Sisters and Nephilim

[FelipeFlops]

Doesn't look like anyone has made a Sisters focused discussion here on the Nephilim changes. So here goes!

Secondaries Changes;

Assassinate - Now for a character UNIT. So no more 9 victory points for killing Celestine + Geminae!

Can take any number of faction secondaries now.

Slay the Heretic - Now 5 victory points per weapon, might be a bit easier to score, but still not the first one we'll choose.

Defend the Shrine - We now get to pick the objective! Though now a chance to lose 3 victory points at the end of the game if opponent controls the objective. Should be a lot easier to score now, but of course with the additional end of game risk.

Sacred Grounds - This looks very easy to score now. Multiple units can perform action a turn, and only have to be controlling objective to start the action.

A Leap of Faith - No changes at all... An auto take.

Points Changes:

HQ;

Triumph of Saint Katherine - 200pts (-20)

Troops;

N/A

Elites;

Celestian - 12pts pm (-1)

Celestian Sacresants - 14pts pm (-2)

Fast Attack;

Seraphim - 12pts pm (-2)

Zephyrim - 15pt pm (-2)

Heavy Support;

Castigator - 135pts (-15)

Exorcist - 130pts (-10)

Penitent Engines - 50pts pm (-5)

Retributors - Simalcrum +5ps

Transports;

Immolator - 100pts (-10)

 

All in all, we seem to have made out like bandits!

 

[WAR]

Overall I was very happy with changes I saw via rumors and WarComm. 

[Emperor Ming]

Points drops are welcome, but points aint the problem for certain units like the walkers, exorcists, basic sisters squads. Only datasheet updates will sort them out now

[MoshJason]

I am really happy with Celestians hitting 12 ppm -- I guess this is as cheap as they can get!

I know they aren't great, but I have always like them, and a squad or two near a canoness throws out a decent amount of Hitting on 2's Rerolling 1's shots/melee attacks. 

 

I don't think Basic Sisters need to get any cheaper -- Armor of Contempt is a big boost to them. They now feel much better than they did previously, and getting them into cover makes them really hard to remove without throwing serious fire power at them.

Edited July 6, 2022 by MoshJason

[Tokugawa]

Sisters has (arguably) the best faction secondaries pack. No matter what the opponent and mission map is, sisters player could comfortably pick 2 even 3 faction secondaries.

[Blurf]

9 hours ago, Tokugawa said:

Sisters has (arguably) the best faction secondaries pack. No matter what the opponent and mission map is, sisters player could comfortably pick 2 even 3 faction secondaries.

Defend the shrine is basically just Stranglehold but easier. In an even game you'll almost always score 15 going first and 12 going second. Leap is an easy 12. The other objective one is almost guaranteed to get 11 and is super easy to score 15 on going second.

[Lemondish]

JLennon of the Art of War talks about the Adepta Sororitas in Nephilim over at Goonhammer here: https://www.goonhammer.com/nephilim-faction-focus-john-lennon-talks-adepta-sororitas/

Fun read! 

[Tokugawa]

Mani Cheema won a 60 players major with sisters.

https://web.bestcoastpairings.com/event-placings.php?eventId=CoVmD23rB2

 

Bad news, reeeally bad news for sisters. We all known what "Mani began to play your faction" means.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Tokugawa

[Lemondish]

4 hours ago, Tokugawa said:

Mani Cheema won a 60 players major with sisters.

https://web.bestcoastpairings.com/event-placings.php?eventId=CoVmD23rB2

 

Bad news, reeeally bad news for sisters. We all known what "Mani began to play your faction" means.

Looks like there was quite a lot of representation in the top 10. In addition to Mani, James Shapiro placed 5th, Vik Vajay 6th, and Ben Jones took 9th. 

All with nearly identical Bloody Rose lists.

It is still very early, but I imagine if any nerfs are due, it will likely come in one of three flavours: nerfs to popular units, nerfs to secondary scoring, or nerfs to Bloody Rose exclusively. Duh, I guess. 

But we all know that it's likely a combination of the strong secondary game and BR bringing so much good stuff. 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Lemondish

[Tokugawa]

54 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

Looks like there was quite a lot of representation in the top 10. In addition to Mani, James Shapiro placed 5th, Vik Vajay 6th, and Ben Jones took 9th. 

All with nearly identical Bloody Rose lists.

It is still very early, but I imagine if any nerfs are due, it will likely come in one of three flavours: nerfs to popular units, nerfs to secondary scoring, or nerfs to Bloody Rose exclusively. Duh, I guess. 

But we all know that it's likely a combination of the strong secondary game and BR bringing so much good stuff. 

GW: there is a 4th plan of nerf: all of the above 3.

[FelipeFlops]

6 hours ago, Tokugawa said:

GW: there is a 4th plan of nerf: all of the above 3.

To shreds you say? Oh my.  

[Lemondish]

It seems Bloody Rose using the same core list is the absolute best choice competitively in Nephilim. The overrepresentation of Bloody Rose can mostly be attributed to gamewide core changes.

Bloody Rose was always highly represented for melee units, but back when we could run multiple Orders at a time at least the lists had varieties like mobile Argent Shroud cores, or resilient Valorous Heart ones, or utility granted from Ebon Chalice warlords. Most of these lists only included some token BR representation just because they are so good with melee units, but the core of the list was always elsewhere. Now this is no longer an option.

For Argent Shroud, their death was when they released the FAQ that clarified remains stationary for transports, and while that was already really dependent on TO, it was the final nail in the coffin for them.

Valorous Heart lists died with AoC, which on the surface might sound a tad contradictory, but because their list focus was on large, resilient blocks of Sacresants that now do not benefit from AoC (though they did benefit from the VH trait)...well, it means they're squishier now. A squishier anvil doesn't do them any favours, and the replacement trait is too situational compared to the awesome always on value Bloody Rose brings.

Then with the Nephilim CP changes we saw the death of the CP hungry Martyred Lady lists. While that supplement really brought some great tools for crafting unique characters and stratagems, it was CP hungry. Doable with a starting allotment of 12...not so capable now. 

Not many of these changes were, strictly speaking, directed at Sisters. They still resulted in a nerf to every varied option before landing on the only competitively viable option left, which was always the source of the Sororitas biggest internal imbalance to begin with. 

[EmperorGTank]

I am hoping that when nerfs almost inevitably come they will be to our secondary objectives. Personally I am not sure why Sacred Grounds went from 4VP to 5VP for objectives in no man's land and while Defend the Shrine needed to get better to see play it either needs to get scored during your next Command Phase or your opponent has to choose the shrine objective again. Leap is already reigned in due to the max of 12 points so I think that is the probably the most tame currently.

As far as points nerfs, Zephyrim going to 16 or back to 17 would be fine, they didn't need a buff at all so not sure why they received one. Honestly if you think about it other than Dominions needing to go back to 12 and Vahl probably needing to go back to 260 or at least 270 now that Abaddon is running around at 300, our unit points are pretty okay for the most part. Those Exorcist Missiles NEED to be less than 30 points though. if I can take that Castigator Battle Cannon for 5 then I should be able to take 3d3 weaker AP -2 Missiles for 10 points at most. Make the Exorcist 140 for the Rockets and 150 for the Missiles if you do not intend to give it T8/12 Wounds/AP -3 (-2 for the Rockets) back. I would even say a return to AP -4 for those Missiles like they were for most of 8th would be fine at this point with where the game is, but I recognize why they were lowered to AP -3 and felt it was fair in the 8th codex. AP -2 was already horrible since it made them no better than Krak missiles, which in the lore they are NOT, and AoC just made AP -2 almost worthless. Exorcist Missiles have always been equivalent to a melta bomb packed into a missile and there should be a distinct difference between Vahl's Paragon Missiles and Exorcist Missiles. The only way they would be almost worth 30 points is if you could take the weapon and choose which firing mode you wanted each time you shot with it, either the anti-infantry or anti-tank profile. Even then I'd say 20 points max if they remain such low AP but you know me, still salty about the unit that made me love Sisters getting nerfed into the ground this whole edition.

I still love Sisters and I love that we are a "top tier faction" again while still not being TOO oppressive (at least relatively speaking compared to the previous age of armies like Dark Eldar/Admech/Tau/Custodes/Tyranids) but I would be fine with a few targeted nerfs to at least one of our secondary objectives and Zephyrim. There are still things about our book that do not feel as fluffy as they could, but I am hoping those things get rectified in the next edition (9.5/10th?) probably coming out next year.

[Lemondish]

I'm agreed on nearly everything you said @EmperorGTank, except for Zephyrim. I think their cost is definitely in the right spot for everybody that isn't Bloody Rose. 

I'm not yet convinced the secondaries Sacred Grounds and Defend the Shrine are as much of an issue when it seems like both are just perfectly designed for an aggressive army like BR, so it feels like a force multiplier when Leap of Faith just bestows free points. I think you're probably right on the suggested changes provided Leap doesn't change, though at this stage the biggest culprit in my opinion is probably Leap anyway. At least the opponent has ways to impact your score with the other two, but Leap is literally just 12 points for playing the army for 5 rounds. I think the army would be just a tad less potent if that secondary was removed entirely, and nothing of interest would be lost. 

[EmperorGTank]

I agree with your assessment of Zephyrim and Leap @Lemondish! There is no doubt that 15 points for Zephyrim is a good thing for the rest of the non-BR Orders, I just think with BR always kicking around in the top spot you need to price them with that in mind. This is why I would be okay if they went to 16, though I do think 17 is just a bit much when you might need to spend 2CP to get them wounding their target on a reasonable number (3s or even 4s). 

The lack of interactivity other armies have with Leap is definitely a problem, but that particular secondary is incredibly fluffy for the faction and the only reason it is such an auto include right now is because GW pretty much went back to the Miracle Dice rules from our 8th edition book a few balance dataslates ago.  I don't think I agree a full removal, but I agree more interactivity is definitely needed. The main issue is that either that Secondary is an easy 12 points for us or almost worthless if we go back to the base of 1 MD each battle round.

I think if GW hits Sacred Grounds and Shrine in some (hopefully) small way, Leap can stay and BR armies can move from truly "S" tier to something more akin to the top or upper half of "A" tier which would bring them in line with about half a dozen other factions. That would be great for the game!

[Lemondish]

I will say that Bloody Rose and their place in today's meta are not necessarily bad for the game. They aren't nearly at the same level of dominance that we've seen in the past with overtuned factions, which is great. Sure, they're highly represented, but I'm not convinced they're quite the same monster as the other meta warping factions we've seen across the last two editions. They can be beaten, and they take a lot of skill to pilot even if the secondaries are easy enough to score. I personally want to see it become less about Bloody Rose using the same cookie cutter list, so that's why after more thought I'm inclined to target them with adjustments rather than the secondaries or points costs. That obviously doesn't mean it's the only way to success - some factions have fans that would love to see one of their subfactions represented like this even if as a Sisters fan I kinda hate how it feels like it's always the same exact list doing everything and there's really only smallish changes. I miss when we had the multi-order lists with like Ebon Chalice cores for the Warlord trait, or Argent Shroud cores alongside the BR melee nonsense, or VH bricks holding the centre (also alongside BR nonsense). They felt varied enough. Pre-AoC and Nephilim CP changes the OoML lists with the massive BSS block really appealed to me as well. 

I have my own wishlist for future sisters changes bouncing around in my head but i suppose that's just the first step on the road to mild disappointment lol

[EmperorGTank]

I would personally also love to see Bloody Rose not become the default option. I miss the days of multiple subfactions as well, and I have been primarily an Ebon Chalice and Valorous player for most of 8th and 9th edition. Up until the AoC changes I was primarily running Valorous Heart lists and have now only switched to Bloody Rose lists because I know if I am entering a tournament anytime soon they are obviously the way to play. For most games, however, I still play either VH or EC or my own personal custom Minoris Order (which usually fights like EC and VH anyway getting mini-transhuman and the master artisans-like rerolls when a unit shoots or fights). With where the faction currently is, however, I would still much rather see a boost to the other Major Orders than a targeted attack on Bloody Rose itself. if every other way to play Sisters is somewhere in "A" tier and Bloody Rose is "S" tier then I would rather see the other Orders get some kind of Supplement support and be elevated to "S" like Bloody Rose is. This is mostly with the understanding that, like you have said, Bloody Rose lists are not nearly as oppressive as the previous factions who have been on top this edition (Tau, Custodes, Harlequins, Admech, Dark Eldar). However, I also recognize that if I would prefer all the Orders to also become S tier and leave all Sisters lists alone at the top of the meta, then that may not necessarily be good for the game itself. This is why I think a hit to at least one of our secondary objectives would go a long way to just moving BR back to A tier and maybe every other Order to low A or high B tier. I think I would prefer to have Bloody Rose at A instead of S, because then if and when the other Major Orders get some kind of additional support, they are just moving back to A tier instead of S as well. 

I guess what I am trying to say is that after over two decades of feeling underrepresented and neglected, having two editions in a row where we have been consistently at the top of the pack at certain points (and even at the worst of it only being "mid/mediocre") has just felt great and if we are not causing too many NPE's and being too oppressive, then I see no reason to fix too much about us. As long as we are not truly ruining the game or the experience for others at events or in casual matches, then a slight fix should be all that is needed to keep us in line as a great army, but not truly the "top" faction. Regardless, I will enjoy our time in the spotlight for now and when the inevitable heavy handed nerf comes, I will just hope it's not as heavy handed as it could have been!

[Blurf]

On 7/25/2022 at 11:02 AM, Lemondish said:

I will say that Bloody Rose and their place in today's meta are not necessarily bad for the game. They aren't nearly at the same level of dominance that we've seen in the past with overtuned factions, which is great. Sure, they're highly represented, but I'm not convinced they're quite the same monster as the other meta warping factions we've seen across the last two editions. They can be beaten, and they take a lot of skill to pilot even if the secondaries are easy enough to score. I personally want to see it become less about Bloody Rose using the same cookie cutter list, so that's why after more thought I'm inclined to target them with adjustments rather than the secondaries or points costs. That obviously doesn't mean it's the only way to success - some factions have fans that would love to see one of their subfactions represented like this even if as a Sisters fan I kinda hate how it feels like it's always the same exact list doing everything and there's really only smallish changes. I miss when we had the multi-order lists with like Ebon Chalice cores for the Warlord trait, or Argent Shroud cores alongside the BR melee nonsense, or VH bricks holding the centre (also alongside BR nonsense). They felt varied enough. Pre-AoC and Nephilim CP changes the OoML lists with the massive BSS block really appealed to me as well. 

I have my own wishlist for future sisters changes bouncing around in my head but i suppose that's just the first step on the road to mild disappointment lol

We're a mild repentia nerf away from a 50% winrate currently, even with how good our secondaries are. The current 59% winrate is a house of cards even with our insanely good secondaries.