too good" is the way to survive in 40K balancing.  

[Special Officer Doofy]

The Daemon Prince didn't change, he is still is 140 +10 for weapons +35 for wings. I highly doubt the omission of plague marine wargear on the page means their cost is going away.

[ArcNitemare]

Ahh, right. Thanks for the catch and apologies for missing that.

[Special Officer Doofy]

8 hours ago, ArcNitemare said:

Ahh, right. Thanks for the catch and apologies for missing that.

All good, I think missing things is part of the hobby now between a core rule book, codex, faq/erratas, chapter approved, points changes, new balance updates, white dwarf articles and campaign books. There is no need to apologize, I don't think my group has made it through a game of 9th without missing/messing something up!

[Sherrypie]

The plague marine upgrades are free, this has been confirmed by GW rules folks in chat. It is intentional.

While in principle I'm not loving free things for anyone, it does make sense in context. If the marines themselves got cheaper, the optimal move would still be to just take the now cheaper barebones squad for backfield objective duties. Done this way, the individual marine squads still cost a lot, but have freedom to gear up for many purposes. They will see more time on the tables and probably still not dominate many tournaments, so it's a wash.

Interesting times ahead, regardless. Time to convert some more ground pounders.

[Tokugawa]

If a DG player take 30 PM and win a tournament in new version, it won't prove PM change is overpowered, because DG player playing PM is a naturally thing, DG player love to buy PM models and GW want to sell them PM models.

But, if a CSM player import 30 PM and still win a tournament, then the debate will end and PM free wargears will be immediately withdrawed.

[Special Officer Doofy]

I'm still very skeptical of the free wargear, seems too good to be true, like an oversight. First time I read the points update I thought the omission meant they didn't change in cost. I have a feeling people will load them up with special weapons and in the next update they will all go back to being points and people will miss their bolter plague marines haha.

Plague Marines did need love though. Almost never see any even in non competitive lists for DG, which made me sad. Feels weird with legionaires and tactical marines still paying for their wargear. 

Edited June 27, 2022 by Putrid Choir
Grammar

[Plague _Lord]

It's not only plague marines that get free wargear,  BT  powerfists are another and it's all intentional. We now have different playstyles and it all looks great. Even though our pms are now useable, the army is still balanced by horribly overcosted hqs and the tragically slow movement. 

 

I'm thinking of 2 PM builds : 1 with4 5man close combat squads in 2 rhinos to blitz objectives and 1 terminus est build with 2 10 man close combat squads to do act as a 2nd wave behind 70 poxwalkers.

The shooty loadout 'm iffy on since AoC plasma is just bad - ap3 is not good anymore since everything that doesn' t have aoc, has an invul andon top of that we can still lose ourguys with no revive abilities. 

 

I still think a terminator brick and deathshroud will be usefull, but plague marines do add a lot of damage to an army that lacks it. 

 

Oh and PBC are back on the menu boys! 

[Tokugawa]

BT received 4 pieces of free wargears(2 fists, 1 sword, 1 flamer pistol) on a 10 men unit. That is not comparable to DG's 11 pieces, either on quality or quantity. 

 

And although this change made primaris crusader squad better, it may not make it more popular among BT lists…because spam 2W marine bodies are no longer viable. No matter the chapter or options, it can't outshoot or outfight PM of same points cost. Which made the list a weaker version of 50 PMs DG list. 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Tokugawa

[Special Officer Doofy]

The point changes and secondary changes seem nice, but it's too late for my gaming group, they quit 40k again and went back to MTG and video games a while ago (do to how horribly balanced the codex creep has been and the slow codex release schedule). Would have loved to run a bunch of plague marines. My last 2k list went down about 200pts, that would have been fun to shove more units in! Although I still would not tell someone to model all their plague marines with special weapons. Removing their costs completely is just a band aid for one of the worst performing units in one of the worst performing codexes. I'm sure some form of cost will come back for them soon.

[Xenith]

On 6/27/2022 at 2:14 AM, Putrid Choir said:

I'm still very skeptical of the free wargear, seems too good to be true,

Guard units got free equipment a while ago, and it's written right there in the last line (in brackets) of the second para in the document. Thousand Sons also got some stuff greatly reduced (warpflamers) or even free (icons of flame) which is a helpful boost. 

Sorry about your gaming group, however the codex release schedule was objectively, for GW, blistering, and would have been faster if not for you know what. That said, if they're so mercurial, they'll pick up 40k again at some point. 

Also, are all your players competitive tourney gamers? DG codex is still decent in a non-hyper competitive environment. Our DG player went 4-1 in a 40k major in Feb, and came second in a local group tourney last month, only losing against pre-FAQ custodes. I myself got pasted by them. But I can't change your mind if you've already made it up . 

Edited July 1, 2022 by Xenith

[Special Officer Doofy]

We've been gaming together most of our lives, 25+ years for some of us. They are hobby butterflies, we've came and gone from the hobby before, so I highly doubt they won't get sucked back in. We generally don't competitively list build (we like to use all of our mini's) but play competitively in fun gamey ways like the old konga lines and moving rhino's sideways to hide infantry behind them or sketchy deployments. 

DG have been struggling recently. I love hearing others success stories with them, and I have had some of my own, but it's not hard to look at multiple outlet's tourney reports to look at faction win rates and see DG have gone right back to where they were in the end of 8th, near the bottom and only winning just over 1/3 of the time by some reports (pre AoC, haven't looked recently). People can say the game is balanced all they want but there is a reason half of the codex just dropped in points and everything gained armor of contempt compared to a codex like tyranids that only had point increases.

My groups issues (and mostly mine too) with the codex release is that people only compare their release speed to itself. So yes the codex release might seem faster than previous editions (we all know there were editions where factions didn't even get a codex during the edition) but as soon as you compare it to other similar hobbies, specially in 2022 with digital tools in everyone's fingertips, it's pretty pathetic if you ask me. And the creep might not be intentional, but it sure seems that way to push sales, and that rubs my friends and brother the wrong way (like in a lootbox / micro transaction kind of way).  And I don't buy any of the covid / supply issues as their excuses time and time again. I'm an engineer in the auto industry, a much larger and more complex market with suppliers/customers on almost every continent and our company is STILL over the 98% delivery point even with all the microchip shortages and plant shutdowns. If we could make it work between all the different governments and laws and price increases I just don't buy the excuses from the billion dollar toy company that operates at near 30% profits. My opinion of course.

I didn't sell my stuff off this time (keeping my DG and Nurgle Daemons). Still watching the hobby through the community page and this forum. But that said I haven't bought anything since the DG codex / lord of Virulence release (Jan 2021 I think?) and sold off my 2 shadowspear halves and holiday battle box of chaos space marines, got tired of waiting for 2 wounds. And after glancing over their codex with all the new limitations and removals I am so glad I did haha.

Anyways, back to DG point changes, I just don't see the removal of wargear costs on PM as healthy. Tactical marines and Legionnaires still have to pay for theirs, so I don't see it as something lasting. I'm very impressed with GW for their newer community engagement / surveys which led to the new balance slates ontop of chapter approved point changes which should in the long run bring more balance to the game, but even that just shows the players how imbalanced their game was to begin with having codexes that came out later so much stronger that they had to give power armor (some of the earliest codexes this edition) a blanket incoming AP reduction buff to stay relevant ontop of point drops. I still have my gaming table set up and my brother still has both of his set up, so if I ever get the itch to play again I can always scratch it without convincing the whole or majority of the group.

[Tokugawa]

https://www.goonhammer.com/nephilim-faction-focus-death-guard/

 

goonhammer updated its DG article.

[Special Officer Doofy]

Yeah I saw it and gave it a read. One of the biggest punches to the gut for 9th DG for me was losing 5+++ for the worse -1D, which is easily mitigated by opponents with 1D weapons and MW, or 3D and stronger weapons.

I feel DG lost alot of staying power, while still being the slowest army in the game, for not much improvement on damage. Might take 10th edition and DR going back to 5+++ to get me to play again.

Edit: I do wonder what they will do to Nurgle Daemons DR, will they buff Plaguebearers to 2W and nerf DR to -1D as well or do they leave it the 5+++?

Edit #2: according to the video linked in this thread 

If there are any weight to the rumors found in the video Plaguebearers are going to 2W and DR for daemons is going to -1D as well. Booooo

Edited July 8, 2022 by Putrid Choir

[Marshal Mittens]

I imagine that the points changes to plague weapons are likely to convince people to buy more plague marines to build with free plague weapons.

[Plague _Lord]

Played my 1st game post dataslate today.

Forgot a bunch of stuff from home so had to modify my list with what the store had.

Took more or less:

Mortarion

4x5 plague marines, full melee with meltaguns in 2 rhinos

2 pbc

1 contemptor

2 plaguecasters, 1 with the wretched strat and relic

tallyman

17 poxwalkers

 

Went up against tau with 3 hammerheads lol. No need to do a full write up as I would have been tabled on turn 3 if not for me conceding during turn 2. I even got to go first and killed 1 hammer head but morty went down SUPER EASY. It only took 1 hammer head and 2 sunshark bombers to kill him off and this was with miasma on him. No invuls is absurd. What's worse is that my opponent didn't miss once with his hammerheads - he rolled every hit and every single wound. Anyway this concludes that morty is still trash and the point reduction didn't change a thing.

 

On the plus side PMs in rhinos seems decent and I will probably include at least 1 rhino in most lists. The PBC seem ok to take at this cost but I still wouldn't rate them as an A tier unit. Contemptors are still BOSS. The wretched super psycher was really cool - actually got a load of mortal wounds out of him. It is really tough fighting against the new codexes that have an abundance of buffs and rerolls where all our unit are stuck at hitting on 3's and 4's at best with minimal rerolls.

[Special Officer Doofy]

Yeah the state of the creep is absurb at this point. They have armor saves and armor pen, then invuln saves, then things that bypass the invuln, and now Daemon saves that ignore the things that bypass invuln saves. It feels like a bad joke at this point.

[Tokugawa]

Rhino has sh*t profile and would die quickly as the only vehicle target don't have -1dmg.

But we very need an obsec unit going to an objective at turn1, so the 80pts is often a price we must pay and want to pay.

[Tokugawa]

DG engines list won a 70 players GT:

 

++ Spearhead Detachment -3CP (Chaos - Death Guard) [78 PL, -3CP, 1,360pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

Gametype

Plague Company

+ HQ +

Death Guard Daemon Prince [10 PL, 185pts]: Foetid Wings, Hellforged sword, Suppurating Plate

+ Elites +

Tallyman [4 PL, 70pts]

+ Fast Attack +

Foetid Bloat-drone [7 PL, 120pts]: Fleshmower

Foetid Bloat-drone [7 PL, 120pts]: Fleshmower

Foetid Bloat-drone [7 PL, 120pts]: Fleshmower

Myphitic Blight-haulers [14 PL, 240pts]: Myphitic Blight-hauler, Myphitic Blight-hauler

Myphitic Blight-haulers [14 PL, 240pts]: Myphitic Blight-hauler, Myphitic Blight-hauler

Myphitic Blight-haulers [7 PL, 120pts]: Myphitic Blight-hauler

+ Heavy Support +

Plagueburst Crawler [8 PL, 145pts]: 2x Entropy cannon, Heavy slugger

++ Supreme Command Detachment 0CP (Chaos - Death Guard) [25 PL, 450pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Detachment Command Cost

Gametype

Plague Company: The Inexorable

+ Primarch | Daemon Primarch | Supreme Commander +

Mortarion [25 PL, 450pts]: 1. Miasma of Pestilence, 1. Revoltingly Resilient, 2. Gift of Contagion, 2. Living Plague, 4. Arch-Contaminator, 5. Curse of the Leper, Warlord

++ Reinforcements (Chaos - Daemons) [190pts] ++

+ Reinforcement Points +

Reinforcements [190pts]: Reinforcement Points, 9x Reinforcement Points

++ Total: [103 PL, -3CP, 2,000pts] ++

[Special Officer Doofy]

Nice to see a Daemon Engine list doing well! That was my favorite part of DG, Daemon engines and plague marines. Most people are all about poxwalkers and terminators. Morty at 450pts is nice too.