Multiple template weapons clarification

[Valkyrion]

If you have 10 tactical support marines with flamers lined up like this;

Marine Marine Marine Marine Marine
Marine Marine Marine Marine Marine

E N E M I E S E N E M I E S E N E M I E S

E N E M I E S E N E M I E S E N E M I E S

Then the ones at the back cannot shoot because the template will pass over a friendly model.

But it could fire snap shots and make wall of death attacks with all 10 models.

Am I right on both counts?

 

[xxxjtmxxx]

i think the wording means other friendly units. So you can fire all 10 flamer

Edited February 23 by Xenith
double post

[SkimaskMohawk]

You can't fire all 10 in that configuration; the template rule  explicitly says you can't touch other models in the friendly unit.

You also don't get to choose to snap shot. Snap shot is due to circumstances and normally can't be done with weapons that don't use BS. Wall of death gives you permission to make them in the first place.

 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

9 hours ago, Valkyrion said:

If you have 10 tactical support marines with flamers lined up like this;

Marine Marine Marine Marine Marine
Marine Marine Marine Marine Marine

E N E M I E S E N E M I E S E N E M I E S

E N E M I E S E N E M I E S E N E M I E S

Then the ones at the back cannot shoot because the template will pass over a friendly model.

But it could fire snap shots and make wall of death attacks with all 10 models.

Am I right on both counts?

 

With regards to the back line, if you are within the 2" coherency you should be able to fit your templates through those gaps to allow all ten units to shoot. The base width of the flamer before it stretches outward is about .5~" before expanding out. So the two separate squads could both shoot at the same unit as long as the template does not touch friendly models.

However, the opponent could remove models in a way to disallow the second unit from causing any hits.

[Stitch5000]

12 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

You also don't get to choose to snap shot.

Have you refreshed yourself with how the Wall of Death rule is presented?

[SkimaskMohawk]

2 hours ago, Stitch5000 said:

Have you refreshed yourself with how the Wall of Death rule is presented?

Yes, of course I looked at the rule before commenting, and I can see how you're trying to make the argument. But, you're obviously not looking at the snap shots rules to fill out the context of wall of death.

Snap shots tell you you have to do them under specific circumstances. Choosing any non-flyer to shoot isn't a specific circumstance. Snap shots also tell you that weapons that don't use BS to fire can't snap shot; wall of death telling you you can is in reference to that. The range is because.... templates don't have an inherent range value. 

Maybe it could be cleaned up a bit, but RAI is rock solid, and you can only tray and make the raw argument if you don't look at the supporting rules. The exact opposite of what you're supposed to do with interpretation.

[Gorgoff]

On 6/29/2022 at 2:38 PM, xxxjtmxxx said:

i think the wording means other friendly units.

It says 'any friendly models' and not units. You can't fire over a friendly model. 

And  you can't make Snapshots willingly either. So the case is crystal clear.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Gorgoff

[Stitch5000]

1 hour ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Yes, of course I looked at the rule before commenting, and I can see how you're trying to make the argument. But, you're obviously not looking at the snap shots rules to fill out the context of wall of death.

Snap shots tell you you have to do them under specific circumstances. Choosing any non-flyer to shoot isn't a specific circumstance. Snap shots also tell you that weapons that don't use BS to fire can't snap shot; wall of death telling you you can is in reference to that. The range is because.... templates don't have an inherent range value. 

Maybe it could be cleaned up a bit, but RAI is rock solid, and you can only tray and make the raw argument if you don't look at the supporting rules. The exact opposite of what you're supposed to do with interpretation.

The Snaps Snots rule says they happen under certain circumstances and gives an example of the most common one, but that's not to say it's a comprehensive list. The Wall of Death rule under Template weapons says that Template weapons CAN Snap Shot, and when they do they use the Wall of Death rule (inflicting D3 hits). I'm not sure that the intent of the writer of these rules would ever be to run people around the houses, call out an exception and then on a following page undo that exception, especially when the Wall of Death rule has a useful effect of making flamers a bunch more useful when taken in big squads. 

Although, who are we to guess at Rules As Intended... We can only guess with our own interpretations or what is written. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

It's not a comprehensive list by any means, but it's not supposed to be; the various rules will tell you when you snap shot. Being told you can snap shoot with templates is permission overriding the rules on the snap shot page. 

And this game is filled to the brim with rules that make you run around and figure out the interactions. 

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

Mohawk and Gorgoff have it correct. You fire your weapon in the normal fashion unless specified otherwise. 

It's always called out when you don't fire normally, so you will be told if you can only fire snap shots. 

So in this instance you fire with your template, unless you're told otherwise (like when charged, you're told it fires using the wall of death rule). 

With regards to OPs first question, that's why you stagger front and back models so both ranks can fire, as the template isn't allowed to touch a friendly model, even in its own unit. 

[Valkyrion]

The snap shot part of the question was more like; if I WERE allowed to snap shot, then I could snap shot with all 10 models, because I wouldn't be using a template, but when shooting normally and positioned like that then half of my squad can't fire their weapons forwards. 

[Slips]

The thing is, baseline, weapons that are template based (blasts, flamer template) cannot fire snapshots to begin with.

Flamer templates then have the additional stipulation that, were they to overwatch, they would use wall of death instead of snap shooting - since they cant to begin with - which is the only situation that I know of that would allow all the models in the unit to fire their weapon even if, normally, there would be template-over-friendly overlaps preventing some models from firing.

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

Exactly slips, there's multiple mentions of blast not being allowed.

Also as far as I'm aware, overwatch doesn't stipulate snapshots in any case. Models are considered stationary and fire at normal BS.  Templates use the wall of death rule.  Pg160 of the rulebook. 

 

[Slips]

29 minutes ago, Altis said:

Exactly slips, there's multiple mentions of blast not being allowed.

Also as far as I'm aware, overwatch doesn't stipulate snapshots in any case. Models are considered stationary and fire at normal BS.  Templates use the wall of death rule.  Pg160 of the rulebook. 

 

Yeah Im still in the bad habit of mentioning things that were true in 1st ed that no longer are in 2nd ed despite the overall mechanic working pretty much the same.

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

It surprised me enough I had to double check it

[Valkyrion]

Forget snap shots then, it's being focussed on too much. With my squad laid out as above, could I wall of death with all 10 models, even though during normal shooting, only 5 could fire normally?

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

No, you can only use the wall of death rule if making a snapshot or an overwatch fire. Those are the only times you can fire without using the template. 

I'd say that if you're in range to fire though (8 inches for wall of death or snap shot, and the template is 8 inches) you would catch more models with your 5 templates than with d3 for each model (using the line up you posted originally). 

Remember that models can be hit multiple times from different templates, and you determine hits for ALL templates before you move onto wounding and model removal. 

If you staggered your unit so there's gap between the front rank and the second rank sit behind in that gap, you should be able to fire all 10 (range permitting). 

 

[Valkyrion]

I'm sorry if this is becoming circular, but I understand the template, overwatch, snapshots and wall of death rules....

What I'm asking is if all 10 of my models arranged as above could make a wall of death attack, assuming all other criteria fits, or am I prevented from doing so because when shooting normally, the five models in the back row would be unable to fire at all. 

[Slips]

17 minutes ago, Valkyrion said:

I'm sorry if this is becoming circular, but I understand the template, overwatch, snapshots and wall of death rules....

What I'm asking is if all 10 of my models arranged as above could make a wall of death attack, assuming all other criteria fits, or am I prevented from doing so because when shooting normally, the five models in the back row would be unable to fire at all. 

Wall of death bypasses that restriction for firing and all the models in the unit with LoS would be able to WoD.

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

Hi valkyrion, no problem at all, I see you're asking explicitly if during a snapshot/overwatch event all 10 can use wall of death, and the answer to that is yes, assuming they are in 8 inch range or being charged. 

They aren't using the template for that, it's an auto d3 hits, and that was what was preventing the back row from firing. 

Apologies for getting hung up on normal firing, I had it in my head you were trying a normal shooting action, but we're trying to activate wall of death. 

[Valkyrion]

5 hours ago, Altis said:

Hi valkyrion, no problem at all, I see you're asking explicitly if during a snapshot/overwatch event all 10 can use wall of death, and the answer to that is yes, assuming they are in 8 inch range or being charged. 

They aren't using the template for that, it's an auto d3 hits, and that was what was preventing the back row from firing. 

Apologies for getting hung up on normal firing, I had it in my head you were trying a normal shooting action, but we're trying to activate wall of death. 

There's never an apology needed to me, whatever the topic, and I could have been much clearer, to be fair, but we got there in the end so thanks!

[Helix]

Apologies on reviving an older post, but I've got two questions related to this topic.

 

1. Does each individual model need to have LoS to be able to do a WoD? For example half the unit is behind LoS blocking terrain, the other half has LoS and is within 8".

 

2. Does each individual model need to be within 8" to be able to do a WoD? For example the unit is stretched out and with half being within 8" and the other half outside of 8".

 

What I think the case is that each model does need LoS, but only one needs to be within 8". Just seems odd that normally these two elements are tied together, but not in this case.