Horus Heresy and “chapters” as acceptable lore

[Bloodwraith]

So I have a question. We know the legions had chapters and companies. Many of these Chapters and companies would have unique names and identities and later go onto become 2nd founding successor chapters. I have my 2nd founding DIY the Blood wraiths. I want to adjust the lore to say they were the 9th Chapter of the Blood Angels legion and paint them in my chapter colors but play them as Blood Angels in the HH. They would be Blood Angels from a battle force of its 9th chapter called the Blood Wraiths. Would people have a problem with this both game and lore wise?  There symbol is obviously the same as my B and C icon. Colors are still Black and Red just in a slightly different pattern which also happened within the legions of the time. Just looking for thoughts as I prepare to paint my HH Army.

[Spagunk]

18 minutes ago, Bloodwraith said:

So I have a question. We know the legions had chapters and companies. Many of these Chapters and companies would have unique names and identities and later go onto become 2nd founding successor chapters. I have my 2nd founding DIY the Blood wraiths. I want to adjust the lore to say they were the 9th Chapter of the Blood Angels legion and paint them in my chapter colors but play them as Blood Angels in the HH. They would be Blood Angels from a battle force of its 9th chapter called the Blood Wraiths. Would people have a problem with this both game and lore wise?  There symbol is obviously the same as my B and C icon. Colors are still Black and Red just in a slightly different pattern which also happened within the legions of the time. Just looking for thoughts as I prepare to paint my HH Army.

Problem? I doubt it as long as you just stick to BA rules.

Cannon? Not really but then chapters and companies were rather large.

There's nothing to say that a cadre of individuals would identify as a best friends squad known as XYZ. In a pinch you can always run them as "Shattered Legions" if you want since right now that is not defined and could easily just be X legion with either the Loyalist or Traitor warlord trait.

If someone has a problem with it, they were probably not very fun to play with anyway: Don't need that negativity in your life.

 

Edited June 30, 2022 by Spagunk

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

26 minutes ago, Bloodwraith said:

So I have a question. We know the legions had chapters and companies. Many of these Chapters and companies would have unique names and identities and later go onto become 2nd founding successor chapters. I have my 2nd founding DIY the Blood wraiths. I want to adjust the lore to say they were the 9th Chapter of the Blood Angels legion and paint them in my chapter colors but play them as Blood Angels in the HH. They would be Blood Angels from a battle force of its 9th chapter called the Blood Wraiths. Would people have a problem with this both game and lore wise?  There symbol is obviously the same as my B and C icon. Colors are still Black and Red just in a slightly different pattern which also happened within the legions of the time. Just looking for thoughts as I prepare to paint my HH Army.

I'd be down to play against someone that had put the effort in to make their army have some back story and personal heraldry! 

As already stated, as long as you're using standard BA rules and everything is wysiwyg then play on mate! 

[bushman101]

In the Loyalist book (BA section), you can see some of the icons for what would become chapter symbols painted on the leg armor of some of the marines.

If you follow your plan for a slightly altered paint scheme and add your symbol to the leg, you'll be golden.

And not all of the 2nd founder chapters are 'known', so there is freedom there

[Dont-Be-Haten]

22 minutes ago, Bloodwraith said:

So I have a question. We know the legions had chapters and companies. Many of these Chapters and companies would have unique names and identities and later go onto become 2nd founding successor chapters. I have my 2nd founding DIY the Blood wraiths. I want to adjust the lore to say they were the 9th Chapter of the Blood Angels legion and paint them in my chapter colors but play them as Blood Angels in the HH. They would be Blood Angels from a battle force of its 9th chapter called the Blood Wraiths. Would people have a problem with this both game and lore wise?  There symbol is obviously the same as my B and C icon. Colors are still Black and Red just in a slightly different pattern which also happened within the legions of the time. Just looking for thoughts as I prepare to paint my HH Army.

This is answered in a multitude of ways. First,fa all chapters bear the blood angels insignia, yet their company markings of the 300 chapters are represented on a knee pad etc. This is noted by the Flesh Eaters chapter symbol in gold.

There is always going to be some variation to armor color but Amit of the Flesh Tearers wore his armor in the same color as the blood angels themselves. At the very least any renditions I've seen of him is either in that color red, or in ceremonial attire when he fights Khârn in their honor duel.

Also as far as color variations go, this can be answered by the black shield clause in the HH. many legionaires changed their armor color when they became blackshields. This could be denoted as traitor Blood Angels or loyalist that are on the galactic edge etc.

Ultimately the answer that can always be given is, they are your miniatures paint them how you want! I suspect that people will not have a problem with your head Canon. I wouldn't.

[sarabando]

i am currently doing something that is exactly this. My stance on this is aslong as they are still clearly the original legion then go for it. Im currently doing an ultramarine successor but ive decided on normal ultras colour shoulders and icons with the chapter icon only on characters,

[Noserenda]

There are loads of examples of Legions wearing variant heraldry throughout the Heresy for all sorts of reasons so it should be fine, especially if you are just adding some black and switching around badges. Id try to get some Legion numbers on there though :) 

 

[Bloodwraith]

Thank you all! My inspiration is I love my Homebrew and have always been a HH fan but really only wanted to jump into it if I could find a way with my Blood Wraiths. The 2nd founding was the largest until the Ultima with the 3rd founding being next. We know the 3rd founding Dorn approved over 200 writs of creation. In the 2nd based on what each legion had left after the scouring it is reasonable to believe the Ultras gave birth to anywhere between 100-200 chapters alone. The Blood Angles were likely down to between 30-50 thousand by then so anywhere between 20-50 chapters could have BA lineage. Now these are rough numbers but even the Imperial Fist likely sired  around 10-20 with many un named. With all that said my plan is as follows. There Chest, arms, backpack and shoulders will be black. Helmet red with black stripe. Legs and abdomen red. The black is a mark of shame the painted for some failure this chapter had to the legion. I will likely put the chapter symbol on the shoulder (I have glue on icons not decals for their symbol) and BA symbol on the right shin. Legion number and campaign marking on the left shin. The Chapter symbol during the time of the HH is actually a mark of Shame. Likely because they were either over aggressive in their pursuit of an objective and Sanguinius remarks that they acted like savage animals/Wraiths and not like Angels in the conflict they bear the markings of shame for or something similar. Also the markings were self imposed because of their Primarchs comments and not a direct punishment by him.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Just so you are aware, nothing wrong with your head Canon, but black was the color of the death sworn. These were the guys who couldn't control their red thirst or some other unforgivable deed and were sentenced to die in battle, or st the hand of Sanguinius himself to those fully lost to the Thirst.

I'm only acknowledging this so you can explain to the die hards the difference. Easily they paint their armor black as a reflection to their sins.

 

[Bloodwraith]

I was aware of that. But Thank you for pointing it out and it is useful to incorporate. Likely It’s why their scheme is not all black. Possibly their shameful act was many did give into the thirst, not at a level of someone deserving the mark of the death sworn but bad enough to draw Sanguinius ire. This became so shameful to them that their black armor markings is their own self appointed death sentence/sacrifice which fits greatly with their 40K lore. They were /are hyper aggressive and launch themselves into the Vanguard of every encounter they are part of. They refuse reinforcements to the chapter (during the heresy) only taking in those with similar acts of shame that chose to or ask to join the 99th.

[Gorgoff]

I am not a fan of chapters in HH. If you play them as Blackshields it is ok but when you play BA they should look like the part. 

[Bloodwraith]

Well thank you for your opinion. But I’ll go with the larger part of the groups recommendations. But I understand your point.

[Pacific81]

This is a really interesting topic Bloodwraith, I hope you don't mind but I have some observations about how Horus Heresy has developed that I'd like to share as a grognard's ramblings! 

Rick Priestly has said when he first envisaged the Heresy that they deliberately chose 10,000 years before the current (40k) timeline because it was such a long period in the past that it would be lost in myth with names that historians would know very little about. If you think in our own history events historians cannot agree whether characters (from much shorter periods of time ago) are real or not, or were even multiple individuals combined under a single name were real (think of some of the dark-age British kings, or Homer for example). 

It then started to get fleshed out with the first edition of Epic (Space Marine) in the late 80s - apparently it was prosaic as they needed a reason for marines to be fighting marines as they could only include one troop type on the sprue! This established the basic lore for the Heresy (sadly I have forgotten who wrote it - Bill King perhaps?) and a lot of the main elements that we know now about the story were put in place there (the Istvaan betrayal, which Legions turned traitor and which remained loyal, the final showdown between the Emperor and Horus at Terra etc.) 

What's interesting is how the representation on the tabletop has changed over the past few decades. Epic itself changed to the 40k setting and then there was very little in the 28mm world until the Horus Heresy trading card game appeared and following it the Horus Heresy artbooks. These were a real catalyst for hobbyists and a community swelled up around forums and player groups in the early 00s all based on that artwork and speculation about it. As the artwork was quite 'loose' (there were some very liberal interpretations of marines and their wargear from the large number of artists included in the TCG project, some of whom I don't think were that familiar with 40k lore, to entertaining results!) What this meant was that when I attended some of those early events run by the Great Crusade Forum and The Tempus Fugitives amongst others you had some absolutely mad (but extremely creative!) interpretations of Pre-Heresy armies; this was before any official GW/FW miniatures so everything was converted or garage cast, colours were all over the place (like the art books, you wouldn't see Sons of Horus in the same colours twice, with everything from dark green to metallic). There were even a few attempts at the 'lost legions' - back then we had very little lore, so why not? - in fact Graham McNeil even wrote a bit of lore for one event (the Primarch was named Malibron and he was a very naughty boy!). But in short, absolutely everything went on the tabletop. If I tell you around that time I used to have people come over and ask what my army was, I would reply Pre-Heresy World Eaters, and they would ask "but why are they not red?" (and this happened a few times) it will tell you how little 30k was known at that time, amongst GW hobbyists. 

What has happened in the past decade or more has seen a complete reversal of this. Following the BL book series and the FW Black Books a lot of the detail of the period is extremely well proscribed, down to unit designations, marks of armour, and which Primarch slapped which other Primarch in the face at a given battle. The change I have seen is that 30k is becoming almost like a kind of historical gaming, and for anyone that has played historical gaming will know this, where you will read the word 'rivet counter' used quite often; essentially it describes how history buffs can be almost obsessive about accuracy in their games, down to type of hats worn by soldiers (shakos in the Napoleonic Wars is a good one!) or types of tank in WW2 in a given year. Where the 'line' falls for most historical gamers I think varies; I will say generally most probably won't mind if you have the wrong type of Sherman tank a year early in the war, but if a Gloster Meteor started shooting down Stukas in 1939, or if Hannibal crossed the Alps on his elephants to be met by cruise missiles, it wouldn't go down well. I think it's probably quite similar with 30k and 40k gamers, even though the universe has been that more heavily described now there is still a line people will draw. I saw a quite amusing video recently where someone was really upset about playing someone that was fielding both the standard versions and daemon primarch versions of Magnus the Red in a single game; although I found his (very sweary) protestations quite unintentionally amusing, I kind of knew where he was coming from. 

Is anyone still reading?! So to bring back to the OP, I think the point I have been trying to make is that in 2022 we have a lot less real estate in which to let our imaginations and creativity run wild than we did back in 2004, at least for the period of the Heresy itself. If you have your own creation taking part in the battles on Istvaan or Sol, people will ask, well why didn't I read about this or see any artwork in the thousands of pages that have been written on it? I think this is a fair question and so I don't think its completely reasonable to be upset if people tend to turn into rivet counters on that occasion - your army won't fit with the fictional universe they have created within their own heads. 

That being said, 30k can be (and never will be) as well described as a ('modern' at least) historical wargame and I think there will always be breathing room. The legions contained thousands (sometimes tens of thousands) of marines that had been fighting all over the galaxy. Who is to say that some individual styles didn't develop during particular campaigns or over periods of time? You also have a really big grey area both during the Great Crusade and also following the events of the Heresy itself, where there is still a lot more room for creativity and introducing your own ideas. Part of me really hopes that they keep it this way, for this very reason, as it does let people do their own thing - which did always used to be a big part of what this hobby is about. Anyway, sorry for rambling, but that's my thoughts on it! 

[Bloodwraith]

Well as a 48 year old retired soldier and military historian who has also been playing since rogue trader myself I get what you are saying. That said the legions were huge and there are countless number of examples of individuals, companies and chapters within the legions using their own heraldry. The purpose of my post was to try to gauge the community on what would be the obstacles. I think a unit within a legion having heraldry slightly different than the main legion is actually somewhat common. Specialist units ect have different schemes ect. Using them as a shamed chapter taking the black on their own within existing lore and still being Blood Angels with BA markings and chapter insignia  is not out of character especially since we do not have a breakdown by legion of all the chapters and variations. If I was making them purple or green or orange or saying they were some special snow flakes I would understand, the Flesh Tearers, Blood Drinkers, Flesh Eaters etc all have their origins in some way in the Heresy. I think I have found an feasible way in Lore to link my DIY to my Heresy experience. To be honest I have always loved the lore and always saw the intentional gaps in it as openings for the fans to create even in the Heresy. I honestly avoided playing heresy because I already have a HUGE 40K force I have been building of my Blood Wraiths since back in the RT days and in my area I have been, the HH community was small, a bit obnoxious/rude and we’re gatekeepers and that was kind of the feeling of all the other gamers in the area too. So didn’t feel the need back then. Now I am overseas and the people here in Poland seem much more open so I thought I’d dive in. As far as Istavaan, we’ll I wouldn’t play an istavaan scenario as a Blood Angel player anyway. Defense of Terra, easy they are the 99th Chapter of the Blood Angels and they were there like the rest of the legion. There were countless heroes and deeds that were not recorded from that time so they could have easily been there and fought at some of the lesser written of or recorded battles. Also their Praetor just goes on to be their first chapter master etc to tie into 40K story. I guess I just view this game and the lore as open and fluid with room for the players to fill the gaps in the narrative just like 40K. Again the 30 k lore around the primarchs and major events is solid. But there are a lot of details open because the units and details of the legions were not specified at that level. Truthfully if someone I go to play is so obsessive over it I wouldn’t enjoy playing that person anyway. Ultimately at my age Warhammer is a passion and past time but nothing I would draw lines in the sand over and I wouldn’t waste my time on people who do. I would thank them for their opinion and wish them a good day and go play someone else.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

There's nothing wrong with having your own campaigns in 30k that tell of stories of fragmented legion fleets all conversing to a single location.

That allows for more inclusion into games. I've taken the liberty to put squad markings on my Raven Guard so it's easier to differentiate them once I have 2 tactical squads with identical load outs in melee together.

Being able to be inclusive allows for more people to enjoy the hobby.

Like a 1 or 2 off of Mark VII or even modern bolters sprinkled into an army isn't going to be a deal breaker for me. Obviously there are several limitations such as doing Instvaan V battles but otherwise I'm the kind of person who is much more open about throwing dice.

[Arkhanist]

The fundamental idea of painting a variant scheme is absolutely fine - The BA had 120,000 marines split up into roughly 300 companies, so there's a lot of scope for your personal touch, where plenty has been left undocumented. Red and black isn't even that different from the standard scheme, and you have fluff justification for it, so no problem!

The bulk of the BA spent the early heresy at Signus, then via Ultramar before moving to slow down the traitor march on Terra, and its final defence, so while they weren't at Istvaan, there's scope for a detached group of Angels to be involved in many of the lesser battles, or attached to another legion for major ones e.g. if they weren't able to get back and muster for Signus in time, or were a garrison force left behind when the Heresy kicked off etc. And they were involved in multiple fights in the latter stages at legion strength once they left Ultramar.

There are some things that will tend to raise eyebrows; rocking up with a 40k army in mark VII; or worse, primaris and going 'yup, that's my heresy army' is probably the biggest. For a beginner, or proxying them to learn the rules that's obviously different, but a heresy army is a different project than a 40k, so should be its own thing - BECAUSE it's mostly marines, the little things matter more, I think. It used to be mark VI was only really seen much at the tail end of the heresy, now we've reverted to the original Epic lore where mark VI was much more widespread (the original Space Marine marines were in mark VI IIRC). So anything from mark II to VI is fine, but mark VII should only show up in limited amounts at the Siege itself as it was artificer produced. That said, there's plenty of scope for variation in bits and weapons given the parlous logistics during the heresy, with forge worlds making their own patterns with what they had and all the legions fighting for resupply, not just the shattered legions.

Personally, I think the BA heresy-era symbol (with the straight wings) or XI symbol should be the most prominent iconography as legion was generally more important than company; but a smaller 'chapter' symbol elsewhere such as knee or leg would be fine and fluffy based on current art, perhaps associated with their praetor's heraldry.

[Gorgoff]

9 hours ago, Bloodwraith said:

Well thank you for your opinion. But I’ll go with the larger part of the groups recommendations. But I understand your point.

That's good because my intention wasn't at all to steal your thunder. If you like it who am I to judge? :)

 

[Bloodwraith]

All good brother! I get your feelings we don’t have to agree on every subject to enjoy the hobbies we love.

[jaxom]

13 hours ago, Bloodwraith said:

I was aware of that. But Thank you for pointing it out and it is useful to incorporate. Likely It’s why their scheme is not all black. Possibly their shameful act was many did give into the thirst, not at a level of someone deserving the mark of the death sworn but bad enough to draw Sanguinius ire. This became so shameful to them that their black armor markings is their own self appointed death sentence/sacrifice which fits greatly with their 40K lore. They were /are hyper aggressive and launch themselves into the Vanguard of every encounter they are part of. They refuse reinforcements to the chapter (during the heresy) only taking in those with similar acts of shame that chose to or ask to join the 99th.

Reading your lore and looking at the Chapter symbol, I think it all works very well with a group that are primarily Revenant Legion, pre-Sanguinius veterans. The Primarch doesn't like the reminder of what the legion used to be like (from those who didn't quite get on board the Warrior Virtues band wagon) and often used them as separated forces, away from the main legion. We know many such forces ended up developing idiosyncrasies and marking variations.  

[Bloodwraith]

That is actually a brilliant idea I didn’t think about!!!! Thank you!!!!!

[TimeHoopin]

Hey Bloodwraith -  the 9th Chapter of the Blood Angels would go on to become the Angels Vermillion. They were involved in the Scouring of the Nostramo sector after the Heresy. I'm not at all trying to say you shouldn't go ahead with your plan (I think it is a cool idea) but I know how much investment there is in making an army and thought it would be worth noting!

[Bloodwraith]

Mine is the 99th, not the 9th but yes thank you for the info and support. 

Edited July 3, 2022 by Bloodwraith

[Jamafore]

Just an idea for markings that would silence most folks, keep all the markings on the shoulders, but have the legion marking on one, and the chapter/company marking on the other. I don't believe the squad designation markings ALWAYS being on the right shoulder is set in proverbial stone until after the heresy with the codex, so you could quite easily use that shoulder for the chapter/company marking there and put the squad designation somewhere else, like the leg for example. Just a thought

 

Also the best way I can think of to answer the "Why didn't I read about them?" question is either, "They weren't in that particular area of the fight" or even better, "They were there, but were a little busy to be worrying about the exact shade of red or whatever of the guys fighting a hundred yards thataway."

Edited July 26, 2022 by Jamafore